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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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What exactly do religious people mean by "salvation"?
    #13725173 -

Does anybody know? The concept of salvation has been somewhat confusing to me ever since I was a kid, and it was never really explained to me very well.

Why do religious people desire salvation? What exactly do they feel they need to be saved from, and why do they speak of salvation as if everybody needs it?


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: What exactly do religious people mean by "salvation"? [Re: Poid]
    #13725185 -

salvation from the oppression of desire is how i interpreted it. kinda like nirvana, or an escape from thought maybe?


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I close my eyes and seize it
I clench my fists and beat it
I light my torch and burn it
I am the beast I worship....

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Re: What exactly do religious people mean by "salvation"? [Re: Olympus Mons]
    #13725204 -

So religious people desire to be saved from the oppression of desire? :nut:


Why do religious/spiritual people see desire as a bad thing? :lol:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: What exactly do religious people mean by "salvation"? [Re: Poid]
    #13725223 -

I think it generally refers to our state of suffering, caused by our attempts to bring God to the ego, rather than bring the ego to God (and dissolve it) - the Atman project (see Ken Wilber). We all want to be boundless and free because we know that's our true nature, but we try to make it happen forcefully within a state of separate self, not realising it is there before we even start. Salvation is to return directly to Atman, to Paradise (which is how it feels to be Yourself), 'forgiving' us of the Fall from Paradise into the ego-state.

It's all pretty ancient language for something very simple, possibly able to be summarised as "Don't worry, be happy." Or "Be still." Or "Be here Now."

Because we never actually left Paradise and no harm was done...


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My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE

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Re: What exactly do religious people mean by "salvation"? [Re: circastes]
    #13725236 -

Religious people see 'desire' as coming from the devil. The desire to have a nice car, women, drugs, anything, its all from the devil. So stop your silly desires by following some religion. :facepalm3:

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Re: What exactly do religious people mean by "salvation"? [Re: Youshouldknowabc]
    #13725729 -

I'm sure most don't realize what they really want through salvation. Some probably have deluded fantasies of flying up into the sky or being reborn in heavenly realms, but personally my idea of salvation is to simply experience unshakable inner peace even as I head inexorably towards death.


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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...

Edited by Ginseng1 (01/03/11 04:45 PM)

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Re: What exactly do religious people mean by "salvation"? [Re: Ginseng1]
    #13727516 -

from a judeo christian view it means restoring your relationship with god/jesus; being saved by the power of the lord.


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The more I see of man, the more I like dogs.  ~Mme. de Staël

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Re: What exactly do religious people mean by "salvation"? [Re: Poid]
    #13728223 -

Poid said:
So religious people desire to be saved from the oppression of desire? :nut:


Why do religious/spiritual people see desire as a bad thing? :lol:


the same reason buddhists do?


--------------------
I close my eyes and seize it
I clench my fists and beat it
I light my torch and burn it
I am the beast I worship....

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: What exactly do religious people mean by "salvation"? [Re: Poid]
    #13728324 -

Salvation from suffering


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Re: What exactly do religious people mean by "salvation"? [Re: Poid]
    #13728335 -

Poid said:
So religious people desire to be saved from the oppression of desire? :nut:


Why do religious/spiritual people see desire as a bad thing? :lol:


Humans are born relatively happy into this world but there can come a time when one sees that holding on to an individual identity, which is desire, is a bad thing. This isn't the case for everyone, as it's a kind of a "stage", a launching pad into "spirituality". There's also a degree to which people suffer, so that some don't see complete salvation as a necessity and will instead settle for temporary satisfactions to keep their suffering at bay.

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Re: What exactly do religious people mean by "salvation"? [Re: Tony]
    #13728358 -

Tony said:
Poid said:
So religious people desire to be saved from the oppression of desire? :nut:


Why do religious/spiritual people see desire as a bad thing? :lol:


Humans are born relatively happy into this world but there can come a time when one sees that holding on to an individual identity, which is desire, is a bad thing. This isn't the case for everyone, as it's a kind of a "stage", a launching pad into "spirituality". There's also a degree to which people suffer, so that some don't see complete salvation as a necessity and will instead settle for temporary satisfactions to keep their suffering at bay.


would you say that at the root of it, desire itself is the root of most if not all of our suffering? even if it's ones desire causing suffering.


--------------------
I close my eyes and seize it
I clench my fists and beat it
I light my torch and burn it
I am the beast I worship....

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: What exactly do religious people mean by "salvation"? [Re: Olympus Mons]
    #13728373 -

I would say everyone forms their own view of what is causing their suffering. There's no objective qualification. But after a certain point there's no more possibility for the "I am a victim of x" attitude and it all turns inwards.

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Re: What exactly do religious people mean by "salvation"? [Re: Tony]
    #13728411 -

im talking more about the act of wanting or desiring itself, not so much the effects of it on others.i understand what youre saying about their not being objective qualification. From what i understand everyone wants something, and in my experience when you want, you will manipulate to get whether it be consciously or subconsciously. and in through that door of will, you invite suffering. The idea being that if you can lose the desire there will be no good or bad.


--------------------
I close my eyes and seize it
I clench my fists and beat it
I light my torch and burn it
I am the beast I worship....

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: What exactly do religious people mean by "salvation"? [Re: Olympus Mons]
    #13728434 -

The act of desiring something, anything, implies its separation from you, the feeling of being a separate thing & needing some other thing to unite with & feel the end of separation is a state of suffering, a state of being without, a state of incompleteness. So desire is akin to suffering as desire says 'i am not yet whole'

Although when one rediscovers ones inherent wholeness desires can still be there, its like surface wave play on the ocean, just now one knows they are the ocean, not just a wave.

:rose:


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Re: What exactly do religious people mean by "salvation"? [Re: Chronic7]
    #13728448 -

it's a constant battle of course, as everything is, it's the only way it makes sense.


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I close my eyes and seize it
I clench my fists and beat it
I light my torch and burn it
I am the beast I worship....

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: What exactly do religious people mean by "salvation"? [Re: Olympus Mons]
    #13728510 -

Its a different kind of battle though i find, one that is won by keeping quiet, not going with the minds desire...


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Re: What exactly do religious people mean by "salvation"? [Re: Poid]
    #13729496 -

Poid said:
Does anybody know? The concept of salvation has been somewhat confusing to me ever since I was a kid, and it was never really explained to me very well.

Why do religious people desire salvation? What exactly do they feel they need to be saved from, and why do they speak of salvation as if everybody needs it?


And why dont you ask some religious people instead? The way I see it, most of us here are not into any formal religion. I mean how would I, or someone here, on forum, know about what some religious people out there think about salvation.

My opinion is that salvation is just another story, idea, symbol or whatever. Something that should be striven for, while its unattainable. Its just like, trying to enjoy your life, while your life is passing you by. The thing is we are all already saved, we just dont want to realize it, and are afraid of this knowledge. I dont want to bring this down to earth, so someone could ask me, and what about those who are sick and hungry and are suffering, cuz salvation is an idea hanging in the clouds, and I am just making an appropriate approach.


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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. - Nietzsche

I've never faked a sarcasm in my life. True story.

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Re: What exactly do religious people mean by "salvation"? [Re: Chronic7]
    #13730288 -

The Chronic said:
Salvation from suffering

This is what I think they mean--why, then, do Christians, for example, believe that worshipping Jesus is the only way to end suffering? I don't believe that people actually put stock into that idea, it totally baffles my mind how superstitious people can be. :picard:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: What exactly do religious people mean by "salvation"? [Re: Poid]
    #13734839 -

Poid said:
So religious people desire to be saved from the oppression of desire? :nut:


Why do religious/spiritual people see desire as a bad thing? :lol:


Hello.

Many religious/spiritual people see desire as an obstacle, the word bad is all to often misunderstood.

When a person achieves their desire, how long are they happy for before they begin to desire something new?  Can you name a person who has achieved their desire, and not wanted for anything ever again after this?

The only people i know who have achieved a self perpetuating happiness that has not stagnated into frustration or desires-a-new, are people who have attained a spiritual salvation, deliverance or enlightenment.

Some may not mind the up and down of temporal happiness of wanting, attaining, stagnating and wanting a new, why break the habit of a lifetime?  But some feel that it is circular and that there is something more to life.  Verily, there are plenty of accounts of people throughout the ages who have broken the circle (of want, attain, stagnate, want again, attain, stagnate, want...ad infinitum) and experienced a different sort of contentment often referred to as bliss. 

I always find it a funny paradox that our desire for Salvation/Deliverance/Enlightenment can be the very obstacle preventing us from attaining it.

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Re: What exactly do religious people mean by "salvation"? [Re: Poid]
    #13734875 -

Poid said:
The Chronic said:
Salvation from suffering

This is what I think they mean--why, then, do Christians, for example, believe that worshipping Jesus is the only way to end suffering? I don't believe that people actually put stock into that idea, it totally baffles my mind how superstitious people can be. :picard:



Not sure bro, maybe through extreme faith/belief they had a lil glimpse of intensely beautiful Bliss, so then they attribute the Bliss to the belief & think its the only way to attain it


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Spirituality & Mysticism
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