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Re: redistributing wealth... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11213877 -

2 things:

Wealthy people will not disappear, EVER...

Weathy people pay most of the taxes because they get most of the money. When that money gets redistributed by for example, capping maximum yearly earnings and raising minimum wage, the middle and lower class will pay more taxes - balancing it out. It's important to note that in a system like this the 3-6% difference(or what ever the difference is)  in income taxes will be drawn closer to the median value to compensate for the redistribution of wealth. Thus as far as taxes are concerned nothing will change, just the well being of bottom 50%.


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

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Re: redistributing wealth... [Re: mozhual]
    #11214091 -

mozhual said:
2 things:

Wealthy people will not disappear, EVER...

Weathy people pay most of the taxes because they get most of the money. When that money gets redistributed by for example, capping maximum yearly earnings and raising minimum wage, the middle and lower class will pay more taxes - balancing it out. It's important to note that in a system like this the 3-6% difference(or what ever the difference is)  in income taxes will be drawn closer to the median value to compensate for the redistribution of wealth. Thus as far as taxes are concerned nothing will change, just the well being of bottom 50%.


I'm curious.  How do you redistribute wealth by capping maximum earnings?  If I am a fine, productive and brilliant earner but my reward for all that hard work is nothing, why would I work hard?  Answer, I won't.  If I reach the cap in January I aint working no more, bossman.  Thanks and I'll see you around Christmas time.

For your edification in 2007 the top 25% paid 87% of the federal income taxes.  The next 25% paid 10% and the rest, the bottom 50% paid 3%, which is virtually nothing.  They already get a free ride.  I don't see how eliminating wealth at the top, which are the people who buy the stuff the next level makes, benefits anyone anywhere ever.


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Re: redistributing wealth... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11214546 -

Quote:
I don't see how eliminating wealth at the top, which are the people who buy the stuff the next level makes, benefits anyone anywhere ever.


It is not eliminating the wealth, it is controlling the flow. If you simply just increase the minimum wage, people at the top will increase their wage/bonuses whether they deserve it or not. The cap would need to be algorithmized to match the reflection of the current market, so that some asshole in a company going bankrupt doesn't hand him self millions of dollars in bonuses(that is also why I said earnings and not simply wages). It could also just simply be a % of what the company earns (while not actually fixing the problem, it does at least put a band aid on it and prevent one form of ceo's screwing over their employees).

Quote:
If I am a fine, productive and brilliant earner but my reward for all that hard work is nothing, why would I work hard?  Answer, I won't. 


Time and time again science has provided us with results based on the "incentives" complex of corporate america. IT DOESN'T WORK. These studies provide solid evidence that people actually preform WORSE when monetary incentives are on the table, time and time again. Adding a cap insures that the people earning the most get their fair share of the GDP earnings and can live more then comfortably with out allowing them to easily take advantage of the system.

EDIT:
Quote:
If I reach the cap in January I aint working no more, bossman.  Thanks and I'll see you around Christmas time.


Bossman, "You're Fired"

Not to mention the simple fact that most employers would never just give them a full year's salary up front.


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

Edited by mozhual (10/09/09 11:11 AM)

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Re: redistributing wealth... [Re: mozhual]
    #11214640 -

All that flowery bullshit sounds like something from a militant dictator in a third world country.

"We are going to help the people of this country, just give us total control of the economy first!"




--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: redistributing wealth... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11214702 -

Not control, restraint.


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

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Re: redistributing wealth... [Re: mozhual]
    #11214715 -

mozhual said:
Quote:
I don't see how eliminating wealth at the top, which are the people who buy the stuff the next level makes, benefits anyone anywhere ever.


It is not eliminating the wealth, it is controlling the flow. If you simply just increase the minimum wage, people at the top will increase their wage/bonuses whether they deserve it or not. The cap would need to be algorithmized to match the reflection of the current market, so that some asshole in a company going bankrupt doesn't hand him self millions of dollars in bonuses(that is also why I said earnings and not simply wages). It could also just simply be a % of what the company earns (while not actually fixing the problem, it does at least put a band aid on it and prevent one form of ceo's screwing over their employees).


What if the company is doing fabulously well because the CEO is brilliant?  What if making it a percent leads to the CEO cooking the books?  Shouldn't the shareholders be in charge of that and not you?  Screwing over the employees?  They are free to move about the cabin.  Leave.  Get another job.  Fuck off. 
Quote:
Quote:
If I am a fine, productive and brilliant earner but my reward for all that hard work is nothing, why would I work hard?  Answer, I won't.  If I reach the cap in January I aint working no more, bossman.  Thanks and I'll see you around Christmas time.


Time and time again science has provided us with results based on the "incentives" complex of corporate america. IT DOESN'T WORK. These studies provide solid evidence that people actually preform WORSE when monetary incentives are on the table, time and time again. Adding a cap insures that the people earning the most get their fair share of the GDP earnings and can live more then comfortably with out allowing them to easily take advantage of the system.


Really?  Please link some of this "science".  I tend to rely on BF skinner for a scientific description of the  effects of incentives.  Because I'll tell you right now that if I reach your cap in January I'm spending the rest of the year at home.  My employees are going to be fucked as well.  What a bunch of Marxist crap.  "Fair share"?  According to who?  You?


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Re: redistributing wealth... [Re: mozhual]
    #11214717 -

mozhual said:
Not control, restraint.



Government is that which needs to be restrained.  You appear to advocate giving that which demonstrates the least morality more power.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: redistributing wealth... [Re: mozhual]
    #11214731 -

mozhual said:
EDIT:
Quote:
If I reach the cap in January I aint working no more, bossman.  Thanks and I'll see you around Christmas time.


Bossman, "You're Fired"

Not to mention the simple fact that most employers would never just give them a full year's salary up front.



I own the company.  I reached my earnings cap in January.  You are all laid off.  If I feel like it I'll see you next year.  Or not.  Why bother?


--------------------

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Re: redistributing wealth... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11214734 -

A government is only as good as its people. In the US, yes this would fail horrible. Regardless it is still a good system, the country just needs to be educated enough to elect real leaders (for president, the senate, and the house) and not the crappy bullshit we've been fed.


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

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Re: redistributing wealth... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11214746 -

This doesn't address the plethora of problems in singularly owned companies that become massive, but that is a rarity. Excess earnings can also be dealt with in many many different ways.

The point is the monetary incentives need to be completely removed from "doing work".


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: redistributing wealth... [Re: mozhual]
    #11214751 -

mozhual said:
A government is only as good as its people. In the US, yes this would fail horrible. Regardless it is still a good system, the country just needs to be educated enough to elect real leaders (for president, the senate, and the house) and not the crappy bullshit we've been fed.



What most don't see is that central economic planning allows for the most corruption to occur.  The thieves have control over the creation of money.  You want to give them more power?  Insane.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: redistributing wealth... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11214761 -

The point is to not elect thieves in the first place with a stupid populous.

If it makes you feel better, this is a dream world.


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: redistributing wealth... [Re: mozhual]
    #11214777 -

mozhual said:
This doesn't address the plethora of problems in singularly owned companies that become massive, but that is a rarity. Excess earnings can also be dealt with in many many different ways.

The point is the monetary incentives need to be completely removed from "doing work".


I have dealt quite effectively with the excess earnings of rich people my entire career.  They buy my services.
"Monetary incentives need to be removed from doing work."  I can't wait to see the "science" behind this.  Why would anybody be so stupid as to work?


--------------------

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Re: redistributing wealth... [Re: mozhual]
    #11214787 -

mozhual said:
The point is to not elect thieves in the first place with a stupid populous.



You aren't understanding that to prevent abuse of power you must not give government more power and "responsibility".

If you grow government you can not expect it to always behave benevolently.  It is only feasible to keep small government in it's place.

Power attracts corruption like shit attracts flies.  If it's an elephant turd have fun dealing with the flies.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: redistributing wealth... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11214798 -

zappaisgod said:
mozhual said:
This doesn't address the plethora of problems in singularly owned companies that become massive, but that is a rarity. Excess earnings can also be dealt with in many many different ways.

The point is the monetary incentives need to be completely removed from "doing work".


I have dealt quite effectively with the excess earnings of rich people my entire career.  They buy my services.
"Monetary incentives need to be removed from doing work."  I can't wait to see the "science" behind this.  Why would anybody be so stupid as to work?




Holy shit.

Go test out that theory and start working for free...


Seriously, W.T.F.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (10/09/09 11:48 AM)

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Re: redistributing wealth... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11214810 -

You can work for fame, for respect, for the feeling of importance, FOR STATUS... I'll link the studies.

Here you go, nice short vid: http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

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Re: redistributing wealth... [Re: mozhual]
    #11214830 -

I work for money.  I don't much give a shit what people think about me.


--------------------

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Re: redistributing wealth... [Re: mozhual]
    #11214886 -

mozhual said:
You can work for fame, for respect, for the feeling of importance, FOR STATUS... I'll link the studies.

Here you go, nice short vid: http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html



I concur with zap on this.  I work for money, I wish it wasn't funny money but it is.

All that other stuff can fuck off.

EDIT

Benefits, weekend differentials, health insurance, and all that cool shit is outstanding.



--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (10/09/09 12:03 PM)

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Re: redistributing wealth... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11214899 -

Lol, all I can say is watch the video at least.


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

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Re: redistributing wealth... [Re: mozhual]
    #11214913 -

mozhual said:
Lol



What?  Work is about economizing scarce resources (in this case time and effort) to attain maximum practical utility of said resources.

That jerk was a speechwriter for that hypocrite Al Gore?!?


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (10/09/09 12:09 PM)

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