EntheogenicPeace said:

Just because some people are "losers" who want to mooch off others & not contribute to society, does not mean that all are.

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You just use this false assumption to justify your selfishness & lack of desire to help those who want to help themselves (& their families.)

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lines said:

zappa the idea that working people should have at minimum have a living wage is not the same as saying incompetent people shouldnt be fired.

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Nunbuh_Chrubble said:

This conversation is beyond hopeless.

No matter what your dumbass ignorant opinion is of brown immigrants, you'd have to be really stupid to deny that slavery exists in the USA.

The slave trade is booming today just like ever. Many families in "hopeless shithole" countries sell their daughters and sons into the slave trade, many of them to be used as prostitutes and sex slaves, others to become house servants and farm workers.

Hell, even some executives of the World Bank got busted owning slaves! The fact of the matter is that human beings and human labor are cheap these days. You can easily buy a person for anywhere between $500 and %5,000.

Endentured servitude is a whole 'nother topic, but is also very prevalent.

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EntheogenicPeace said:

Forget North Korea, Zimbabwe, etc. There are countless millions, even into the billions, of hard-working poor people (or unemployed poor people who would seize the opportunity to go to school and/or work hard to improve the live of themselves & their family) who live in countries where the U.S. exports arms to and/or global businesses operate in... & thus provide funds for the rulers to have their police & military & maintain control over a population not terribly thrilled about their status... who despite their hard work or desire for meaningful education and/or employment live in poverty w/o quality housing, sanitation, healthcare, education for their children, and even food & water for around one billion. While at the same time those at the top of the global economic system live in luxury, often deriving their profits from the hard work of these people (e.g. Starbucks CEO compared to the farmers who grow Starbucks coffee in Ethiopia.)

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If one's basic principle of morality is some form of, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you," which most religions/societies claim that it is, then those currently in the privileged minority (which means both outside as well as inside countries where such a situation is pervasive) have an ethical obligation to pay living wages & the economic development/educational opportunities that comes with it on behalf of the hard-working poor people (who often produce the goods that they consume & their economies are enriched by), or those marginalized/unemployed but who want to contribute if given the opportunity. If, however, one's morality is based on some other belief, then this is not necessarily the case.

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P.S. Although I'm not going to provide an example for every cause-and-effect that you ask about, industrial pollution does contribute to dirty water in India (and plenty of other places.) It has been well-documented where Coca-Cola bottling plants in parts of rural India, for example, have released waste water contained heavy metals out into nearby farmland, rendering it unproductive. This is an example of a myriad of factors (including overuse of freshwater by said plants) that have been working against poor farmers there, & have resulted in the greatest wave of suicides in history among the rural poor over the last few decades in India. The guilty parties in this particular example are people having both lighter & darker skin, in the U.S. & India alike. If these people adhered to the Golden Rule (which they do not but I'm sure that they publicly profess that they do), then yes, they have an obligation to provide assistance to the displaced farmers & their families. Moreover, they wouldn't have caused the environmental degradation & the ensuing human suffering in the first place if they did adhere to it.

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EntheogenicPeace said:

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...then the rest of us can fuck off on the job and get paid
like they did only we'll make more money because we're american

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Is that serious? I once heard someone (a native-born U.S. citizen) say something to the effect of, "They (migrant Hispanic workers) work hard & make me look bad." These people want "capitalism" when it suits their interests, but don't want it when it doesn't... not a commitment to principle at all.

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EntheogenicPeace said:

I once heard someone (a native-born U.S. citizen) say something to the effect of, "They (migrant Hispanic workers) work hard & make me look bad."

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These people want "capitalism" when it suits their interests, but don't want it when it doesn't... not a commitment to principle at all.

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To play the role of capitalist employer for a minute, why should people who don't want to work as hard as someone else demand that employers should pay them more for doing a worse job?

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Isn't this the "socialist" sense of entitlement that diminishes innovation & productivity?

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If you want to use government to put up these barriers to attempt to protect your own interests & thus interfere with the "free market,"

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the barriers are already up, have been for more than a century, we have
laws regarding legal immigration and a large number have taken that
route, they've become citizens and put back into their communities, not
just take from them and send it all back over the border via western
union, the two biggest exports from the US to mexico right now is
automanufacturers and american cash... they're such a boost to our economy

EntheogenicPeace said:

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Hard-working poor people are a rarity.

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Globally, this is not true. Further, if one claims that the U.S. is a "Christian nation," which most on the American right do, then the status quo cannot be justified based on the teachings of Christ. Any sincere adherent of this man's teachings would be adamant in their support of fair trade. However, if one does not claim to be such, then it is of no matter because whether working people (& those who want to work but don' have employment) throughout the world should be paid a living wage instead of living in poverty (for those who are) is not something that is correct or incorrect as it is an opinion, a preference that is based on one's underlying worldview.

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EntheogenicPeace said:

If you don't want illegal immigration, that's fine, but it wouldn't happen w/o those in power in the U.S. business/government establishment wanting it to happen for their own self-interest. If an American citizen doesn't like it, then they should hold the business/government establishment responsible instead of supporting them either by voting for these candidates & the business interests that they represent, or by not voting.

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To scapegoat migrant Hispanic workers as the cause of society's ills (instead of arguing that it is an effect of a policy or lack thereof which is flawed)

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when they could be removed by peaceful & democratic policy if the political/business will was there, is characteristic of (relatively) poor, uneducated, usually racist, and/or often rather lazy native-born U.S. citizens (which I'm not calling you as you have said you are a productive worker & I'm not disputing.)

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zappaisgod said:

Forced?  They can always fuck off back home.

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luvdemshrooms said:

No-one forced them to enter a country illegally.

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llama farmer said:

zappaisgod said:

Forced?  They can always fuck off back home.

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luvdemshrooms said:

No-one forced them to enter a country illegally.

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Except you did when you destroyed their countries for several decades.

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