Home | Community | Message Board


SoulSpeciosa Kratom
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Moral Truths
    #1531220 - 05/08/03 04:56 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

This is a subject that has been troubling me for some time now. I understand why people would feel the need to uphold such moral "absolutes" like it is wrong to kill, but to enforce those morals all over the world would be ridiculous to say the least.

I have come to the conclusion that there are no moral absolutes. There is only the reality. If someone is killed, it could be for any number of reasons, including survival but the cause is not what matters, only the result. People who knew that person, or contributed to thier demise then make up justification, cause, blame, but such notions are only thought and have no bearing on any other form of life, save human.

Morality does not exist in nature. Animals are killed brutally by other animals, for food, defense, mating rituals, leadership, any number of reasons, but none of these are taken into account when it happens in nature, because they are irrelevant, it is only the result that effects the reality.

But what makes this relevent in human society? It is because of language, ego, intellegance, and society where the differance comes into play. To kill someone in life, we need to "justify" it so that others dont judge us wrongly (or rightly in some cases) and basically to excuse the act, or benefit from it. It all seems like a big game, but a serious one in which loosing can result in you being brought to "justice", and winning can declare you a hero, its all in the peoples invovled minds.

Now what was bothering me was whether someone has the right or obligation to uphold said moral absolutes when a violation of them occurs. If my family was being attacked i would kill to defend them. But what if the neighboors family was being unjustly raided? I know it is morally wrong, yet why would i sacrifice myself for whats "right"? If i traded clothes for food to him, he might directly effect my well being and entice me to defend him, but not out of moral obligation.

Basically i think its morals and conflicts between the two that make for so much conflict. Nature is anarchy, yet it is balanced, not nescessarily fair or "right", yet its existed longer than any other human system. I am still thinking on this matter, and would appreciate any insights, comments, or critisisms you can offer....


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,723
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Moral Truths [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1531246 - 05/08/03 05:04 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I have come to the conclusion that there are no moral absolutes.



So.... if someone takes a baby and bashes it's head in, that's not morally wrong?

Rapes a 3 year old ?

I'm glad the world seems to differ with your stance.



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: Moral Truths [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1531259 - 05/08/03 05:06 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I posted this here and in the spirituality/philosophy forum, as i think answers would be very different. Johnny respect asked:

"In another post you suggested that if some belief is the culturall upheld belief, then it is morally correct. My responce was that, in America, it is the belief of the majority that we should have invaded Iraq. by your reasoning, isn't that a morally correct action?

Jr "

Well i feel that whatever a person believes makes it so...for them. I dont believe in god, yet if you do 100% does he not exist in some form? I meant that what i believe to be morally correct, is not nescessarily what another thinks or believs to be 'moral'.

If the majority of america truly believes it is morally correct to oust saddam and liberate iraq, then it is!...to them. But not to me or many others...and its this conflict of what is "right' that leads to conflict and the nameing of the "agressor" and "victim" and all the other aspects of the human "game" that is morality.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: Moral Truths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1531274 - 05/08/03 05:11 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

So.... if someone takes a baby and bashes it's head in, that's not morally wrong?




To me it is, and probably many others.

Quote:

Rapes a 3 year old ?




Same as above.

Quote:

I'm glad the world seems to differ with your stance.




Because of bashing in babies heads?... i have yet to meet someone who finds it morally acceptable to kill babies. Its peoples view of what is "absolute" that clashes quite often. Im sad the world disagrees, and believes that thier moral absolutes are the correct ones, as we would all be more tolerable to each other if we didn't.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Moral Truths [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1531329 - 05/08/03 05:28 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

I have come to the conclusion that there are no moral absolutes.



So.... if someone takes a baby and bashes it's head in, that's not morally wrong?

Rapes a 3 year old ?

I'm glad the world seems to differ with your stance.



In the big scheme of things, it doesn't really matter. Nature knows no morals. We can agree on inter-subjective morals, but that doesn't mean they're objectively true. It just means that we can all agree that we consider it to be wrong, and that it benefits society to outlaw such behavior.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: Moral Truths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1531358 - 05/08/03 05:33 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

In native american tribes if a baby was born and there wasn't food or resources to care for it the mother had to execute the child for the survival of the tribe. As horrible as this is can you call it imoral?


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


Edited by Azmodeus (05/08/03 05:34 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Moral Truths [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1531373 - 05/08/03 05:36 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

An example from nature:

Most baby crocodiles are killed and eaten before they reach adulthood. Their most common predator: adult crocodiles. We're talking about infanticide and cannibalism. Is this immoral? No. It's just nature's way.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: Moral Truths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1531397 - 05/08/03 05:40 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I fail to see how man is different than animal....in regards to morality. Thoughts are irrelevent as it is the actions wich become the reality. If anything, humans are worse, because we can "justify" horrible acts in the name of morality.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Moral Truths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1531417 - 05/08/03 05:46 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

silversoul7 writes:

An example from nature:

That example is irrelevant to the human condition. Morality is a null concept when applied to beings whose means of survival is instinctual -- i.e. animals. Morality is only applicable to beings whose means of survival is through learning, rational thought, and purposefully-directed actions designed to achieve a long-range goal.

Until we encounter sentient beings from another planet, Homo sapiens sapiens are the only beings to which the term "morality" is applicable.

pinky


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Moral Truths [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1531421 - 05/08/03 05:47 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Azmodeus writes:

I fail to see how man is different than animal....in regards to morality.

See my reply to silversoul7 above.

pinky


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Moral Truths [Re: Phred]
    #1531428 - 05/08/03 05:49 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

You mention "means of survival." This is what I'm getting at. Morals and laws are the means by which we survive as a society. This doesn't mean these morals are absolute. It just means that it benefits society, and in doing so, benefits the people living within that society.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Moral Truths [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1531450 - 05/08/03 05:54 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Animals are killed brutally by other animals, for food, defense, mating rituals, leadership, any number of reasons,

mating rituals? defense? leadership? Can you give us any examples of animals who brutally kill each other over mating rituals?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Moral Truths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1531464 - 05/08/03 05:58 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Animals are killed brutally by other animals, for food, defense, mating rituals, leadership, any number of reasons,

mating rituals? defense? leadership? Can you give us any examples of animals who brutally kill each other over mating rituals?



How about every single animal capable of killing? Competition over mates is more or less universal.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Moral Truths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1531473 - 05/08/03 06:01 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

silversoul7 writes:

Morals and laws are the means by which we survive as a society. This doesn't mean these morals are absolute.

Incorrect. There are objective moral truths. Admitting that fact would of course destroy the basis of your belief in Socialism, so I can see why you choose not to acknowledge it.

It just means that it benefits society, and in doing so, benefits the people living within that society.

"Society" is nothing more than many individuals. The only thing that benefits every individual in a given society is the recognition of individual rights.

pinky


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineSombie
Moonrock eater

Registered: 12/07/02
Posts: 2,643
Loc: Stafford, Virginia
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: Moral Truths [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1531475 - 05/08/03 06:02 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

So according to you, the mass genocide of the holocoust was ok, because, that was what hitler beleived in?


--------------------
"America... just a nation of two hundred million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns and no qualms about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable." - Hunter S Thompson

Check out Agio

Follow my NFL Blog


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 16,233
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 9 days, 5 hours
Re: Moral Truths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1531476 - 05/08/03 06:02 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

You are right...Competition over mates is more or less universal..but instances of a species intentionally killing eachother for the right is extremely rare if not unheard of.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: Moral Truths [Re: Phred]
    #1531479 - 05/08/03 06:03 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Morality is a null concept when applied to beings whose means of survival is instinctual -- i.e. animals. Morality is only applicable to beings whose means of survival is through learning, rational thought, and purposefully-directed actions designed to achieve a long-range goal.
pinky




Good point pinky! But are we not also to some extent instinctual?

"Morality is only applicable to beings whose means of survival is through learning, rational thought, and purposefully-directed actions designed to achieve a long-range goal."

Can this be interpreted that morality is only applicable to society? Would not the laws of nature and instinct be more rellevant in an anarchist/nomadic lifestyle? Animals have society to some extent. What about a wolf pack? There is a certain hierarchy, but when do morals come into play? Does a new born babe have morals?...no, so they are almost an off product of society...

Like i said im still contemplating this subject, so i might not have all the answers, its just to get differnet angles on the topic.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Moral Truths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1531498 - 05/08/03 06:09 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

How about every single animal capable of killing? Competition over mates is more or less universal.

Don't be so hasty to flame me man. Try and think for just a little while first.

As Rono said, animals killing each other over mating rituals is almost unheard of.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: Moral Truths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1531499 - 05/08/03 06:09 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mating rituals? defense? leadership? Can you give us any examples of animals who brutally kill each other over mating rituals? 




Yes i can! :smile:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Moral Truths [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1531510 - 05/08/03 06:13 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Azmodeus writes:

But are we not also to some extent instinctual?

Our means of survival is not instinctual. In order to survive, we must LEARN that we can drown in water, that fire burns, that certain plants and animals are nourishing and others are deadly. Animals need learn nothing in order to survive -- the knowledge they require to survive and reproduce is ingrained. Man must learn EVERYTHING.

Can this be interpreted that morality is only applicable to society?

Oooooh.... so close. That should read "Morality is only applicable in a societal context". If you are the only human on a desert island, anything you do is moral. That is not to say that everything you do will necessarily be intelligent, but in the absence of other humans, it is impossible to act immorally.

Would not the laws of nature and instinct be more rellevant in an anarchist/nomadic lifestyle?

Nope. As soon as there are two or more humans interacting, morality becomes a valid concept.

Does a new born babe have morals?...

No. Morals are yet another thing that an infant must be taught if it is to have a chance to survive.

pinky


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | Next >  [ show all ]

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* New 911 Truth Documentary Premieres In CA usefulidiot 836 8 04/07/05 03:23 PM
by Rose
* Forbidden Truths Xlea321 379 3 04/06/03 04:50 AM
by Annapurna1
* Architects & engineers for 911 truth
( 1 2 all )
Aldous 2,260 26 06/05/07 04:30 PM
by FrenchSocialist
* A question about "subjective" morality lysergic 321 1 07/28/03 04:25 PM
by Azmodeus
* A little truth from John... Xlea321 475 2 03/20/03 10:57 PM
by Xlea321
* Energy Crisis Pits Morality vs. Responsibility
Annapurna1
398 2 11/03/03 03:19 PM
by Annapurna1
* House Bans Coloning of Human Cells
( 1 2 all )
PotSmokinHippie 2,413 21 08/04/01 11:36 AM
by Phred
* 9/11 doubters discard the truth
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
Luddite 5,338 87 09/29/06 10:46 PM
by Viveka

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Prisoner#1, Enlil
2,523 topic views. 3 members, 1 guests and 4 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
RVF Garden Supply
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.087 seconds spending 0.002 seconds on 16 queries.