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Be moral -- make a shitload of money
    #2786934 -

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB108690610119134476.html


pinky


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Edited by Phred (12/26/11 04:38 PM)

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Phred]
    #2787543 -

that was a nice fairy tale

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2787579 -

Who helps out more people, one who takes a vow of poverty and never earns a dime that he could donate to others, never provides a job for a man or woman needing to feed a family, never provides a position where someone new to the workforce can gain and develope marketable skills, never provides an example of what hard work can accomplish, never donates millions to help combat Aids in Africa, never contributes tax money to fund government welfare programs... or Bill Gates?


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Evolving]
    #2787645 -

bill gates of course:

but your arguement is a straw man because it uses samples which are not typical to their population

most poor people dont contribute nothing, and most rich people arent as well-meaning as bill gates.

as far as what pinky posted, well, that kind of propaganda might work on poor people who have never seen money, but I grew up surrounded by money, and from my experience, rich people tend to use their money to fuck others over more often than they use it to help people. At least the rich people I know.

my father has made an entire legal practice out of protecting independant land owners with mineral rights from huge conglomerations of money and influence like Haliburton and Enron. These corporations are constantly trying to screw people over. Not just their customers, but their suppliers as well. And their lower ranking employees.

Lets use starbucks as an example. You could say that starbucks has done a great service to the community by providing jobs. But really what they are doing is screwing people out of their human productive effort for peanuts. This girl I know worked at starbucks for 2 years. The store she worked at profited 1 million dollars a year. But they never paid her more than $6.50 an hour, even though she was the one waking up at 5AM every morning, baking the bread and making the coffee. Where did all that money go? Probably into the pockets of some yuppie stockholder, who is profitting heavily off of her labor, simply because they have the capital to invest in the company and she doesn't.

Of course, she could always work somewhere else, but most major companies are run the exact same way: They pay their employees as little as they can get away with, while funneling all the company's profits into the pockets of those who have contributed little to its success.

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Phred]
    #2787697 -

Cute story.

It's easier to become wealthy if you aren't encumbered by morality or ethics.

That's why a large percentage of wealthy people are evil and create most of the problems in the world.


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2787716 -

next he'll tell us the story of the man who started out with nothing, but through hard work and moral behavior became rich and did great things for humanity...  :lol: :rolleyes:

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2787739 -

DoctorJ said:
but your arguement is a straw man because it uses samples which are not typical to their population


The situations are extreme but the principles remain.

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most poor people dont contribute nothing,


What's your definition of poor? Most poor people are net consumers of tax revenue while most rich people are net producers of tax revenue.

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and most rich people arent as well-meaning as bill gates.... I grew up surrounded by money, and from my experience, rich people tend to use their money to fuck others over more often than they use it to help people. At least the rich people I know.

my father has made an entire legal practice out of protecting independant land owners with mineral rights from huge conglomerations of money and influence like Haliburton and Enron.


It's all a matter of perspective. Most rich people I know have been very generous, maybe your dad needs to hang out with a better class of people... Most millionaires in the U.S. are self made and have spent a lifetime accumulating capital, they didn't get it overnight.

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Lets use starbucks as an example. You could say that starbucks has done a great service to the community by providing jobs. But really what they are doing is screwing people out of their human productive effort for peanuts.


People voluntarily work for Starbucks. If Starbucks did no exist, those jobs WOULD NOT exist. When I worked for $6.50 and hour it was because the position or my skills were not worth more than $6.50 an hour. I looked for other work and improved my skill set.

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This girl I know worked at starbucks for 2 years. The store she worked at profited 1 million dollars a year. But they never paid her more than $6.50 an hour, even though she was the one waking up at 5AM every morning, baking the bread and making the coffee.


Gee life's tough. What the fuck does someone expect working for a coffee shop? It's an entry level type job. Should everybody be paid like brain surgeons? That would mean that brain surgery is just as valuable as making coffee.

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Where did all that money go? Probably into the pockets of some yuppie stockholder...


Most stockholders are average shmoes who have their retirement money invested, hoping to live comfortably in their golden years. They RISK their earnings and savings to fund companies, providing jobs and providing products and/or services to people who want them. They don't 'simply' have the capital to invest, they are taking risks - usually with their entire futures (you know, the time after they are old and worn out from a lifetime of work). Do you think pensions funds and various other types of retirement plans are only getting their money from Fortune 500 company CEOs?

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Of course, she could always work somewhere else, but most major companies are run the exact same way:


That's right, low skilled, entry level jobs don't pay much the world over. So what?

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They pay their employees as little as they can get away with


They pay their employees what the jobs are worth and what the employees are willing to accept. If they paid more than the jobs are worth they would be acting against the best interests of the company. If they didn't pay employess what they are willing to accept, they would have a hard time filling the positions. Businesses have a responsibility to their investors to make a profit. Any business person who goes against this is acting unethically towards the investors and FOOLISHLY as a business operator.

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... while funneling all the company's profits into the pockets of those who have contributed little to its success.


So, providing start up capital by risking your life savings is contributing little to a company's success? Tell me does investment capital grow on trees where you live? If it contributes little to the success of a business, why is it deemed so important by those who run businesses? Why are the stock markets so vital to a modern economy?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2787743 -

Baby_Hitler said:
It's easier to become wealthy if you aren't encumbered by morality or ethics.


It's also easier to be a lawyer, politician, drug dealer or parasite if you are unencumbered by morality or ethics.

Quote:
That's why a large percentage of wealthy people are evil and create most of the problems in the world.


Really? Define 'large percentage.' Define 'wealthy.' Define 'evil.' Prove that a large percentage of wealthy people are evil and that they create most of the problems in the world.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Evolving]
    #2787905 -

Quote:
The situations are extreme but the principles remain.




So, by your logic, I could take an extreme example from the population, say, a blind man, and use him as evidence why most people shouldn't be able to drive because of vision impairment.  nice.

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What's your definition of poor? Most poor people are net consumers of tax revenue while most rich people are net producers of tax revenue.




I meant working poor, not people on welfare.  I know a lot of poor people, but not many on welfare. 

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It's all a matter of perspective. Most rich people I know have been very generous, maybe your dad needs to hang out with a better class of people... 



the people my dad hangs out with are pretty much the people who run the city of Dallas, both private and public sectors.  Not that he likes hanging out with them, he just has to for business. 

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Most millionaires in the U.S. are self made and have spent a lifetime accumulating capital, they didn't get it overnight.




they spent a lifetime accumulating capital during a time when money was actually worth something.  Now they are using that capital to prevent the next generation from coming into theirs.  Business and politics today is a process of screwing the next generation, so we will be forced to do the same to our kids. 

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People voluntarily work for Starbucks. If Starbucks did no exist, those jobs WOULD NOT exist. When I worked for $6.50 and hour it was because the position or my skills were not worth more than $6.50 an hour. I looked for other work and improved my skill set.




Nobody wants a low paying job, they simply have to take them because often times no other work is available.  Why?  Because most of the money in this country is concentrated into a few people's hands, and they have all made the agreement to only pay workers as little as they can get away with. 

I've never gotten paid more than $8 an hour at any of the jobs I've worked, despite years of experience and a skill set that exceeds most of my seniors.  Employment isn't about skills or merit these days; its about who you know and what psychological games you are willing to play.  Human resources people are much more likely to hire and promote people that look good and play office politics than people who are actually qualified for these positions.  Again, its the errors in judgement that human minds tend to make. 

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Gee life's tough. What the fuck does someone expect working for a coffee shop? It's an entry level type job. Should everybody be paid like brain surgeons? 



I just think that she should have gotten paid in proportion to the work she did.  Like I said, she operated that business.  She made the coffee and scones, and she was nice to the asshole yuppie customers.  I would say she played a major role in that store making 1 million dollars in a year.  And yet she only gets a tiny fraction of that revenue.  Are you saying that people shouldn't be paid what their labor is worth? 

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They don't 'simply' have the capital to invest, they are taking risks - usually with their entire futures 



Again I will point out that most older people earned most of their money during a time period in which money was actually worth something.  Do you think that the rate of the minimum wage increase matches the rate of inflation?  :lol:

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That's right, low skilled, entry level jobs don't pay much the world over. So what?



I submit to you that most people doing "low skill" jobs are probably just as capable of working in an office at 5 or 10 times their rate of pay.  Again, employment isnt a matter of ability or merit, its about who you know and how capable you are of playing office politics (which has nothing to do with productivity)  Human psychology often takes precedence over the bottom line, though it shouldn't. 

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Businesses have a responsibility to their investors to make a profit. Any business person who goes against this is acting unethically towards the investors and FOOLISHLY as a business operator.




Sure, they have a responsibility to make a profit, but how much of a profit, and at what expense to the community? 

Let me give you an example: 

I recently accquired a half pound of...  coffee :smile:  And i sold a quarter pound to a friend.  Now, going price for this qp qould be about $1100.  But, since I was getting it super cheap, I sold it to him for $900.  He would have been willing to pay $1100, but I gave him a discount because I was getting such a good deal.  I still made money off of him by selling it for $900, just not quite as much.  I was able to get such a good deal because, as you know, when you buy a large quantity of something, the per unit price goes down.  I figure if i beat the going price by $200, I will get everyone's business and move more volume.  Which will make up for the fact that I am selling below the going rate.  It also makes me feel good to know that my actions have effected consumer prices as well: since my friend got his cheaper, he's selling to individuals at $90 a quarter ounce instead of $100. 

but most companies do not operate this way.  They use their immense capital to purchase huge amounts at a low per unit price, but instead of passing the deal on, they charge customers and employees up to 'the going rate'.  They have become monopolistic middle men who care only about themselves.  And their actions cause the entire economy to suffer. 

Quote:
So, providing start up capital by risking your life savings is contributing little to a company's success?



If that capital is in the form of federal reserve notes, which the actions of your generation have made worthless except in quantities now unobtainable by the common person.

Edited by DoctorJ (06/12/04 04:30 PM)

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Evolving]
    #2787937 -

Prove that they arent.

Prove that an evil person has a disadvantage against someone who is ethical.

By evil I mean someone who is willing to take something from somebody who needs it more than they do simply so that they will have more.

Most of the time it is rationalized evil, like this guy who thinks it's better for someone to make the securities industry 0.0005% more efficient than to help poor people improve their lives and save children who are starving from malnutrition (the social worker).


How exactly is the 0.0005% improvement in the securities industry going to help the poor?


It doesn't. It only helps people who don't need any help.


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2788394 -

Quote:
DoctorJ said:
So, by your logic, I could take an extreme example from the population, say, a blind man,


No, apples to oranges. Were talking about wealth creation not blind people driving.

Quote:
I meant working poor, not people on welfare. I know a lot of poor people, but not many on welfare.


You mean the people who get Earned Income Credit?

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they spent a lifetime accumulating capital during a time when money was actually worth something.


The Federal Reserve has been in existence since 1913. The money supply has been manipulated by the entity ever since. As the currency in circulation increases (monetary inflation), it's relative worth decreases, driving up prices. This was occurring at the hands of the Fed before most people were even born.

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Now they are using that capital to prevent the next generation from coming into theirs.


Most people never attempt any such thing. What would be the purpose of a person attempting to prevent others from gaining wealth? Wealth creation is not a zero sum game.

Quote:
Business and politics today is a process of screwing the next generation, so we will be forced to do the same to our kids.


I agree that politicians practicing deficit spending and giving out more benefits (social security, medicare) to people than they put in, is screwing the next generation. However, you have a very ignorant view of business if you think it is about screwing the next generation. Businesses rely on customers, screw your customers and you will suffer in the long run. Most businesses do no operate this way, they want to stay in business.

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... most of the money in this country is concentrated into a few people's hands, and they have all made the agreement to only pay workers as little as they can get away with.


According to the Federal Reserve the money stock for M1 + M2 + M3 for May of 2004 was $16,721,600,000,000. Are you saying that there are a few people who collectively hold more than 50% (most) of this? Please list those few people and provide proof of the agreement they have made.

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I've never gotten paid more than $8 an hour at any of the jobs I've worked, despite years of experience and a skill set that exceeds most of my seniors.


Maybe $8 an hour is all your worth. Despite what your ego tells you, employers are a much better judge of the value of your services. Why am I able to make six figure with a high school education and a lousy GPA? Why do people have no problem paying me over ten times the minimum wage when they have never met me before? It's my skill set and my experience (I only made minimum wage when I came out of high school).

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Employment isn't about skills or merit these days; its about who you know and what psychological games you are willing to play.


Sour grapes. Employers can't afford to hire people without expecting a return of their investment. If they do, they are idiots, and will soon be out of business.

Quote:
Human resources people are much more likely to hire and promote people that look good and play office politics than people who are actually qualified for these positions.


What the hell kind of skills do you have and what industries have you worked in? Yes, people are more inclined to hire those whose appearance reflects self respect, discipline and good hygiene and won't make customers or fellow employees nauseous by their odor or appearance. They also want people who can play well with others. However, you are rationalizing if you think that these are the only factors considered for employment. Welcome to the real world.

Quote:
Again, its the errors in judgement that human minds tend to make.


Sour grapes.

Quote:
I just think that she should have gotten paid in proportion to the work she did.


Well, when you run a business, you will be in a position to make that judgement.

Quote:
Are you saying that people shouldn't be paid what their labor is worth?


Having comprehension problems today? I never said that nor did I imply that. People will get paid what their services are worth, a person who would like to go out of business will pay them more. The employer and employee mutually decide upon the job, both are free to negotiate compensation or to decline to enter into an agreement of employment.

Quote:
Again I will point out that most older people earned most of their money during a time period in which money was actually worth something.


Again, I will point out that this has been happening for some time. Actually it started centuries ago and has occurred repeatedly throughout history in many civilizations and countries. Do you know what the term 'debasement of currency' means? When base metals are mixed into metals making up coins, it lowers the percentage of precious metals such as gold or silver, this 'debases' the currency lowering it's value. The result is that people begin to demand more of the currency and raise their prices to keep up. In the modern countries, the governments monetize debt or just create more currency units (print more dollars). This is not something that is undertaken by investors, but by the state.

Quote:
I submit to you that most people doing "low skill" jobs are probably just as capable of working in an office at 5 or 10 times their rate of pay.


I submit to you that if this is the case, then they could get such jobs. Your assessment of other's marketable skill sets are not born of knowledge of being an employer, but of someone who makes arm chair pronouncements about that which he is not in a position to offer an informed opinion of.

Quote:
Again, employment isnt a matter of ability or merit, its about who you know and how capable you are of playing office politics (which has nothing to do with productivity)


Again, sour grapes. How many businesses have your run? How many payrolls have you had to meet? How many employees have you had to fire because they weren't being productive or conscientious or were alienating customers? How many businesses have you consulted for?

Quote:
Human psychology often takes precedence over the bottom line, though it shouldn't.


News flash: human psychology affects the bottom line. This is why employers look for people who can work well with others, will be presentable to customers, and will be reliable at their jobs.

Quote:
Sure, they have a responsibility to make a profit, but how much of a profit, and at what expense to the community?


Any expenses incurred by the community? Do you mean the municipalities where businesses operate? Expenses such as infrastructure creation and maintenance, should be born by businesses either directly or through tax revenues generated by the businesses.

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but most companies do not operate this way.


Really? How do you know? Are you an accountant? How many company financial statements have you examined? Have you been to Walmart lately? Have you seen the falling prices?

Quote:
If that capital is in the form of federal reserve notes,


Federal reserve notes are a medium of exchange. Do you think investors keep a bunch of dollars bills lying around in pillow cases as capital?

Quote:
... which the actions of your generation have made worthless except in quantities now unobtainable by the common person.


The actions of my generation? Are you attempting to lamely put the blame on me by association of age? Again, The Federal Reserve was created in 1913. 'My generation' does not control the creation of dollars through the fed. There are certain individuals vested with this power, they are not a 'generation.' If I had my way, the Federal government would not sanction the actions of the fed, there would be no fiat currency with the words 'THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS PUBLIC AND PRIVATE.'


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Evolving]
    #2788414 -

I don't believe most people become wealthy by Wealth creation, most of them become wealthy through a wealth accumulation/depletion scheme i.e reducing other people's wealth to the benefit of their own without contributing anything to society.


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2788416 -

Baby_Hitler said:
Prove that they arent.


You are the one who made the assertion. Besides, it is illogical to attempt to prove a negative, it cannot be done.

Quote:
Prove that an evil person has a disadvantage against someone who is ethical.


Why should I, when I do not claim that this is the case?

Quote:
How exactly is the 0.0005% improvement in the securities industry going to help the poor?


You tell me what you mean by more efficient, by what measure? Now I can tell you that if you increase the disposable income of people, they will have more to spend. Spending can help towards the creation jobs. Is this not something that can be considered worthwhile?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Evolving]
    #2788441 -

Quote:
Besides, it is illogical to attempt to prove a negative, it cannot be done.


Not if you're Alpo. You need merely pronounce it to be so.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2788444 -

Baby_Hitler said:
I don't believe most people become wealthy by Wealth creation, most of them become wealthy through a wealth accumulation/depletion scheme i.e reducing other people's wealth to the benefit of their own...


What do you base your beliefs on? All of my wealth has been obtained through providing products or services to those who are willing to pay for them. Same with my parents. Same with all my siblings and all my neighbors who I have ever known. How did you gain any income (wealth) in the jobs you have had?

Quote:
... without contributing anything to society.


Society is an abstraction which signifies individuals with shared values, customs, language, etc. One cannot contribute anything to society unless he is contributing something to individuals which make up a society. When two individuals freely participate in a commercial transaction, they each do so because they want what the other has more than what they are trading. Each gains (in their subjective view) from the process, each has contributed to the (subjective) benefit of the other.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Evolving]
    #2788637 -

Evolving said:
Baby_Hitler said:
It's easier to become wealthy if you aren't encumbered by morality or ethics.


It's also easier to be a lawyer, politician, drug dealer or parasite if you are unencumbered by morality or ethics.


Minus the "parasite" one, I think that's pretty much what he said.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Evolving]
    #2788765 -

This article is a good example of the evil mind of the wealthy.

This kind of thinking lets them automatically feel morally superior to other people because of things that they have done solely for themselves. They could shit on someone, and in their minds they just did that person a favor.



I was just watching someone give a lecture on patent law on a university channel on Some university channel on Dish Network. I think it was UCTV.

She plainly stated that a patent was completely worthless to someone who didn't have a million dollars set aside to defend it.


The big monkey will stomp the little monkey and take his banana 80% of the time, and in that other 20% of the time, the next monkey usually takes it.


The wealthy spend billions of dollars a year trying to find new ways to entice people into making decisions that are against their own best interests.


Why? So they can take some of their stuff while giving them something of lesser value in return.


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2788787 -

I think that a rich person has the potential to do more good or more evil than the average person. Which one they choose is up to the individual.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: silversoul7]
    #2788828 -

Yeah, but it's not an automatic given. Being wealthy doesn't automatically grant you sainthood.


Most of them think it does. They also think it entitles them to run people's lives and tell them how to live.

That's where most politicians come from. These are the people you see at parties with politicians. like the one where Bush was joking about not finding W's of MD.









...and they just laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaafed.


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: Be moral -- make a shitload of money [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2789103 -

Baby_Hitler writes:

Being wealthy doesn't automatically grant you sainthood.

Nor does being poor.

Most of them think it does.

"Most"? Oh, please!

They also think it entitles them to run people's lives and tell them how to live.

That's a Liberal trait, not a rich guy's trait. I've known a fair whack of pretty well to do folks in my time. I have yet to meet one who wanted to run anyone's life other than their own (and sometimes the lives of their wastrel children). On the other hand, I've yet to meet a Liberal who didn't want to run everyone else's life.

pinky


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( 1 2 3 4 ... 9 10 all )		 Innvertigo 14,399 180 09/24/04 09:15 PM
by Phred

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