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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12163428 -

zappaisgod said:
Why not?  Just declare it's value to be something else.  Regulating the coin and all, doncha know.



No doesn't work.

Although it is possible for a government to coin money and limit it's production.  Austria did that to prevent price inflation when their economy was swamped with foreign precious metal.  That was done at the advice of Carl Menger and was considered to be the beginning of Austrian economics.

The Austrian coin purchasing power floated above the buying power of the rest of the metal in circulation.


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Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (03/08/10 11:02 AM)

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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: Mr.Al]
    #12163458 -

What do you mean it doesn't work.  They did it before.


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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12163494 -

Are you referring to price fixing?

What exactly are you talking about?


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: Mr.Al]
    #12163591 -

The revaluation of gold in 1934.


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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12169029 -

zappaisgod said:
The revaluation of gold in 1934.



That didn't work very well...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Gold_Pool

Breton Woods broke down completely in 1971 when Nixon closed the gold window, effectively ending convertibility of dollars to gold.

After 1971, government spending went totally out of control....


http://www.zealllc.com/2003/infdef2.htm


The CPI itself is graphed on the left axis in blue, while the right axis shows the annual rate of change in this CPI rendered in red.  When general price levels are rising, indicated by a positive CPI YoY change, the red line is above the thick gray zero-CPI-growth line.  Conversely falling general price levels are noted when the CPI YoY change falls negative.





With Nixon’s final deathblow to sound American money, the Age of Fiat Paper was born.  Now the Fed could print unlimited amounts of inherently worthless fiat paper dollars all the time without suffering any immediate consequences.  Needless to say, since 1971 inflation and the CPI have soared and the savings of hardworking Americans have been stealthily stolen to fund the overpowering Welfare State.  In the graph above note the huge slope steepening of the CPI in 1971 when the international dollar gold standard was reneged.


Take heed that it was unconstitutional war (read: warfare not declared by Congress) that strained the tenuous tie the dollar still had to gold...

This is something that neo-conservatives (would that be you zap?) would do well to consider, the economic consequences of undeclared (by Congress, because then they can abdicate responsibility) war.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (03/09/10 09:10 AM)

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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: Mr.Al]
    #12169242 -

Oh yes, that would be me.

Whether the revaluation of gold in 1934 was effective or not is completely irrelevant to the fact that they can do it, did do it and will do it again if they want to.  All perfectly constitutional.  As were the wars that you think aren't.  Armies of lawyers and judges have repudiated your ignorant legal stance.


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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12169265 -

zappaisgod said:
Oh yes, that would be me.

Whether the revaluation of gold in 1934 was effective or not is completely irrelevant to the fact that they can do it, did do it and will do it again if they want to.  All perfectly constitutional.  As were the wars that you think aren't.  Armies of lawyers and judges have repudiated your ignorant legal stance.




No respect whatsoever for the founders, eh?

Lawyers and judges can be wrong.



If they try something like a Breton Woods III it will also fail like the past two did.

Can you give me a good definition of insanity?

What makes you think the dollar is immune to math?

You don't even care if the phony economics works or not?

You aren't debating as to whether the current monetary policy is sustainable?!?

You are nucking futs.


All that being said, what does zap think about Schiff?

http://www.youtube.com/user/schiffreport?blend=1&ob=4

He said national debt is already over 100% of G.D.P.!?!

Methinks this does not bode well.

Edited by Mr.Al (03/09/10 10:36 AM)

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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: Mr.Al]
    #12169325 -

Mr.Al said:
zappaisgod said:
Oh yes, that would be me.

Whether the revaluation of gold in 1934 was effective or not is completely irrelevant to the fact that they can do it, did do it and will do it again if they want to.  All perfectly constitutional.  As were the wars that you think aren't.  Armies of lawyers and judges have repudiated your ignorant legal stance.




No respect whatsoever for the founders, eh?

Lawyers and judges can be wrong.


Almost all of them?  According to who?  You?:rofl2:
Quote:
If they try something like a Breton Woods III it will also fail like the past two did.

Can you give me a good definition of insanity?

What makes you think the dollar is immune to math?

You don't even care if the phony economics works or not?

You aren't debating as to whether the current monetary policy is sustainable?!?


The monetary system is.  The spending and borrowing policy is not.
Quote:
You are nucking futs.


You are at and fugly.
Quote:
All that being said, what does zap think about Schiff?

http://www.youtube.com/user/schiffreport?blend=1&ob=4

He said national debt is already over 100% of G.D.P.!?!

Methinks this does not bode well.



National debt is not deficit.  And I think national debt of 100% GDP is too high.  The answer is to stop spending and borrowing.  Eliminating fiat currency or the fed will have no effect on that.  None at all.


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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12169345 -

Jefferson certainly would be in agreement with my position on the fed.



Please explain how the federal government could amass such massive unsustainable debt without the aid of the central bank.

Schiff was referring to the money owed because of Fannie & Freddie in terms of an increase in the national debt to (ballpark) 15 trillion.


Eliminating the federal reserve notes certainly would "end" the debt, it's called hyperinflation...  The dollar is presently the world reserve fiat.  That is the main reason we haven't seen a run on the dollar (yet).  The elected representatives and the American people don't know about the fed's dealings with other central banks and nations.  We could be bailing out other nations right now.  It's perfectly legal (albeit immoral.).

China, Japan, and other debt holders might get a little pissed... 


How much does the dollar need to drop until you come to your senses?

Neoconservatives don't believe in fiscal conservatism.  How can you occupy 130+countries with 700 bases and be fiscally conservative?  How is endless warfare a recipe for reining in deficit spending?


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (03/09/10 11:00 AM)

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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: Mr.Al]
    #12169371 -

Mr.Al said:
Jefferson certainly would be in agreement with my position on the fed.


Jefferson wasn't the only founding father.  How many amendments have been written since he died?
Quote:
Please explain how the federal government could amass such massive unsustainable debt without the aid of the central bank.


By selling government bonds.  Duh.
Quote:
 

Schiff was referring to the money owed because of Fannie & Freddie in terms of an increase in the national debt to (ballpark) 15 trillion.


I believe Fannie and Freddie are holding about $5T in notes.  Not all of them are going to go bad.  But I certainly agree that Fannie and Freddie should be sold off and eliminated entirely.
Quote:
Eliminating the federal reserve notes certainly would "end" the debt, it's called hyperinflation...

China, Japan, and other debt holders might get a little pissed...


Yes, they might. 
Quote:
 


How much does the dollar need to drop until you come to your senses?


Against what?
I've heard these claims of an impending financial apocolypse for 40 years.  It never comes.


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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12169469 -

zappaisgod said:
By selling government bonds.  Duh.


Mr. Al's ignorance has never ceased to amaze me, even when he's on ignore (thanks for quoting that, by the way)

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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: Mr.Al]
    #12170365 -

Quote:
As far as computers are concerned I meant that each model produced is technologically outdated in six months because new models produced are far superior so quickly... That is primarily why the prices fall so fast, it is certainly not a monetary phenomenon. 


No, of course the fall in the price of computers and cellphones and air conditioners and televisions is not a monetary phenomenon - nice strawman. My point was to refute your contention that the price of stuff keeps increasing. It does for some stuff, it doesn't for other stuff.

And no, the price of new technology doesn't drop because stuff already sold is inferior, it drops because it takes less and less effort (and resources) to produce the new stuff than the older stuff required. Again, your monomania over fiat currency has infected all the rest of your though processes re things economic.

Quote:
It is odd that you have so little respect for the gold bugs who predicted the causes and consequences of the housing bubble we recently experienced.


They didn't predict events because they are gold bugs, duh, but because they saw the same things other non-gold bug economists also saw. Including, by the way, President George W. Bush. He warned in one of his very first speeches as president about the need to reign in Fanny and Freddy.

Quote:
You are flat out wrong when it comes to the money supply...


No, I am not. I am 100% correct when I say that fiat currency qua fiat currency does not necessarily lead to runaway inflation. If the supply of currency increases more rapidly than the supply of goods and services, there is - of course - inflation. But if the supply of money increases less rapidly than the supply of goods and services, there is instead deflation. Neither condition is ideal, but inflation is by far the easiest situation to live with and to remedy. Inflation also incentivizes investment, deflation decentivizes it. 

Now, it is true that historically, politicians tend to increase the money supply rather than decrease it, so inflation is much more common than deflation. But it doesn't have to be that way. The problem with using specie as currency (or using specie-backed currency - same same) is that in a modern technological society, the supply of goods and services increases at a far greater rate than the supply of the specie in question. This leads - inevitably - to a deflationary spiral with no available correction mechanism.

And zap is 100% right in his explanation of the housing bubble - it had nothing whatsoever to do with the devaluation over time of the US dollar. Zero. Zip. Nada. It was entirely a product of poorly-thought out government policies towards lending institutions.




Phred


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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: Phred]
    #12170379 -

Phred said:
No, I am not. I am 100% correct when I say that fiat currency quafiat currency does not necessarily lead to runaway inflation.


And zap is 100% right in his explanation of the housing bubble - it had nothing whatsoever to do with the devaluation over time of the US dollar. Zero. Zip. Nada.


QFT

aaaaaand

QFT

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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: Phred]
    #12176032 -

The "gold bugs" you referred to predicted the cause (artificially low interest rates thanks to the 'fed) of the housing boom because they have studied Austrian Business Cycle Theory.  Sure, the money flowed towards housing because the political climate favored a boom in that particular industry.  Where did the easy money come from?  Do you have an answer to that?






Technological improvements in computation drive down the price of computers.  That is why I said a computer is obsolete after six months.  It is not so much that making computers has become cheaper...

Prices for computers and other technology orientated goods would drop much faster if it were not for inflation of the money supply.

You originally mentioned that particular industry, which sees prices fall periodically and appears to be doing just fine...  Why do you think that a general fall in prices is a bad thing?  What is your fear of falling prices based on?


Saying that fiat currency does not necessarily lead to hyperinflation is a weak argument that does not say much.  Drinking a few beers does not necessarily mean driving into a tree, where did you say the keys are?  Given present national debt levels and unsustainable social welfare programs I do not see how hyperinflation could not occur unless: federal government spending is cut to a fraction of it's present size or a huge increase in production (due to a tech. paradigm shift) drives down prices.  How do you see the U.S. economy recovering from it's current situation?



The basis of investment is savings, not credit. 

I think your problem is that you are not intelligently discriminating the difference between investment  based on real savings versus credit.

Do you know the difference between the two in terms of how they function in the economy?

Ludwig Von Mises wrote an entire book on it.  I own his "Theory on money and credit".  If you haven't familiarized yourself with it you really would not understand how important it is to understand how capital acquired through production works entirely different from fiduciary media.





Yes, that is it exactly.  You and zap might see where I am coming from if you understand the difference between real money and fiduciary media.




Edited by Mr.Al (03/10/10 09:30 AM)

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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12176088 -

The problem with government issued debt instruments is that the government has no intention of just paying off their debt and leaving it at that...

Instead government issues more debt instruments in order to roll over the previously issued debt instruments and then some...

This does not appear to lead toward fiscal responsibility zap.  It makes no sense to complain about out of control government spending when there is no actionable means of restraining government spending.

If money was commodity based government would not be able to engage in this reckless behavior because it would not be able to monetize debt in order to pay it's debt obligations.

Monetizing debt has begun in this country. 

Monetizing debt is what set off hyperinflation in the Weimar Republic (Remember history class zap, that bit about a wheelbarrow full of paper used to buy a loaf of bread?)


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (03/10/10 09:27 AM)

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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: Mr.Al]
    #12176146 -

Most of your latest reply is just more of your repetitive drone re fiat currency. Clearly you are impervious to rational argument on this point, so I leave you to your delusions on that subject. However, I must address - once again - your bizarre beliefs on what drives the drop in prices of some goods:

Quote:
Technological improvements in computation drive down the price of computers.

 

No, it is not the fact that designers come up with more capable components that drives down the costs. Just because a new device is faster or can handle more functions simultaneously (or both)  it is not necessarily cheaper to produce. It is not the technological advances in the design of electronics components that lowers costs, it is the advances in the production of those components that does. As well, of course, as the recovering of development costs over time and the effect of competition on the open market. 

Quote:
That is why I said a computer is obsolete after six months.  It is not so much that making computers has become cheaper...


But that's just it! The making of computers has become cheaper. Orders of magnitude cheaper in the case of some key components.





Phred


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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: Phred]
    #12176207 -

Again, if the price of a particular computer drops dramatically in half a year and yet the computer industry still does just fine, why are you concerned about a general fall in prices throughout the economy?

This happened during the Industrial Revolution.  Real wages skyrocketed and the standard of living entered the modern era.  There was a general decline in prices across the board.  The medium of exchange was increasing in purchasing power...

You didn't even bother to look into fiduciary media...


What creates the destructive business cycle that causes systemic misallocation of resources is cheap money made available through artificially low interest rates - fiduciary media. 

In an actual free market economy we see low interest rates when capital has accumulated through savings acquired by real production.  Big supply of available capital for lending equals lower interest rates. 

When there is far less capital available interest rates rise because available capital for investment is more scarce.


The U.S. economy does not function like this presently (although it did during the Industrial Revolution!).


Today the central bank keeps interest rates artificially low in the failed attempt at sustaining a "perpetual boom", that is Keynesian economics precisely!

Indeed, the Keynesian response (that was straight from Keynes) to an economic downturn is for the central bank to lower interest rates!

What did we see prior to the Housing bubble?

Where are interest rates now?

They certainly are not what they would be in a free market.  People's savings have evaporated.  Real capital is scarce.  Interest rates would be much higher in an actual free market.  Interest rates would have been higher before the housing boom occurred in a free market because capital was still more scarce than what interest rates told you.  The easy money would not have been available, housing boom could not have occurred.



That is what free market economists mean when they say that a free market regulates itself.

Comprende?



Perhaps you are still confused and give my words no credence because of a misunderstanding of the Great Depression?

That would be a fruitful discussion (the Great Depression).

Edited by Mr.Al (03/10/10 10:12 AM)

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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: Mr.Al]
    #12209445 -

all i know is that out of my check for the last 2 weeks the government took $$1800!!!!!

fuck that noise. im not rich i just work like a fucking maniac (80+ hr weeks, a lot of offshore travel)


i never believed life was fair

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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: vikingpower]
    #12223091 -

vikingpower said:
all i know is that out of my check for the last 2 weeks the government took $$1800!!!!!

fuck that noise. im not rich i just work like a fucking maniac (80+ hr weeks, a lot of offshore travel)


i never believed life was fair



The government has an amazing sense of entitlement in regards to money that does not belong to them.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: Mr.Al]
    #12223635 -

Mr.Al said:
The government has an amazing sense of entitlement in regards to money that does not belong to them.


That.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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