Home | Community | Message Board


Phytoextractum
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Original Seeds Store Shop: Buy CBD, Cannabis Seeds, Compare CBD

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
morality and the law
    #1040582 - 11/10/02 10:31 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I was just reading Rail Gun's insanely absurd post about Democrats, and it got me thinking about the role of morality in creating laws. I don't think that morals have a place in the process of deciding laws.

But I'm still not sure what I think about what role they should play in this life.

peas and hominy
hongomon



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: morality and the law [Re: hongomon]
    #1040681 - 11/10/02 11:54 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Hi hongomon!  Nice to see you posting. :smile:

Since all laws have a moral base what other base do you think we should use?  Or are you saying there should be no laws?

Cheers,


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineLearyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 30,046
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 21 minutes, 51 seconds
Re: morality and the law [Re: hongomon]
    #1040858 - 11/10/02 01:49 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

All non-violent "crimes" are legislated morality.

That's all I know.



--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: Park Avenue Playground - The Trip



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: morality and the law [Re: ]
    #1041678 - 11/10/02 09:18 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

It is illegal to murder because doing so violates the rights of another, it is not morality that dictates the law.

It is illegal to steal because it violates anothers right to own, not because of morality.

Laws are designed to uphold the constitution not to impose morality.

Because someone steals without violence doesn't make it morally sound. It is illegal because you took someones property.

There are those that would arguee that constitutional freedoms are based on morality. I would arguee that they are based on SELF-INTEREST.

Morality is used to justify infringing on the constitutional rights of individuals who are not violating others constituional rights. DRUG PROHIBITITON. CENSORSHIP. ANTI-ABORTION LEGISLATION.

A moralist would want to get rid of pornography because it is against their sense of morality. A constitutionalist would allow pornography to exist because they don't want to prevent someone from having access to something, even if they are morally opposed to it. The constitutionalist will only limit Pornography at the point where it violates someones constituitional freedom. Like Child pornography. Even though some freak will have his rights violated by not having access to the KIDDIE PORN, the rights of the CHILD in the porn to not have to be in porn outways the kiddie porn enthusiats rights. It had nothing to do with MORALITY, but Constitutional FREEDOM.

Individuals who are morally opposed to abortion and want it OUTLAWED are MORALISTS. Those who are morally opposed to it, don't want to pay for it, but don't want it BANNED are Constitutionalists.

The constituionalist is TOLERANT. They can remain morally sound within themselves, without having to impose their morality on others. The constituionalist understands that they can change the channel, not go places that might bother their moral sense, not buy pornography, not have abortions. The constituionalist refuses to MAKE their morality the LAW, because in doing so they violate other individuals freedom.

Morality is not a UNIVERSAL CONSTANT. Within the borders of the United States of America their is a melting pot of many cultures and many religous systems. Each with their own particular sense of morality. To make any single moral system LAW would violate the freedoms of the remaining systems practitioners.

The vodoo priest has to have equal protection to the catholic preist, or the rabbi, or the minister. The law steps in when anyones RIGHTS are violated by the activities of another.

The LAW steps in when a priest molests children. The church is responsible for holding the Preist accountable MORALLY. The government is responsible for holding the preist accountable for violating the rights of the CHILD.

The church is gods LAW. The government is Constituional LAW.

If this sense of STRICT CONSTITUIONAL LAW is not upheld, oppression occurs. Personally I think it is immoral to make morality LAW.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: morality and the law [Re: ]
    #1042632 - 11/11/02 08:07 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Hi Mr Mushrooms,

I guess my problem arises from the term/concept of morality. Back in
my religious days, I was told that morals are determined by God, and
revealed to us through his prophets. Now I don't believe that, but
there are some people who do. But among all those people who do, there still isn't always agreement as to what is morally correct and what isn't. Even within the Christian spectrum, let alone beyond!

So if laws must have a moral base, but there is no way to collectively agree on a moral base, how are the laws determined?

People will be prompted by their moral codes, but for the whole club to agree on the rules, (ahem, or its elected representatives...) there should be some empirical evidence offered, or at least a better argument than "It's morally correct."



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: morality and the law [Re: ]
    #1042647 - 11/11/02 08:27 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Teonan, I take it you're a constitutionalist...you make a good case for it.  Nice post.

I have a feeling that a lot of the debate centered around any of those issues you mentioned has to do with weighing rights of people involved, as in your kiddie porn example. 

For instance, anti-abortionists, for all their moralizations, realized long ago that they just couldn't make a case based on morals, for the very reason you gave about the diversity of morals.  So, their arguments are about individual rights--and when life begins.  In other words, an anti-abortionist might not agree to your excluding them from a pro-constitution grouping.  Though I might.  :smirk:

Same with smoking in public.  It's the statistics about second-hand smoke that has really pushed smoking bans through.  The rights of non-smokers weighed against the rights of smokers.

You're right on here: "They can remain morally sound within themselves, without having to impose their morality on others." 

This is one of the problems with referendum voting--some voters will vote according to  their  morals, without considering what that means exactly.

 


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: morality and the law [Re: ]
    #1047734 - 11/12/02 10:31 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Actually no, although I understand your point.

Take note of this, "violates the rights of another". You have just negated everything you said for violation admits the concept of good and evil. Hence, morality.

Cheers,


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: morality and the law [Re: ]
    #1048319 - 11/13/02 02:33 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Actually Yes, although I understand your point.

Violation does not admit good and evil, unless you believe in good and evil.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: morality and the law [Re: ]
    #1049248 - 11/13/02 02:19 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

"Believing" one way or another has no bearing on the issue at all. A violation is incorrect because it is wrong. Hence, right and wrong. I am not saying there is a 'absolute morality'. That is not the gist of my premise.

Most people understand that there is good and evil. And the Founding Fathers that WROTE the Constitution of the United States of America SURELY knew it.

Cheers,


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: morality and the law [Re: ]
    #1051204 - 11/14/02 01:50 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

A violation is incorrect(wrong) BECAUSE it is wrong? 

Law is MORALITY because!!!

NOW I  see your point!!! :grin:

Belief is all we got.  :wink:










 

 


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: morality and the law [Re: ]
    #1051263 - 11/14/02 02:13 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

Yep, that's what I meant. :smile:

See, this is what I meant when I paid you those compliments.  You THINK, that's pretty rare these days. :wink:

Cheers,


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineEllis Dee
Archangel
Male User Gallery Arcade Champion: Duck Hunt, Enemy Enforcer

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 13,093
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 1 month, 2 days
Re: morality and the law [Re: hongomon]
    #1051414 - 11/14/02 03:06 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

George Washington agrees with me that there is no morality without religion...

";Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds ... reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle" George Washington


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Edited by Ellis Dee (11/14/02 03:13 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineEllis Dee
Archangel
Male User Gallery Arcade Champion: Duck Hunt, Enemy Enforcer

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 13,093
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 1 month, 2 days
Re: morality and the law [Re: ]
    #1051427 - 11/14/02 03:11 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

In reply to:

It is illegal to murder because doing so violates the rights of another, it is not morality that dictates the law.

Morality is used to justify infringing on the constitutional rights of individuals who are not violating others constituional rights. DRUG PROHIBITITON. CENSORSHIP. ANTI-ABORTION LEGISLATION.



"Abortion" is murder, it's the premeditated cold blooded murder. It is a vicious evil crime. Late term and partial birth abortions are particularily ghastly. Just because no one hears the baby scream doesn't mean that he/she isn't. It's the responsibility of decent people to protect the innocent and helpless, to speak for those that don't have a voice or a choice.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: morality and the law [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1051654 - 11/14/02 05:50 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I am not gonna try and debate you on what is clearly your FAITH. I will describe to you what ROE v. WADE actually says in the easiest terms possible.

THE GOVERNMENT HAS NO RIGHT TO KNOW THAT A WOMEN IS EVEN PREGNANT UNTIL SHE TELLS THEM.

I have no problems with not using taxpayers dollars to fund abortion, because MANY people are opposed to it, and no-one should have to pay for someone else to do it.

I have no problems with limiting the ABORTION PRACTICE at the doctors end. Time limits on when it can be performed, limits on partial birth abortions, LATE TERM. I would not consider banning them, because sometimes they are neccessary to save the life of the mother(physically). But limiting them to LIFE and DEATH decisions between the doctor and the patient, wouldn't have a problem with that.

to me a responsible person who would have an abortion is someone who finds out they are pregnant, think long and hard about what that means, make the decision AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. I really don't have any IDEA why someone would wait past a month of knowing.

The government should have NO prohibitory role in consensual acts. No prohibitory role in the MEDICAL FIELDS. ONLY REGULATORY!!!

Agree or disagree. I HAVE NO MEMORY OF pre-birth, so any conclusions that I may draw are entirely based on faith. So are yours. But you want to intrude into the lives of fellow citizens in their most PRIVATE matters, via your GOVERNMENTand THEIRS, to impose your own MORALITY and FAITH upon others who do not share your MORALITY or Faith.

The BILL of RIGHTS was a revolution against that form of oppression.

You want a government that does not acknowledge you until birth(birth certificate), to violate an acknowledged citizens Constitutional rights, because you BELIEVE without PROOF, that the DEVELOPING baby inside is being murdered.

The best advice I can tell you, is to NEVER HAVE an ABORTION and Direct your legislators to NOT PAY FOr THEM with your tax dollars.

How do you feel about forcing a Raped women to give birth to an unwanted child, concieved without consent? What if she does it with a pill the very next day?
PROHIBITORY IS EXTREME. OPPRESIVE.




Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/11/99
Posts: 11,393
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: morality and the law [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1051954 - 11/14/02 10:55 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

"Partial birth abortion" is a term invented by anti-abortionists.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/11/99
Posts: 11,393
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: morality and the law [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1051959 - 11/14/02 10:58 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

"George Washington agrees with me that there is no morality without religion..."

Well, are we talking about "morals", or just plain old decency? I know lots of people who are good, honest, and kind, but they don't have or need religion.

Morals, as I see it, are falsely imposed rules for living. Victimless crimes. Homosexuality, sex outside of marriage, drug use, and all that. Nothing actually wrong with them unless you believe some two thousand year old book of myths word-for-word.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: morality and the law [Re: Phluck]
    #1052024 - 11/14/02 11:38 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

pro-choice is a term invented by pro-death groups.... :smirk:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
Re: morality and the law [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1053648 - 11/14/02 09:22 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Who's to say a child is a child untill the umbilical coard is cut? I was just thinking untill then, it is more like an organ of the mother... just decided to throw that in


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/11/99
Posts: 11,393
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: morality and the law [Re: BleaK]
    #1053819 - 11/14/02 10:13 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Man... now this thread is going to turn into another fucking abortion debate.

I want to know what's wrong with homosexuality and plain ol' sex?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineEllis Dee
Archangel
Male User Gallery Arcade Champion: Duck Hunt, Enemy Enforcer

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 13,093
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 1 month, 2 days
Re: morality and the law [Re: ]
    #1054146 - 11/15/02 12:35 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

In reply to:

The government should have NO prohibitory role in consensual acts. No prohibitory role in the MEDICAL FIELDS. ONLY REGULATORY!!!



An unborn child is not capable of giving consent for anything. They need protected the most because they are the most innocent and vulnerable.

In reply to:

How do you feel about forcing a Raped women to give birth to an unwanted child, concieved without consent? What if she does it with a pill the very next day?
PROHIBITORY IS EXTREME. OPPRESIVE.



If a child is conceived by rape the child is just as much a victim as the woman raped, maybe more. There is no reason to make the child twice a victim. Now here's a question for you... If my father robbed a bank should I be sentenced to prison for it? The unborn baby suffers a more serious punishment for their father's crimes, they get the death penalty!


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

Original Seeds Store Shop: Buy CBD, Cannabis Seeds, Compare CBD

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Moral Truths
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
Azmodeus 2,600 82 07/30/03 12:52 PM
by Azmodeus
* international law crunchytoast 1,051 18 11/15/05 09:18 AM
by crunchytoast
* House Bans Coloning of Human Cells
( 1 2 all )
PotSmokinHippie 2,549 21 08/04/01 11:36 AM
by Phred
* enforcing morality Gert 726 18 10/01/05 06:00 PM
by The14thWarrior
* Arbitary Moral Values TheOneYouKnow 1,423 18 03/03/04 06:35 PM
by FrankieJustTrypt
* Bush Signs 'Born Alive' Act Into Law
( 1 2 all )
Ellis Dee 3,556 38 08/29/02 03:25 PM
by Innvertigo
* supreme court strikes down anti-sodomy laws Anonymous 562 11 06/27/03 06:12 PM
by Anonymous
* Picking and Choosing Laws dblaney 637 7 02/22/05 12:49 AM
by Silversoul

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil
1,522 topic views. 4 members, 0 guests and 9 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Avalon Magic Plants
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.051 seconds spending 0.006 seconds on 20 queries.