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OfflineAndytweed
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Limit as universe approaches 0
    #1241852 - 01/23/03 06:46 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

This year I'm taking Calculus AB and have gone over the concept of limits. If you are unfamiliar with limits, it is the idea that in between any two numbers there are an infinite amount of other numbers. ex. between 0 and 1 you could find .01, .001, .0001, and keep going without bound.
This got me thinking. Doesn't the same thing apply to our universe? I'm sure you've all thought about if there is an end to the universe. How could there be? :confused: If there is a wall at some point there has to be something beyond that on into infinity.
The same thing applies in the other direction. We all think of atoms as the smallest parts of anything, but if you think about it you can break those down even further into infinity.
Well that's just some stuff I've been pondering.


--------------------
All Information posted by me is for entertainment purposes only and should not be attempted in real life!!!


Edited by Andytweed (01/23/03 08:13 PM)


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OfflineTeKn0
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Re: Limit as universe approaches 0 [Re: Andytweed]
    #1241970 - 01/23/03 07:19 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Einstein was bent on the idea that the Universe was Static, he even modified his theory to support this. Later when it was proved to be wrong, he claimed it was his biggest mistake.
The funny thing is, he may have been way ahead of his time, as many observations and experiments lean toward the idea that we are in an expanding Universe within a Static Infinity.
But then again, this could probably never be proven or taken beyond the observations and experiments conducted within the boundaries of our Universe.
Interesting to think about though, and it would make sense.

Oh, and the furthest point at which you can break something down, without the prescence of a black hole is called a Planck Length, all laws of physics will not hold beyond that point.


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Edited by TeKn0 (01/23/03 06:14 PM)


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Offlinediggitydankman
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Re: Limit as universe approaches 0 [Re: Andytweed]
    #1241985 - 01/23/03 07:26 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Well even though physics and math are similar, limits really don't hold any grasp on our universe. The idea that our universe may collapse on itself is rediculous. First our universe is consistently loosing matter to black holes and therefore cannot ever have the mass that it would take to reform the concentration of matter prior to the big bang. Atoms are certainly not the smallest part of matter. First off atoms are made of protons, electrons, neutrons and these consist of quarks, leptons, gluons, and WZ bosons.


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"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
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I should play GOD."

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OfflineTeKn0
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Re: Limit as universe approaches 0 [Re: diggitydankman]
    #1242019 - 01/23/03 07:37 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

The Universe may very well collapse on itself.
You see, there is not enough Visible matter in the Universe to keep all the Galaxies from falling into each other, so therefore there must be enough Black Matter (Matter in which we cannot view or see, but has a gravitational affect), to balance out the pull.
Also Black holes eventually reach a point where there density reaches a critical point and they in fact may create even more matter than they consumed, Black Holes also have an incredible gravitational pull, enough to bend light 180?.
So the reality is, there may not be enough gravity or matter within the Universe at this point, to bring the Universe into a collapsing stage, but it is very possible.


--------------------
Listen, or your tongue will keep you deaf. :wink:
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Edited by TeKn0 (01/23/03 07:40 AM)


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Offlinediggitydankman
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Re: Limit as universe approaches 0 [Re: TeKn0]
    #1242042 - 01/23/03 07:43 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Ever thought that when a black hole reaches that criticla point where it has consumed more than enough matter that a new universe is spawned?


--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."

Maynard James Keenan, Tool


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OfflineTeKn0
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Re: Limit as universe approaches 0 [Re: diggitydankman]
    #1242071 - 01/23/03 07:53 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Yea, that's the thing, its like....
From the Death of a Star, Comes the life of a Galaxy.
Star runs out of nuclear fuel to burn on, it's density becomes so great that light can no longer escape it's surface, and it begins to shrink as it sucks all matter surrounding it into it's void, like a big trash compactor.
Then it reaches a point of Critical Density, I would most defiantly argue that it would create a singularity at that point.


--------------------
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Offlinegnrm23
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big picture [Re: Andytweed]
    #1242213 - 01/23/03 08:48 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)



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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Limit as universe approaches 0 [Re: Andytweed]
    #1242330 - 01/23/03 09:45 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Is there an end to the surface of a bubble?  :wink:

As for smallest parts, string theory (which I happen to like) states that the smallest (and fundamental) object in the universe is the "string" - a small one dimensional closed loop that vibrates. The average size of a string is about the Plank Length, I think. Very small 


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
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You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineTeKn0
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Re: big picture [Re: gnrm23]
    #1242507 - 01/23/03 10:44 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

That's wicked,
just goes to show how insignificant we really are.


--------------------
Listen, or your tongue will keep you deaf. :wink:
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OfflineMeph
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Re: Limit as universe approaches 0 [Re: trendal]
    #1242665 - 01/23/03 12:20 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


As for smallest parts, string theory (which I happen to like) states that the smallest (and fundamental) object in the universe is the "string" - a small one dimensional closed loop that vibrates. The average size of a string is about the Plank Length, I think. Very small




A one dimentional object?

Please, trendal, explain!


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



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OfflineTeKn0
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Re: Limit as universe approaches 0 [Re: Meph]
    #1242757 - 01/23/03 12:50 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

A one dimensional object?

Please, trendal, explain! 



Not Trendal, but I think I can help you out.
In string theory, basic objects are not particles that occupy a single point in space, but one-dimensional strings.
These strings either have ends or join up with themselves in loops.
Just like strings used for instruments, strings in string theory support certain vibrational patterns, or frequencies, whose wavelengths fit perfectly between the two ends.
As with Musical Instruments, different oscillations give rise to different masses and force charges, which are then interpreted as fundamental particles.
In other words the shorter the wavelength of the oscillation on the string, the greater the mass of the particle.

Hope that helps  :smirk: 


--------------------
Listen, or your tongue will keep you deaf. :wink:
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OfflineAndytweed
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Re: Limit as universe approaches 0 [Re: TeKn0]
    #1243257 - 01/23/03 03:38 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

But if you think about it, can't you even break those loops up into smaller pieces?


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OfflineTeKn0
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Re: Limit as universe approaches 0 [Re: Andytweed]
    #1243355 - 01/23/03 04:13 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

No, To do that you would have to have a Black Hole present, as to go any smaller would defy the laws of physics, and would require particles of such high energy that they could only be inside a Black Hole.
A Black Hole would be the only thing that could possibly have particles with enough energy to probe beyond Planks Length.
These strings in String Theory are about a Plank Length or so in size, stretch throughout space-time, and there mere oscillations give rise to what we interpret as particles, the greater the oscillation the greater the mass of interpreted particle, in other words the shorter the distance between the wave crests the greater the mass of the particle.

Also, it would take an Particle Accelerator with a diameter greater than our solar system to probe distances as small as a Planck Length.


--------------------
Listen, or your tongue will keep you deaf. :wink:
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Edited by TeKn0 (01/23/03 04:25 PM)


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OfflineAndytweed
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Re: Limit as universe approaches 0 [Re: TeKn0]
    #1243378 - 01/23/03 04:20 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I don't think you understand what I'm saying.
You can break everything down into these strings, just as you can break everything into atoms, just as you can break a galaxy into stars.
I'm saying that there will always be a smaller piece on into infinity.
I don't understand how a black hole applies to this idea at all.


--------------------
All Information posted by me is for entertainment purposes only and should not be attempted in real life!!!


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OfflineTeKn0
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Re: Limit as universe approaches 0 [Re: Andytweed]
    #1243444 - 01/23/03 04:36 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Okay,
You break down Atoms into electrons orbiting a nucleus made up of protons and neutrons, which are then made up of Quarks, etc...... Then we come to a Planck Length, and to probe any deeper then that would require particles with such high energy, they could only be found within a Black Hole.
Hope that helps.


--------------------
Listen, or your tongue will keep you deaf. :wink:
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OfflineAndytweed
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Re: Limit as universe approaches 0 [Re: TeKn0]
    #1243471 - 01/23/03 04:43 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I don't mean physically breaking down strings.
I'm saying conceptually there will always be a smaller building block to something. It's the same idea as an infinite universe, no matter how far away you get things just get bigger and bigger. Now I'm just going the other direction, there will always be a smaller and smaller perspective, just as there will always be a smaller number between two numbers.


--------------------
All Information posted by me is for entertainment purposes only and should not be attempted in real life!!!


Edited by Andytweed (01/23/03 04:50 PM)


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OfflineTeKn0
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Re: Limit as universe approaches 0 [Re: Andytweed]
    #1243750 - 01/23/03 06:11 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Okay, what I am saying is kind of the same as in my first post.
I will compare particles to the Universe.
There is an beginning to the Universe, But then there is a infinity beyond that,
thats like the Planck length, it's all we can comprehend, it's like the wall that separates the universe from the infinity beyond, once you cross that line your in a whole new existence nothing we know now would stand, physics would be broken down into garbage. You can stretch out into space an finite distance and after that your going to reach the beginning of the Universe, then the radiation background, after that it's an infinity beyond.
Same goes for the opposite direction your can stretch out a finite distance on a microscopic level, but your going to reach a point where it ends, and beyond that it's just another whole new game, particles smaller than a Plank Length would probably travel through time, and it would be impossible to measure these in any way.

But yes, everything is composed of something but there is only relevance in a certain area within the infinite stretch of our existance, and to try and comprehend anything beyond that would be a waste of time.


--------------------
Listen, or your tongue will keep you deaf. :wink:
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Edited by TeKn0 (01/23/03 06:22 PM)


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OfflineAndytweed
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Re: Limit as universe approaches 0 [Re: TeKn0]
    #1243784 - 01/23/03 06:24 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Who said the universe is finite?
I must have missed that meeting.


--------------------
All Information posted by me is for entertainment purposes only and should not be attempted in real life!!!


Edited by Andytweed (01/23/03 06:25 PM)


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Offlineshaggy101
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Re: Limit as universe approaches 0 [Re: TeKn0]
    #1243804 - 01/23/03 06:32 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

"the big bang theory has been incredibly successful, but its really only a theory of what happened after the big bang" Michael Turner-U of Chicago
this comes from an article is Astronomy magazine called "When branes collide" talking about other dimensions. I think i'll re-read it and try to explain it.


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OfflineTeKn0
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Re: Limit as universe approaches 0 [Re: Andytweed]
    #1243811 - 01/23/03 06:35 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

The Universe has an beginning and an end therefore it is not infinite.
Infinity is truly incomprehensible, there is or may be an infinity beyond the radiation background of our Universe.
But the Universe did start with a singularity or at least in my opinion, and if the Universe is expanding then there must be an end to it or there would be nothing to expand upon.


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