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OfflineCension
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Introduction and new project outline :)
    #11898693 - 01/25/10 04:30 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

This is my first post here and I wanted to begin by saying hello to everyone in the community! :smile:

Let me preface this also by saying that I am representing a overseas friend who does not have the luxury of steady internet access, so I will be acting as his surrogate in these forums.

Now, I myself am not a complete newbie to cultivation, but we both are fairly inexperienced in some of the newer techniques involving bulk substrates & casing procedures. Although I've not been an active member of these forums in the past, I have lurked here for many years and have spent countless hours reading & researching the topics and discussions in these forums. With that, I consider myself to have a good general knowledge of basic cultivation. My friend knows this, and has therefore asked for my assistance in his own quest for knowledge.

The following post outlines the current (low-budget) project from beginning to current day. Forgive me if it is a bit long-winded, but I am just trying to be as thorough as possible. My sincere thanks to anyone who sees it all the way through.

That being said-

The choice was made to begin with a general PF tek to get a feel for the new environment in regards to atmosphere, accessibility and limitations before venturing into the realm of bulk substrates and casings.

A PF cake mix was prepared using the materials available which were fine grade vermiculite, blender-ground brown rice and distilled water. The fine grade of the verm was a concern, but after reading several posts on the subject, it was determined that this variety was acceptable. To counter the fine verm, the brown rice flour was left slightly chunky (similar to the grade of the verm) as suggested.

Ten 1/2 pint jars were prepared using no additional filter except the top layer of verm, quad-punched lids affixed, foil covered, and sterilized in the PC. There was no washcloth or elevating rack used, so the bottom layer of jars rested directly on the floor of the PC.

After 24 hours, on the winter solstice day of December 21st, the jars were inoculated inside a custom Sterilite still-air box, half PF half B+. There was some issue with clogging of the needle which we figured was due to the fine grade of the verm, so some of the jars got an even 1cc of spore solution while others received almost an entire cc into a single hole due to over-pressing the plunger when clearing the clogged needle. The jars were then placed directly into a TiT incubator which maintains an even 85°F.

The cakes that were over-injected with solution due to clogging obviously began to colonize quicker, and after a week, three out of ten of the jars did not show any signs of mycelium growth whatsoever.

At around the 18 day mark, two of the B+ and one of the PF jars still showed no signs of germination and were discarded. The remaining three B+ jars appeared to be about 98% colonized at that point, while the other four PF strain jars remained at varying degrees of colonization.

At the 24 day mark, the B+ jars remained nearly entirely colonized except for a very slight indication of the verm showing through. The colonization of the other four PF jars seemed to have either slowed down dramatically or had halted entirely. In #1 and #2 of the four PF jars, the strong mycelial growth halted abruptly- #1 halfway colonized, #2 65% colonized. Jar #3 was at that point 75% colonized with the mycelium halting abruptly on one side and tapering off on the other. Jar #4 was 85% colonized with mycelium continuing to creep around the jar, albeit at a very decreased rate.

It was also noted that the substrate in all 7 of the remaining jars shrank into a slight hourglass shape, and condensation had collected on the walls of the jars. There was also a very slight brown discoloration of the myc in the PF strain jars right around the middle where the cakes had become concave. This slight browning did not look like any type of contamination discussed here, so they remained in the incubator. Also observed on PF jar #2 was two brown blobs forming which looked very much like premature pin heads smooshing up against the side of the glass. After determining that this was most likely the case, it was also left to further incubate.

At day 32 of incubation, and at 7 days after the B+ jars appeared fully colonized (except for the slight poking through of a bit of verm), the three jars were removed from the opaque incubator and placed in a clear, sanitized Sterilite bin at fruiting temperature of 75°F and exposed to a 6/18 light/darkness cycle. Of the remaining four PF jars, #1 and #2 did not show any sign of further colonization, #3 seemed to show a very slight indication of further colonization, and #4 appeared to be about fully colonized despite the center of the cake being sunken in.

This brings us to day 35, today. Here is the plan:

The three B+ jars will be experimented with. Two cakes will be birthed today and dunked in the fridge over night in filtered, H2O2 treated water, while the third will remain in the jar over night. Tomorrow, of the two dunked cakes, one will be double-end cased, and the other rolled. The third cake will simply be birthed, and all three will be placed in a shotgun terrarium with an ambient temp of 75°F and exposed to a 12/12 light cycle. They will be misted and fanned 2-3 times a day or as deemed necessary.

As for the remaining four PF jars, this is what the plan is for them and where the most feedback is sought:

While it seems likely that bacteria may be the culprit in halting the colonization of these cakes, we cannot be 100% sure of that. They may just be dehydrated or perhaps some other unknown factor exists. Since the mycelium that has colonized seems strong and uncontaminated, it has been decided that more experimentation is in order. All four cakes will be removed from the jars and the uncolonized portions of each carefully cut away with a sterile knife. What remains will be dunked in the fridge overnight in H2O2-treated H2O. After 18 hours, they will be placed into plastic ziploc baggies and crumbled to the size of cheerios. The crumbled cakes will then be combined, separated into two batches, and each will be cased into a 8x8x12 microwavable container using a 50/50 peat/verm mix. They will be incubated and then allowed to fruit in the same plastic containers, which are tall enough to accommodate the fruit. They will sit alongside the shotgun terrarium and be exposed to the same heating/lighting conditions.

So there you have it, the first part of the current project in it's entirety (the other part of the project will be outlined in a separate post). Thanks again to anyone who has had the patience to read this entire outline! My friend and I greatly appreciate any feedback that is offered by the community, and look forward to sharing with you what transpires!

On a side note, there was a few cc's of spore solution left in the PF & B+ syringes, and also in a syringe of Cambodian which was used in a different project, so it was decided that they would be used to create liquid cultures using the Super Easy Karo Tek . The three containers were inoculated last night and are resting comfortably in the incubator. Results to follow.

Cheers!


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InvisibleBlueIndian
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Re: Introduction and new project outline :) [Re: Cension]
    #11898760 - 01/25/10 04:43 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Welcome Cension! I`m new here and like you was a lurker for a looonng time. Sounds like you are doing things very similar to me and experiencing things alot the same. I too had some clogging of the needle and uneven growth because of it. I just dunked a few over the last few days and have a few more ready for dunking. Not sure about adding h202 to the dunk water. Haven`t heard to do that. I have done some casings before and got fruits but not as much as I should have so I`m going back to the cakes for now. Although I will say I recently used an LC I made from a print and the speed of colonising is crazy! I`m venturing into the grains too so after the cakes are flushed I`ll try some bulk....although I`m not too interested in messing with dung. Probably use coco/verm mix. Anyway....sounds like you guys are going in the right direction. There`s tons more ppl here to help you than me for sure. Wlcome and good luck!


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Introduction and new project outline :) [Re: Cension]
    #11899034 - 01/25/10 05:28 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Let me preface this also by saying that I am representing a overseas friend who does not have the luxury of steady internet access, so I will be acting as his surrogate in these forums.




If you say so.  :mushroomgrow: :smile:

For the PF cakes that stopped colonizing, good luck. :frown:  I wouldn't soak mycelium in H2O2 for any length of time, but there's little to lose there - I'd probably have given up on anything that stopped growing at 3 weeks plus...

Peace
-PS


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Invisibleprismism
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Re: Introduction and new project outline :) [Re: Cension]
    #11899109 - 01/25/10 05:41 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

tldnr.
can someone hook me up with the cliffsnotes version of cension's post?


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OfflineCension
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Re: Introduction and new project outline :) [Re: BlueIndian]
    #11901885 - 01/25/10 11:44 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for the welcome BlueIndian.

As for adding hydrogen peroxide to the dunk solution, I have seen the process referenced in numerous posts and I thought that given the chances of bacterial infection of the uncolonized parts, this additive certainly couldn't hurt anything.

The other part of this project was The Quart Jar Way - Revisited. These jars did not begin to colonize nearly as quickly as described in the tek, probably because of low ambient temperature, but have been moved to a warmer climate and are coming along nicely. This will be detailed in another post.

I was very excited to learn of such an easy LC tek as the one that was experimented with. We hope this will speed things along nicely in the future.

The next project on hand is a WBS spawn cased to 50/50 using Penis Envy strain. Wish us luck with that one!

Keep an eye out for my posts- detailed reports and pics to follow. And thanks for your welcome! Good luck with your own endeavors!


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OfflineCension
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Re: Introduction and new project outline :) [Re: Cension]
    #11901955 - 01/25/10 11:53 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Hi Prismism!

Quote:

If you say so.




You know, just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

Quote:

For the PF cakes that stopped colonizing, good luck.




Thanks. Many have reported great success with simply cutting away the uncolonized part and casing the remains, so it seems like it is worth a shot!

Quote:

I wouldn't soak mycelium in H2O2 for any length of time, but there's little to lose there - I'd probably have given up on anything that stopped growing at 3 weeks plus...




I have heard it referenced numerous times here that adding a capful of peroxide to the dunk water can be beneficial for fighting off bacteria, so we figure it couldn't hurt.

Thanks for your response!


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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: Introduction and new project outline :) [Re: Cension]
    #11901976 - 01/25/10 11:56 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cension said:
I have heard it referenced numerous times here that adding a capful of peroxide to the dunk water can be beneficial for fighting off bacteria, so we figure it couldn't hurt.




Peroxide is useful against bacteria, true. But it's also harmful to mycelium.
So you aren't going to have much luck with peroxide unless you catch the infection early and the cake is otherwise healthy.
But like you say, it can't hurt. If the cake is dead, it's not getting any deader.


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OfflineCension
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Re: Introduction and new project outline :) [Re: Cension]
    #11902063 - 01/26/10 12:08 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

tldnr.
can someone hook me up with the cliffsnotes version of cension's post?




Like I said, just being thorough, but for those with little patience:

10 PF jars knocked up 1/2 & 1/2 2 strains- PF & B+
3 cakes never colonized, 4 halted colonization mid way, 3 are fully colonized
Partial colonized cakes being dissected, dunked and cased
Karo LC tek followed

The details are in the details, which is were feedback is sought. Too many times have I seen users post questions where follow-ups were required because the details were not given.


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OfflineCension
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Re: Introduction and new project outline :) [Re: Cension]
    #11902101 - 01/26/10 12:11 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Peroxide is useful against bacteria, true. But it's also harmful to mycelium.
So you aren't going to have much luck with peroxide unless you catch the infection early and the cake is otherwise healthy.
But like you say, it can't hurt. If the cake is dead, it's not getting any deader.




Thanks for the input Doc_T. So peroxide isn't advised unless the bacterial infection is caught early, hm? That will definitely be taken into consideration. Perhaps another experiment- dunk 2 cakes with, and 2 cakes without the peroxide.


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InvisibleShea25
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Re: Introduction and new project outline :) [Re: Cension]
    #11902118 - 01/26/10 12:13 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

putting small amounts of h202 into the dunk water is just a waste of h2o2. The h2o2 will just revert back into h2o when sitting in a container oxidizing. There really should be no need at all to use it.


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OfflineCension
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Re: Introduction and new project outline :) [Re: Shea25]
    #11902267 - 01/26/10 12:31 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

putting small amounts of h202 into the dunk water is just a waste of h2o2. The h2o2 will just revert back into h2o when sitting in a container oxidizing. There really should be no need at all to use it.




Man, so many people here are very misinformed then; I've seen it suggested numerous times! Thanks for the advice.


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InvisibleBlueIndian
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Re: Introduction and new project outline :) [Re: Cension]
    #11902550 - 01/26/10 01:09 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Not to be an ass Cension but really I haven`t heard of h202 for dunking. And the above contributer`s being Shea and Doc seem to know their stuff. I`m new to it all and open to quality advice....with a grain of salt. Sometime`s you have to be open to advice and really listen to experience. If you are trying to kill a bad bacteria, is it not going to have an affect on what you DO want to survive?? Just think about it.........


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Re: Introduction and new project outline :) [Re: Cension]
    #11902569 - 01/26/10 01:12 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cension said:
Quote:

putting small amounts of h202 into the dunk water is just a waste of h2o2. The h2o2 will just revert back into h2o when sitting in a container oxidizing. There really should be no need at all to use it.




Man, so many people here are very misinformed then; I've seen it suggested numerous times! Thanks for the advice.





no disrespect directed towards anyone but you definately have to pay attention to exatly who is giving you the advice...alot of people THINK they know what they're doing and honestly believe they are giving you good advice when it is infact horrible advice and could completely ruin your grow...


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OfflineCension
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Re: Introduction and new project outline :) [Re: biologys]
    #11902699 - 01/26/10 01:29 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Not to be an ass Cension but really I haven`t heard of h202 for dunking. And the above contributer`s being Shea and Doc seem to know their stuff. I`m new to it all and open to quality advice....with a grain of salt. Sometime`s you have to be open to advice and really listen to experience. If you are trying to kill a bad bacteria, is it not going to have an affect on what you DO want to survive?? Just think about it.........





Quote:

no disrespect directed towards anyone but you definately have to pay attention to exatly who is giving you the advice...alot of people THINK they know what they're doing and honestly believe they are giving you good advice when it is infact horrible advice and could completely ruin your grow...




Just doing a quick search of the forums comes up with several posts including this one where users like hawksapprentice and scatmanrav , who have fairly decent member ratings and thousands of posts suggest using H2O2 in the dunk water. I have also seen it suggested by some of the oldest and most respected cultivators in these forums. I think I do a fairly good job in determining who's advice I should pay attention to most while considering everyone's input at the same time.

But don't worry guys, I'm not butthurt over anything. Thanks for everyone's input, it's all very beneficial :smile:


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Re: Introduction and new project outline :) [Re: Cension]
    #11902710 - 01/26/10 01:31 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

If you want to waste h2o2 thats fine I have never used it there no need and im sure 90% people here dont as well


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OfflineCension
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Re: Introduction and new project outline :) [Re: Shea25]
    #11902797 - 01/26/10 01:42 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

If you want to waste h2o2 thats fine I have never used it there no need and im sure 90% people here dont as well




I don't think a capful of H2O2 which costs 98¢ a bottle is really that much of a waste when experimenting with different techniques. The budget is tight, but not that tight!

That being said, perhaps only one cake will be dunked with the added solution to see if there is any difference, which the consensus seems to indicate will not.

What is your opinion of keeping the dunked cakes in the fridge vs. at room temperature? Keep them dunked for 12 hours? 18? 24? Seems users like RoadKill and agar have differing opinions, what's yours?

Thanks in advance.


Edited by Cension (01/26/10 01:51 AM)


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Invisiblebiologys
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Re: Introduction and new project outline :) [Re: Cension]
    #11902832 - 01/26/10 01:48 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cension said:
Quote:

If you want to waste h2o2 thats fine I have never used it there no need and im sure 90% people here dont as well




I don't think a capful of H2O2 which costs 98¢ a bottle is really that much of a waste when experimenting with different techniques. The budget is tight, but not that tight!





agree'd but i must say that RR is by far one of the best in this game from what i've seen the past 6 months, and I've seen him say several times in the past few days alone that peroxide causes more harm then anything to mycelium, so going by that alone I myself am staying away from it, i will definately take his word, along with few others that say you shouldn't use it unless you absolutely have to..no use in risking it.


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Re: Introduction and new project outline :) [Re: biologys]
    #11902849 - 01/26/10 01:50 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

the only thing h2o2 is good for is to combat cob web mold. use it in a 3% solution. Thats all its really good for when it comes to mushrooms


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OfflineCension
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Re: Introduction and new project outline :) [Re: Shea25]
    #11902857 - 01/26/10 01:52 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Ok guys, thanks so much for the advice!!! :smile:


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Introduction and new project outline :) [Re: Cension]
    #11906320 - 01/26/10 05:48 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

You know, just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you.




Well, I'm not (paranoid), but thanks for confirming the setup. :lol:

Quote:

Thanks. Many have reported great success with simply cutting away the uncolonized part and casing the remains, so it seems like it is worth a shot!




Oh yeah, it'll work for a while at least and there's less waste that way.

Quote:


I have heard it referenced numerous times here that adding a capful of peroxide to the dunk water can be beneficial for fighting off bacteria, so we figure it couldn't hurt.




Then be sure to get the 25% H2O2 from a hydroponics store to do the definitive experiment. :bomb: Be sure to post pics.

@Doc_T:
Quote:

If the cake is dead, it's not getting any deader.




Damn, that is so Zen. :awecid:

Peace
-PS


--------------------


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Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Grain Prep  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 


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