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Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke.
    #12099744 -

I pay less taxes now, and so does everyone else in tax brackets above me, up to a point.

I saw a chart outlining the tax plans of both candidates (before the election ended of course)

My father is by no means "rich" but we are upper middle class. Not sure how we compare to others in this area, I would generally guess around the middle.

He is a yellow dog democrat. I am by no means a democrat at all, I just use my brain.

So we look at this chart. He would have made more money under McSame. How much more? So little that its really trivial, especially considering all of his kids and my mothers other two kids all make SUBSTANTIALLY more.

Not to say this is the most awesome tax plan, but trickle down economics has never, and will never work. I hear so many people bitching about paying more taxes. Where are these phantom extra taxes?

Finally at the very least (whether anything else is working or whatever) we have a president who at least finally has the audacity to try what actually works, fuck the ultra rich who don't pay there fair share.

Yeah, some of them have earned their richness. Fair enough. However we aren't playing the "they can afford it" game here, we are talking about the simple fact that a government that over taxes people it shouldn't is shooting themselves in the foot in so many ways, to include bringing down (eventually) profits for these corporations.

Why? Because us average Joe's don't have as much money to stimulate the economy, and it takes no rocket scientist to realize that you can't buy with what you don't have.

I figured this out when I was very young, trickle down economics is utter nonsense. How the upper 1% keeping more of their money is supposed to work, I will never know. They are not creating more jobs (clearly this is nonsense, they move your job south of the border or overseas, they don't give a crap about anything more than profits) we see this time and time again, massive layoffs, mismanagement, exploited workers.

It doesn't work. Trusting the ultra rich 1% to try to make it work is simply asking a fox to guard a henhouse.

Income tax, for you and I, is illegal anyway. Higher consumption taxes would of course need to be put in place, but to put it bluntly, the corporations are the only ones who legally should be paying income tax as the constitution is written, and they do everything in their power to NOT pay it, so you and I pick up the bill.


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  we could all use a little more sunshine.

:shrug: yeah, she's funny and somewhat interesting.  not a beauty queen, but not bad lookin.  i'd feel quite honored to fuck janine garofalo. -tiny_rabid_birds

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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: Cannabischarlie]
    #12100173 -

that's great and all for you, but not all people are in such a relaxed financial situation. keep on telling yourself getting assfucked by increased taxes is okay because you still have some spare change to give, but if you ever do come upon hard times, don't expect any help by the government. the middle class doesn't get any handouts.

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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: JT]
    #12100783 -

for real!

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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: Cannabischarlie]
    #12105385 -

Cannabischarlie said:
Income tax, for you and I, is illegal anyway.



can you show us some evidence of this


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #12111856 -

Prisoner#1 said:
Cannabischarlie said:
Income tax, for you and I, is illegal anyway.



can you show us some evidence of this



 

The important thing to consider is that the year the 18th Amendment (which I don't believe was ratified...) the federal reserve hijacked the money supply.

The most dangerous threat to a republic is always within, not without.


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Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: Mr.Al]
    #12112239 -

46 of 48 states ratified the 18th amendment, it was prohibition

42 states ratified the 16th amendment


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #12112264 -

Prisoner#1 said:
46 of 48 states ratified the 18th amendment, it was prohibition

42 states ratified the 16th amendment



Thanks, I stand corrected.  It is interesting that the federal reserve took control of the money supply in the very same year.  Methinks it is no coincidence.


http://www.libertyforlife.com/banking/federal_reserve_bank.html


Oh, that's right...  It was the Federal Reserve Act that was never ratified...


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Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (02/28/10 09:52 AM)

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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: Cannabischarlie]
    #12121230 -

Cannabischarlie said:
we have a president who at least finally has the audacity to try what actually works,




wait...what?
the egg came before the chicken, just to clear that up

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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: Mr.Al]
    #12121254 -

Mr.Al said:
http://www.libertyforlife.com/banking/federal_reserve_bank.html

Oh, that's right...  It was the Federal Reserve Act that was never ratified...


From above website,
"However, in their efforts to dominate the world they have caused extraordinary pain and agony and even potentially the complete destruction of life on earth"

whoa whoa whoa they're taxing bacteria now?

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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: mycurious]
    #12124482 -

Yeah I am also interested in learning how tax leads to the destruction of all life on planet earth, including the animal kingdom which doesn't give a shit about taxes one way or another.


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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: learningtofly]
    #12162358 -

Does it make sense to either of you that production increases over time and yet money buys less?

If you can not ponder that then there is no helping you.


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Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: Mr.Al]
    #12163005 -

Quote:
Does it make sense to either of you that production increases over time and yet money buys less?


Money buys less over time? Really?

How much did a flat-panel 40 inch high definition television cost twenty years ago? Ten years ago? Five years ago? How about a laser printer? Or a laptop computer? A cellphone? Hell, even a 12,000 BTU air conditioner? Give your answer in number of US dollars at the time of purchase, please, not adjusted for inflation.




Phred


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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: Phred]
    #12163027 -

Phred said:
Quote:
Does it make sense to either of you that production increases over time and yet money buys less?


Money buys less over time? Really?

How much did a flat-panel 40 inch high definition television cost twenty years ago? Ten years ago? Five years ago? How about a laser printer? Or a laptop computer? A cellphone? Hell, even a 12,000 BTU air conditioner? Give your answer in number of US dollars at the time of purchase, please, not adjusted for inflation.




Phred



Yeah right.  Look at food & oil prices instead.

Technological innovation does drive down the prices of things like computers which are outdated 6 months after purchase.  A new car is cheaper once you drive it off the lot too.  Does that mean the dollar has magically increased in buying power throughout the economy?
Just because something is a bad investment (in terms of how it falls in value quickly) does not make it a "measuring stick" for the economy.

Things that people have to buy have been going up in price.

Certainly wages have not kept pace with cost of living increases.






http://www.shadowstats.com/


I included this graph so the asshats in the media won't pull the wool over your eyes with the "enhanced" (read: more crooked since the Clinton era) C.P.I. data.


Unemployment is also far higher than the "official" government stats...  The unemployment figures don't take into account people who have exceeded benefits, took crappy jobs (think engineer bagging groceries), retired early, or are working part-time (because that is all they could get).


The economic situation in America is worse than the news muppets would have you believe.





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Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (03/08/10 05:58 AM)

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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: Mr.Al]
    #12163165 -

Wow.  Either a 3% or a 6% inflation rate for food (or whatever they count, you still can't tell us).  What a vicious killer.  Of course, it is also quite foolish to ignore the things, some of which Phred listed, that have gone down in price simply because they are non-essential.  They are still things that most people buy.  I wonder if they factor in housing.  Can't do without some kinda housing, can ya?

Unemployment data are most definitely under-reported.  Always have been.  The stat to look at in that area is jobs lost or gained.  Factored against the number of jobs that must be gained every month to keep pace with population growth it offers a much more illustartive metric for the state of the economy. 

And then there are those cheerleaders in the media who tout a small GDP growth as indication of a turnaround.  So far they have amounted to a dead cat's bounce when thrown into the Grand Canyon.


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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: Mr.Al]
    #12163168 -

I agree with a lot of what you have to say, but on the issue of fiat currency you are as monomaniacally mistaken as Ron Paul and the rest of the gold bugs out there.

Yes, it is true that fiat currency can be manipulated by the issuer of said currency so as to result in hyper-inflation. That doesn't mean it must result in hyper-inflation. And, in fact, the US experience with fiat currency shows it has not resulted in hyper-inflation.

The only people who are hurt financially by the steady inflation of fiat currency which occurs at rates in the low single digits (as has been the case with US currency with the glaring exception of a couple of years in the Seventies) are those who do the equivalent of stuffing their savings under a mattress or burying it in a coffee can in the back yard or something. Everyone else either keeps up with inflation or beats it.

Your bemoaning the fact that in today's modern world people must educate themselves on the basics of common sense investment is more than just slightly ridiculous. There are a lot of skills today's humans must master which humans of a hundred years ago did not have to. And, of course, no one is stopping anyone from taking their spare cash and converting it to gold or platinum or silver rather than buying municipal bonds or term deposits.

Quote:
Just because something is a bad investment (in terms of how it falls in value quickly) does not make it a "measuring stick" for the economy.


The price of computers and cell phones and televisions is not dropping because they are becoming "outdated", but because they are becoming less expensive to produce. I am typing this on a computer almost a decade old. It still does everything I bought it to do, although it won't run HALO at astounding frame rates. This computer wasn't a "bad investment", nor was the 1994 BMW sitting in my driveway which still runs flawlessly. It is true that if I were to attempt to sell either the computer or the car, I would receive less for it than I paid for it, but I didn't buy either one as a financial investment. I bought one to transport me from place to place and I bought the other to communicate with people worldwide.

Quote:
Certainly wages have not kept pace with cost of living increases.


That is far from a certainty. Even if it were true (and it isn't, but let's pretend it is for the next little while) there is far more to compensation than simply wages. Medical benefits, vacation time, sick time, maternity leave, extended unemployment coverage, onsite day care centers, company cars, expense accounts, flex-time scheduling and many more must also rightfully be considered compensation, and all of those things are greater today than they were three or four decades ago. I started my full-time employment career in the early Seventies, and I can guaran-damn-tee you there is no way in hell I would trade working today to working back then, no matter what some single-issue website cobbles together for a graph. I know I am better off today in terms of how much stuff I end up with per hour of my time than I was the case forty years ago. I am not just deluding myself into thinking this is so, I know it is so - and so does anyone else who has been working that long.

Specie-based currency works in a non-technological society where productivity improvement occurs in increments barely measurable over the course of a decade. But they are the kiss of death in any society where the rate of increase of goods and services vastly outstrips the rate of discovery of new deposits of gold (or whatever).





Phred


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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: Phred]
    #12163374 -

As far as computers are concerned I meant that each model produced is technologically outdated in six months because new models produced are far superior so quickly... That is primarily why the prices fall so fast, it is certainly not a monetary phenomenon. 



It is odd that you have so little respect for the gold bugs who predicted the causes and consequences of the housing bubble we recently experienced.

The gold bugs you talk about are from the Austrian school of economics.

You can do a search for one of those gold bugs, Peter Schiff...

Look up "Peter Schiff was right" and see how many hits you get.

All the idiot mainstream economists were laughing at those from the Austrian school.

Now they all look like the fools they really are.

You are flat out wrong when it comes to the money supply...



Think man, is it not normal for prices to fall over time as productivity increases?  Aside from items that normally depreciate rapidly this is not the case.






Recall the Industrial Revolution, that is where we saw prices falling across the board.  The result was an increase in the standard of living at a rate never before seen in modern history.  Falling prices is normal in a prosperous economy experiencing increased productivity and should not be feared.




When you have been surrounded by bullshit economics for so long you believe in it no matter how little sense it makes.




As far as hyperinflation is concerned: given that government spending shows no sign of slowing down what makes you so skeptical of that possibility?  If some of the larger economies begin dumping dollars (kind of like back in 71 when Nixon took the dollar completely of the gold standard) we would see the dollar fall like a stone.


What I am trying to tell you is that the past and present false prosperity the U.S. is/has experienced was mortgaged with a future currency destabilization/crisis. 


Recall that the U.S. has experienced hyperinflation twice already, why so skeptical about one more time?


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (03/08/10 08:46 AM)

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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12163391 -

zappaisgod said:
Wow.  Either a 3% or a 6% inflation rate for food (or whatever they count, you still can't tell us).  What a vicious killer.  Of course, it is also quite foolish to ignore the things, some of which Phred listed, that have gone down in price simply because they are non-essential.  They are still things that most people buy.  I wonder if they factor in housing.  Can't do without some kinda housing, can ya?

Unemployment data are most definitely under-reported.  Always have been.  The stat to look at in that area is jobs lost or gained.  Factored against the number of jobs that must be gained every month to keep pace with population growth it offers a much more illustartive metric for the state of the economy. 

And then there are those cheerleaders in the media who tout a small GDP growth as indication of a turnaround.  So far they have amounted to a dead cat's bounce when thrown into the Grand Canyon.




I think that the part you are really missing is that the way the U.S. economy is being propped up...

The dollar "enjoys" the status of being the world reserve fiat currency.  This allows the federal government to engage in massive spending sprees without the public feeling the effect for years or even decades. 

If other nations begin dumping dollars wholesale we would see the purchasing power of the dollar fall dramatically domestically.


Lately we had seen a little bounce in the dollar due to the trouble that Greece in in.

If the euro falls first that would buy some time for the dollar, but I don't see that changing much in the long term.


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Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: Mr.Al]
    #12163401 -

Propped up against what, Al?  Commodities?  Specie?  Fecie?

Borrowing is what allows them to delay the piper.  Not fiat.


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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12163413 -

Propped up with debt.  The new money comes into existence through debt instruments.

It is not possible to amass anywhere near that much debt with commodity based mediums of exchange.  You run out of everyone elses' money before that is possible.

Roman empire was an exception, they debased there silver with worthless metal and experienced hyperinflation.

That is why Constitutional coin, or just free market money makes for a sound monetary system.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (03/08/10 08:57 AM)

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Re: Whining about higher taxes that don't even exist, and why trickle down economics is a joke. [Re: Mr.Al]
    #12163416 -

Why not?  Just declare it's value to be something else.  Regulating the coin and all, doncha know.


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