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KauaiOrca
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8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet
#24014102 - 01/16/17 09:19 AM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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DAVOS, Switzerland (AP) -- The gap between the super-rich and the poorest half of the global population is starker than previously thought, with just eight men, from Bill Gates to Michael Bloomberg, owning as much wealth as 3.6 billion people, according to an analysis by Oxfam released Monday. ............................
As much as I like to incentivize and reward hard work and innovation, this is simply outrageous. The solutions seem simple ... at some point, there is going to have to be some kind of net worth tax ... like when your personal wealth exceeds a billion dollars perhaps ... and when your personal wealth exceeds a certain number, you need to allow for transparent auditing to disclose all the details under penalty of perjury.
It's simply not healthy at all that 8 people, however talented they are, control that much wealth on a planet with 7 billion people.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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DividedQuantum
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
#24014181 - 01/16/17 09:53 AM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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Yeah. There are about 1,800 billionaires in the world, and about 3.5 billion people below the U.N. poverty line. More than 80% of the world live in countries in which the income differential is widening. I don't know that there is any solution to this egregiousness (there probably isn't), but shit's fucked.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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The Ecstatic
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: DividedQuantum] 2
#24014333 - 01/16/17 11:00 AM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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the solution is more free market capitalism
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qman
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: The Ecstatic]
#24014366 - 01/16/17 11:11 AM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: the solution is more free market capitalism 
We don't practice much free market capitalism, it's called crony capitalism.
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KauaiOrca
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: The Ecstatic]
#24014421 - 01/16/17 11:34 AM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: the solution is more free market capitalism 
I tend to agree ... the problem is we have almost none of this. What we have is a mutant form of predatory capitalism combined with government collusion.
The brand of capitalism that Adam Smith wrote about centuries ago is nothing like what we have now. Interestingly, many of the Founding Fathers, including George Washington were not in favor of allowing large corporations to form in the United States and were vehemently against the formation of political parties.
When you've got corporations bigger than states that fund political parties, it's a recipe for serious problems. That's exactly what we've got.
Our constitution was never constructed to be able to deal with corporations the size of what we have today with the ability to write the laws for Congress.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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The Ecstatic
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca] 3
#24014475 - 01/16/17 11:58 AM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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Communism Capitalism is great on paper but it doesn't work well in practice.
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KauaiOrca
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: The Ecstatic]
#24014494 - 01/16/17 12:07 PM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Communism Capitalism is great on paper but it doesn't work well in practice.
As someone a lot smarter than me once said, "if men were angels there'd be no need for government at all."
John Adams wrote at great length that he believed it was the Bank of England that truly caused the American Revolution. They were squeezing the colonies as punishment for allowing different competing currencies to be used that were really working to stimulate the economy at the time and the Bank of England didn't like it. They clamped down and it had a crushing impact at the time.
That's what gave so many of the founding fathers such a strong opposition to corporations. That, and they were seeing evidence of how corporations were involved in politics in England and they didn't want that. For years, in most of the states, corporations had to get a special charter that was only good for 10 years and they had to prove they were operating in the public's best interest in order to get it.
The thought of corporations funding campaigns would have been utterly repulsive to them.
Of course, that changed a lot over the years.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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The Ecstatic
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca] 3
#24014508 - 01/16/17 12:09 PM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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they failed to see the natural progression of an unregulated market, thats exactly my point.
Or they did, and tried, and failed, to regulate it. Either way, free market capitalism is not the answer to this problem.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
#24014519 - 01/16/17 12:14 PM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said: The brand of capitalism that Adam Smith wrote about centuries ago is nothing like what we have now. Interestingly, many of the Founding Fathers, including George Washington were not in favor of allowing large corporations to form in the United States and were vehemently against the formation of political parties.
So true, and the irony is that the elections of the late 1700s and early 1800s were some of the most bitter and contentious in our nation's history. The Federalist and Republican parties formed, and it was all downhill from there, politically.
Jefferson and his ilk were not only against corporations and big business, they were even against a central bank. I guess Hamilton had the vision that such a thing would be necessary, and founded it as Secretary of the Treasury under Washington, but bank note speculation became a huge deal. There were corruption scandals involving Congress, and many people became superrich through speculation in bank paper. In some respects, though very different in scale over time, America has had a continuous thread running from the beginning, as far as the unscrupulous making of money is concerned.
"It is much to be wished that every discouragement should be thrown in the way of men who undertake to trade without capital. The consumers pay for it in the end, and the debts contracted, and bankruptcies occasioned by such commercial adventurers, bring burden and disgrace on our country." --Thomas Jefferson
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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KauaiOrca
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: The Ecstatic]
#24014530 - 01/16/17 12:17 PM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: they failed to see the natural progression of an unregulated market, thats exactly my point.
Or they did, and tried, and failed, to regulate it. Either way, free market capitalism is not the answer to this problem.
I think the answer, ultimately, is a much better system for screening and identifying better leaders before the election happens.
Seriously, the screening and testing process for a burger flipper at Mickey D's is more rigorous than what's needed to run for Congress.
I think candidates (Presidents, Senators, House Representatives and Governors) should all have to complete a thorough psychological and mental fitness test, a health test and answer, under oath a series of questions with teethy jail time if they are caught lying. Their finances should be audited prior to running and all that should be made transparent ... then limit politicians to a total of 15 years TOTAL of elected office. Obviously, get corporations out of the business of funding campaigns and writing legislation too.
That would help a lot.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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The Ecstatic
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: DividedQuantum]
#24014531 - 01/16/17 12:18 PM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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Adam Smith is a great read, but he couldn't possibly foresee today's world.
It'd be like using Joseph Conrad as a source for imperialism in the Middle East. Same topic, wildly different situation.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca] 1
#24014534 - 01/16/17 12:19 PM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: they failed to see the natural progression of an unregulated market, thats exactly my point.
Or they did, and tried, and failed, to regulate it. Either way, free market capitalism is not the answer to this problem.
I think the answer, ultimately, is a much better system for screening and identifying better leaders before the election happens.
Seriously, the screening and testing process for a burger flipper at Mickey D's is more rigorous than what's needed to run for Congress.
I think candidates (Presidents, Senators, House Representatives and Governors) should all have to complete a thorough psychological and mental fitness test, a health test and answer, under oath a series of questions with teethy jail time if they are caught lying. Their finances should be audited prior to running and all that should be made transparent ... then limit politicians to a total of 15 years TOTAL of elected office. Obviously, get corporations out of the business of funding campaigns and writing legislation too.
That would help a lot.
This would do a tremendous deal of good, but we're still working within the framework of capitalism when it comes to economics. And capitalism is inherently flawed, imo.
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ballsalsa
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca] 1
#24014696 - 01/16/17 01:11 PM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
I think the answer, ultimately, is a much better system for screening and identifying better leaders before the election happens.
Seriously, the screening and testing process for a burger flipper at Mickey D's is more rigorous than what's needed to run for Congress.
I think candidates (Presidents, Senators, House Representatives and Governors) should all have to complete a thorough psychological and mental fitness test, a health test and answer, under oath a series of questions with teethy jail time if they are caught lying.
sounds good on paper, but this seems like a system that could be easily gamed by people in positions to write the screening parameters. It seems to me, it would be hard to backtrack once implemented since the people elected to repeal such a policy would themselves have to have passed the screening process.
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Luddite
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: ballsalsa]
#24014746 - 01/16/17 01:28 PM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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Venezuela, the latest socialist nightmare is falling apart.
Under the leadership of President Hugo Chávez and now President Nicolás Maduro, the accumulation of power in the executive branch and erosion of human rights guarantees have enabled the government to intimidate, censor, and prosecute its critics, leading to increasing levels of self-censorship. Leading opposition politicians have been arbitrarily arrested, prosecuted, convicted, and barred from running for office. Police abuse, poor prison conditions, and impunity for security forces when they commit such abuses as arbitrary arrests, beatings, and denial of basic due process remain serious problems. Other concerns include lack of access to basic medicines and supplies—the result of problematic government policies—and continuous harassment of human rights defenders by government officials.
https://www.hrw.org/americas/venezuela
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/05/venezuela-is-falling-apart/481755/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/11/venezuela-on-the-brink-a-journey-through-a-country-in-crisis
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KauaiOrca
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: The Ecstatic]
#24014750 - 01/16/17 01:30 PM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
This would do a tremendous deal of good, but we're still working within the framework of capitalism when it comes to economics. And capitalism is inherently flawed, imo.
I think all economic systems have flaws and vulnerabilities that can be exploited by the wealth classes.
What we have now, today, however is so utterly ridiculous in terms of the advantages it gives the wealth and political classes. We ultimately need more citizen watchdog/oversite groups that must adhere to stricter transparency laws than Congress does.
No easy solutions as the wealthy are clever and innovative when they work at reducing competition and controlling the legal framework.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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KauaiOrca
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: ballsalsa]
#24014755 - 01/16/17 01:33 PM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
I think the answer, ultimately, is a much better system for screening and identifying better leaders before the election happens.
Seriously, the screening and testing process for a burger flipper at Mickey D's is more rigorous than what's needed to run for Congress.
I think candidates (Presidents, Senators, House Representatives and Governors) should all have to complete a thorough psychological and mental fitness test, a health test and answer, under oath a series of questions with teethy jail time if they are caught lying.
sounds good on paper, but this seems like a system that could be easily gamed by people in positions to write the screening parameters. It seems to me, it would be hard to backtrack once implemented since the people elected to repeal such a policy would themselves have to have passed the screening process.
All systems can be and ARE gamed including what we have now. To make it work, we'd need a non-partisan oversite group to keep political meddling out of it and a lot of sunlight and transparency.
Our current system is rewarding the biggest most outrageous liars. We just had an election that put two of the biggest liars with the longest track records of dishonesty into the top spots. That's gotta change.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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The Ecstatic
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
#24014801 - 01/16/17 01:50 PM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
This would do a tremendous deal of good, but we're still working within the framework of capitalism when it comes to economics. And capitalism is inherently flawed, imo.
I think all economic systems have flaws and vulnerabilities that can be exploited by the wealth classes.
What we have now, today, however is so utterly ridiculous in terms of the advantages it gives the wealth and political classes. We ultimately need more citizen watchdog/oversite groups that must adhere to stricter transparency laws than Congress does.
No easy solutions as the wealthy are clever and innovative when they work at reducing competition and controlling the legal framework.
I agree completely, but thats why I think putting the means of production into the hands of the citizens is the best way to curtail the wealthy's influence. We bend for them now because, in the current system, we simply can't do without them. Now, at the same time, doing nothing to stop the wealthy's ownership of our political system, it won't make it bit of difference if the state controls the means of production.
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KauaiOrca
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: The Ecstatic]
#24014845 - 01/16/17 02:03 PM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
I agree completely, but thats why I think putting the means of production into the hands of the citizens is the best way to curtail the wealthy's influence. We bend for them now because, in the current system, we simply can't do without them. Now, at the same time, doing nothing to stop the wealthy's ownership of our political system, it won't make it bit of difference if the state controls the means of production.
When you say "means of production into the hands of the citizens" I'm not sure I understand you exactly and don't want to jump to conclusions but that sounds a lot like full blown socialism and I don't think that's the answer. Here are three possible ideas that might help.
1) I LOVE Germany's system with publicly traded companies where LABOR gets an equal number of board seats as Shareholders do. It gives them a real voice in the boardroom as they elect those board members the same way Shareholders elect theirs. GREAT idea and it works for them.
2) Create a 2-option corporate tax system. The corporation CHOOSES which tax plan it wants. The first is similar to what we have now with whatever rate Congress plugs in. The second is a corporate tax rate of 10% if, and ONLY IF, they voluntarily shrink the pay gap to no more than 35X from top to bottom meaning the highest paid employee would make no more than 35 times what the lowest paid employee would. It would have to be certified by a CPA and there would be a formula to include outsourcing. Then, every corporation would have to list, on its website and product packaging which tax plan they used.
This would put shareholders on the side of pushing for a more pay equality because it would give them lower taxes!
I also LOVE Switzerland's direct democracy system which is, IMHO, the most refined system of democracy on the planet right now. Granted, they have a much more educated populace with a lot less social problems and racial divide, but there's a lot there we could use to improve our system.
Finally, abolish completely the electoral college an come up with a much better and transparent system for selecting candidates and break the stranglehold the two parties now have on our elections system.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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qman
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca] 1
#24014891 - 01/16/17 02:21 PM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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Here's one idea I had- let the corporations and government do whatever they want, manipulate currencies, ship jobs out of the US, bring in more legal and illegal workers, no minimum wage, ect.
But here's the deal, every US citizen receives a royalty check every week from the profits on the system the greedy wanted in the first place.
So the system is now working for the citizens instead of the citizens working for the system.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: qman]
#24014906 - 01/16/17 02:29 PM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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^ sounds like socialism, but with an intact imperial mindset.
I think America would seriously go for that lol
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KauaiOrca
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: qman]
#24014981 - 01/16/17 03:01 PM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
qman said: Here's one idea I had- let the corporations and government do whatever they want, manipulate currencies, ship jobs out of the US, bring in more legal and illegal workers, no minimum wage, ect.
But here's the deal, every US citizen receives a royalty check every week from the profits on the system the greedy wanted in the first place.
So the system is now working for the citizens instead of the citizens working for the system.
Interesting. How in the world you would know what the profits are each week on the system is a mystery. But in theory, it's very clever.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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ballsalsa
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
#24015072 - 01/16/17 03:33 PM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
I think the answer, ultimately, is a much better system for screening and identifying better leaders before the election happens.
Seriously, the screening and testing process for a burger flipper at Mickey D's is more rigorous than what's needed to run for Congress.
I think candidates (Presidents, Senators, House Representatives and Governors) should all have to complete a thorough psychological and mental fitness test, a health test and answer, under oath a series of questions with teethy jail time if they are caught lying.
sounds good on paper, but this seems like a system that could be easily gamed by people in positions to write the screening parameters. It seems to me, it would be hard to backtrack once implemented since the people elected to repeal such a policy would themselves have to have passed the screening process.
All systems can be and ARE gamed including what we have now. To make it work, we'd need a non-partisan oversite group to keep political meddling out of it and a lot of sunlight and transparency.
Our current system is rewarding the biggest most outrageous liars. We just had an election that put two of the biggest liars with the longest track records of dishonesty into the top spots. That's gotta change.
I agree with the principle. I take issue with the underlined because i do not believe that such a group does or will exist; The implementation of such a policy would be inherently political by nature. Transparency helps, but requires an electorate that cares about such things. As American culture becomes more and more Kardashian-based, i see the prospects of such an electorate emerging as somewhat slim.
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KauaiOrca
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: ballsalsa]
#24015091 - 01/16/17 03:37 PM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
I agree with the principle. I take issue with the underlined because i do not believe that such a group does or will exist; The implementation of such a policy would be inherently political by nature. Transparency helps, but requires an electorate that cares about such things. As American culture becomes more and more Kardashian-based, i see the prospects of such an electorate emerging as somewhat slim.
The truth is most people are not that partisan. It's just that partisans and the extremists get all the news because they create stories and attention. 40% of all voters in this country are independents. Independents don't have much of a voice because of the 2-party system.
It would be EASY to find a large group of reasonable and independently non-partisan people to man an independent oversite system but the 2 parties DON'T want this.
The illusion of an ultra divided country is driven because that is where the story and narrative is ... you can't get anyone to pay attention to your story if it isn't controversial. Stories often have little to do with truth, however.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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ballsalsa
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
#24015249 - 01/16/17 04:34 PM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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To clarify, I don't think that human nature allows for the least motivated (apolitical people) to be put in charge of everything, regardless of how many political parties exist in a given system. partisanship is probably the wrong term to describe what i mean since it implies allegiance to a party per se, while adherence to self-interest is really all that is required for a political motivation.
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KauaiOrca
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: ballsalsa]
#24015423 - 01/16/17 05:59 PM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: To clarify, I don't think that human nature allows for the least motivated (apolitical people) to be put in charge of everything, regardless of how many political parties exist in a given system. partisanship is probably the wrong term to describe what i mean since it implies allegiance to a party per se, while adherence to self-interest is really all that is required for a political motivation.
Clearly, the temptation to exploit those around us for personal gain is significant and the magnet is strong. And we know that any people on a neutral committee that makes big decisions will be tempted with huge bribes and offers from the same big boys that rig the system today. However, I think some people are, by nature, less vulnerable to this and more resistant than others. I think that politicians, by their nature and the campaigning process and especially fund raising, are the worst to be making decisions of this nature.
Wealth is corrupting, to be sure. Some are more attracted to it than others, however.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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hostileuniverse
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: The Ecstatic]
#24016116 - 01/16/17 10:38 PM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: the solution is more free market capitalism 
That is correct, there is a reason the countries with the most freedom are also the wealthiest
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Le_Canard
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
#24016208 - 01/16/17 11:17 PM (7 years, 14 days ago) |
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Yeah, they had the right idea. I'd be all for that.
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KauaiOrca
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: hostileuniverse] 1
#24016543 - 01/17/17 04:42 AM (7 years, 13 days ago) |
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hostileuniverse said:
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The Ecstatic said: the solution is more free market capitalism 
That is correct, there is a reason the countries with the most freedom are also the wealthiest
Except, of course, the examples of Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, UAE and Bahrain ... all countries with highly restricted freedoms and great wealth brought on by high ratio of valuable natural resources.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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specialpeopleclub


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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
#24016984 - 01/17/17 10:19 AM (7 years, 13 days ago) |
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Those countries couldn't have accessed tir resources of we didn't allow them the technology.
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Luddite
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: specialpeopleclub] 1
#24017779 - 01/17/17 03:54 PM (7 years, 13 days ago) |
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SirTripAlot
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
#24017909 - 01/17/17 04:50 PM (7 years, 13 days ago) |
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I appreciate your historic reference... I always thought it was against the monarchy/government of England( like the Coercive Acts) rather then specifically the Bank of England....you have a link for this?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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KauaiOrca
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: SirTripAlot]
#24017963 - 01/17/17 05:16 PM (7 years, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: I appreciate your historic reference... I always thought it was against the monarchy/government of England( like the Coercive Acts) rather then specifically the Bank of England....you have a link for this?
Adams wrote a lot and at some length about what was happening in the colonies. I'm not quite sure where that exact reference is ...
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: DividedQuantum] 1
#24019724 - 01/18/17 11:35 AM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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DividedQuantum said: Yeah. There are about 1,800 billionaires in the world, and about 3.5 billion people below the U.N. poverty line. More than 80% of the world live in countries in which the income differential is widening. I don't know that there is any solution to this egregiousness (there probably isn't), but shit's fucked.
There is a solution. The solution is solidarity among working people. Division seems to be winning the day though, and we are easily conquered.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Bigbadwooof] 1
#24019751 - 01/18/17 11:45 AM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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Bigbadwooof said: There is a solution. The solution is solidarity among working people. Division seems to be winning the day though, and we are easily conquered.
^^^THIS^^^
But there are a surprising number of people here fighting for the RICH to keep everything that the working people earn.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#24019794 - 01/18/17 12:03 PM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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Bigbadwooof said: There is a solution. The solution is solidarity among working people. Division seems to be winning the day though, and we are easily conquered.
^^^THIS^^^
But there are a surprising number of people here fighting for the RICH to keep everything that the working people earn.
It's because they are dumb cunts. I hope I get banned again.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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SirTripAlot
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#24020400 - 01/18/17 03:29 PM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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Bigbadwooof said: There is a solution. The solution is solidarity among working people. Division seems to be winning the day though, and we are easily conquered.
^^^THIS^^^
But there are a surprising number of people here fighting for the RICH to keep everything that the working people earn.
In my opinion.....the class warfare that both side participates in ( along with the alphabet channels) makes this impossible.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: SirTripAlot]
#24020670 - 01/18/17 04:58 PM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: there are a surprising number of people here fighting for the RICH to keep everything that the working people earn.
In my opinion.....the class warfare that both side participates in ( along with the alphabet channels) makes this impossible.
I absolutely disagree. If the middle class is ever to be restored to where it used to be, we need to restore the policies we used to have when there was a strong middle class:
- Restore the minimum wage to the 1968 level ($10.85/hr in today's dollars) - Restore tax rates back to 1960s levels - Restore unions (and union protections) - Restore affordable public college - Restore overtime protections etc.
The rich will call this "class warfare", which has a very negative connotation, but these are the things that must get done if we are to restore our middle class.
They will use other negative terms like "redistribution of wealth", when it should really be called "restoration of wealth".
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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KauaiOrca
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#24020845 - 01/18/17 06:04 PM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
SirTripAlot said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: there are a surprising number of people here fighting for the RICH to keep everything that the working people earn.
In my opinion.....the class warfare that both side participates in ( along with the alphabet channels) makes this impossible.
I absolutely disagree. If the middle class is ever to be restored to where it used to be, we need to restore the policies we used to have when there was a strong middle class:
- Restore the minimum wage to the 1968 level ($10.85/hr in today's dollars) - Restore tax rates back to 1960s levels - Restore unions (and union protections) - Restore affordable public college - Restore overtime protections etc.
The rich will call this "class warfare", which has a very negative connotation, but these are the things that must get done if we are to restore our middle class.
They will use other negative terms like "redistribution of wealth", when it should really be called "restoration of wealth".
It's important for you to understand that in the post WW2 world, a lot of global manufacturing in Europe and Japan was destroyed. The US, on the other hand, had made huge leaps forward because of the war and we were in a FANTASTIC position with an enormous head start and we had first dibs on a lot of oil fields all over the world because we knew how to get it out.
This created wildly profitable companies with enormous competitive advantages.
by the mid 70's, those competitive advantages were disappearing fast with Japanese cars, Europe really surging and cheap labor all over the planet coming online. We began losing our quality advantage which eroded our pricing advantages and then the new global economy started rooting after Nixon's efforts (Britton Woods) and the factors that enabled the kind of tax rates in the 60's were gone. Our economy was struggling ... interest rates soared to near 20% ...
That's when big changes started happening. You increase taxes to 80%+ TODAY and it would absolutely destroy our economy. Companies and wealthy people would leave like never before.
There are answers, but the 60's are over. We need a tax plan that incentivizes shrinking the pay gap and we need labor to have seats on the board instead of unions. We need better profit sharing plans and incentives and lower taxes.
The 60's are over. They aren't coming back. Global competition is way too intense.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
#24020963 - 01/18/17 06:42 PM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said: It's important for you to understand that in the post WW2 world, a lot of global manufacturing in Europe and Japan was destroyed.
I understand that. That gave us a small spike in exports from 1945-1950:

Yet the middle class continued to grow for the next 30 years before the policies above were destroyed in the 80s.
Quote:
KauaiOrca said: by the mid 70's, those competitive advantages were disappearing fast with Japanese cars, Europe really surging and cheap labor all over the planet coming online.
According to the graph I just posted, exports didn't dip until the 80's. And our GDP never took a hit, so money continued to roll in for US corporations. It just shifted from the working class to the elite.
Quote:
KauaiOrca said: We began losing our quality advantage which eroded our pricing advantages and then the new global economy started rooting after Nixon's efforts (Britton Woods) and the factors that enabled the kind of tax rates in the 60's were gone.
We know for a fact that corporations and the rich are making more than ever today. Why can't we tax them the same as before? 
Quote:
KauaiOrca said: Our economy was struggling ... interest rates soared to near 20% ...
That's when big changes started happening. You increase taxes to 80%+ TODAY and it would absolutely destroy our economy. Companies and wealthy people would leave like never before.
The US taxes its citizens regardless of where they live. And if they want to give up their citizenship they'll have to pay a massive expatriation tax. Why do you think they would they leave today but not in the 60's? 
Quote:
KauaiOrca said: We need a tax plan that incentivizes shrinking the pay gap and we need labor to have seats on the board instead of unions.
Who do you think unions represent if not labor? 
Quote:
KauaiOrca said: We need better profit sharing plans and incentives and lower taxes.
How does lowering taxes on the super rich benefit the middle class?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#24020992 - 01/18/17 06:50 PM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
SirTripAlot said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: there are a surprising number of people here fighting for the RICH to keep everything that the working people earn.
In my opinion.....the class warfare that both side participates in ( along with the alphabet channels) makes this impossible.
I absolutely disagree. If the middle class is ever to be restored to where it used to be, we need to restore the policies we used to have when there was a strong middle class:
- Restore the minimum wage to the 1968 level ($10.85/hr in today's dollars) - Restore tax rates back to 1960s levels - Restore unions (and union protections) - Restore affordable public college - Restore overtime protections etc.
The rich will call this "class warfare", which has a very negative connotation, but these are the things that must get done if we are to restore our middle class.
They will use other negative terms like "redistribution of wealth", when it should really be called "restoration of wealth".
I disagree. I see a very different route. As FDR himself said, the implementation of Keynesian economic principals was the final refuge for a decaying Capitalism, on its way to collapse. If we do not start implementing a Keynesian approach (which we will not be doing), Socialism will win the day. It will either be Socialism, or years of tyrannical right-wing authoritarianism, followed by Socialism (of some unknown flavor), or a drastic decline in population and living standards by way of disease, malnutrition, etc.
If guys like Webster continue to vote for bill gate's bank account, and against Joe six pack, we will all continue to pay more dearly.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#24021219 - 01/18/17 07:59 PM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: If the middle class is ever to be restored to where it used to be, we need to restore the policies we used to have when there was a strong middle class:
- Restore the minimum wage to the 1968 level ($10.85/hr in today's dollars) - Restore tax rates back to 1960s levels - Restore unions (and union protections) - Restore affordable public college - Restore overtime protections etc.
The rich will call this "class warfare", which has a very negative connotation, but these are the things that must get done if we are to restore our middle class.
They will use other negative terms like "redistribution of wealth", when it should really be called "restoration of wealth".
I disagree. I see a very different route. As FDR himself said, the implementation of Keynesian economic principals was the final refuge for a decaying Capitalism, on its way to collapse. If we do not start implementing a Keynesian approach (which we will not be doing), Socialism will win the day. It will either be Socialism, or years of tyrannical right-wing authoritarianism, followed by Socialism (of some unknown flavor), or a drastic decline in population and living standards by way of disease, malnutrition, etc.
I agree with a Keynesian approach, as empirical evidence shows it works. But I'm unclear how anything I said is "a very different route"?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#24021370 - 01/18/17 08:48 PM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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A very different route would be to not implement Keynesian economics, and therefore not save Capitalism. As the economic environment continues to unbalance itself, top-heavy Capitalism will topple over, and people will come to their senses (in theory), and demand Socialism. However, nowadays, since Socialism is off the table for most people, they may just cry for Keynesianism, no matter how bad things get. I don't know.
Keynesianism is one solution to Capitalism. Socialism is it's alternative, I guess that's what I'm trying to say. However, you can't have neither. Leftist politics will have a voice in America, someday. Til then, people like LDS will continue thinking Obama is a lefty lol.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (01/18/17 09:11 PM)
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#24021386 - 01/18/17 08:56 PM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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The way things are going, I think we will either have Keynesianism, or dictatorship. I think if Trump were a more intelligent man, he might be able to pull off a hostile takeover, but I'm not particularly worried about that.
The funny thing about America, is that the ones who would implement an authoritative dictator (conservatives), are the ones who most vocally celebrate their 'constitutional rights'. While they frequently support actions which strip them of those rights, I do believe there is a limit, and I don't believe they will permit things to go too far.
I really do think we will see Keynesianism rise after Donald Trump, but I think it will be too little, too late. What happens after that, I don't know. I'm not a great predictor, like Webster.
My rambling was more entertaining when I was a practicing alcoholic... at least for me..
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#24021512 - 01/18/17 09:52 PM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: A very different route would be to not implement Keynesian economics, and therefore not save Capitalism. As the economic environment continues to unbalance itself, top-heavy Capitalism will topple over, and people will come to their senses (in theory), and demand Socialism.
Capitalism very nearly did just topple over, and Keynesianism saved it. I think with the right balance of Keynesianism and capitalism, it can do just fine like it did in the 50s and 60s. It's just a matter of convincing conservatives to stop demanding the rich get everything, like tax cuts, lower minimum wage, and union busting. I just don't get that.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#24021590 - 01/18/17 10:31 PM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: A very different route would be to not implement Keynesian economics, and therefore not save Capitalism. As the economic environment continues to unbalance itself, top-heavy Capitalism will topple over, and people will come to their senses (in theory), and demand Socialism.
Capitalism very nearly did just topple over, and Keynesianism saved it. I think with the right balance of Keynesianism and capitalism, it can do just fine like it did in the 50s and 60s. It's just a matter of convincing conservatives to stop demanding the rich get everything, like tax cuts, lower minimum wage, and union busting. I just don't get that.
I agree with you. It would be just fine. It might even be great, again, as the Trump guys would say. However, I believe that Keynesianism is a band-aid, not a long-term solution. Safety net programs, banking regulations, worker protection, etc, will erode once more, and this pattern will continue until a new solution is embraced.
It is remarkable how closely history repeats itself. When I read Smedley Butler's book, the thing that blew me away most, was the striking similarities between the situation then, the words used to describe what was going on, and now.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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hostileuniverse
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#24021601 - 01/18/17 10:34 PM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: There is a solution. The solution is solidarity among working people. Division seems to be winning the day though, and we are easily conquered.
^^^THIS^^^
But there are a surprising number of people here fighting for the RICH to keep everything that the working people earn.
It's because they are dumb cunts. I hope I get banned again.
Amazing, I spell someone's name wrong and get banned, you have to literally threaten to kill people before you do, must be nice to be special
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#24021614 - 01/18/17 10:40 PM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: I believe that Keynesianism is a band-aid, not a long-term solution. Safety net programs, banking regulations, worker protection, etc, will erode once more, and this pattern will continue until a new solution is embraced.
They've already eroded. We need them back and we'll be ok again.
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: It is remarkable how closely history repeats itself. When I read Smedley Butler's book, the thing that blew me away most, was the striking similarities between the situation then, the words used to describe what was going on, and now.
History does repeat itself for sure. But I've never read Smedley Butler.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#24021662 - 01/18/17 11:10 PM (7 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: I believe that Keynesianism is a band-aid, not a long-term solution. Safety net programs, banking regulations, worker protection, etc, will erode once more, and this pattern will continue until a new solution is embraced.
They've already eroded. We need them back and we'll be ok again.
I agree with you, Falcon. I would be happy with that situation, which is why I voted for Bernie Sanders. I believe that a better world than a Keynesian Capitalist world is possible though, and I know that if we go that route once again, about 70-80 years from now it will all begin to unravel again.
I'm curious to see what goes on in the years to come though. I feel like we've been on a rollercoaster, and we're just reaching the tippy top, for better, or for worse.
Quote:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: It is remarkable how closely history repeats itself. When I read Smedley Butler's book, the thing that blew me away most, was the striking similarities between the situation then, the words used to describe what was going on, and now.
History does repeat itself for sure. But I've never read Smedley Butler.
It's a short book (~100 pages). Have you heard of it? It's called 'War is a Racket'. Smedley Butler was the most decorated US marine back in the ~40's, I believe. I think that's when he wrote the book.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (01/18/17 11:10 PM)
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KauaiOrca
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Bigbadwooof] 1
#24021956 - 01/19/17 04:40 AM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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Falc:
Without going to the effort of quoting and dissecting your post(s) here are some thoughts:
1) The impact on WW2 on the Global economy and the USA's ability to capitalize on our manufacturing strength in its aftermath was an enormous economic driver for the US through the 50's and into the 60's.
2) The reason so many wealthy people DID NOT leave the US when taxes were high is that the US was a much better place to live. 3rd world, developing nations were simply not that attractive for most and Americans, then even more than now, had an extreme USA-Centric view of the world. Globalism has changed that a lot and there are a lot of very nice places around the world for extreme capitalists to live and thrive that didn't exist in the 60's.
3) Globalism changed things at least as much as any policy changes brought on by Reagan. Global competition, to be specific. You're somehow missing that and it's an enormous factor.
4) There are much better ways to reduce the wealth and income gap(s) than returning personal income tax to 80%+ levels including corporate tax options that reward voluntarily shrinking the pay gap, labor getting corporate board seats, new tax laws on short term trading, corporate taxes on jobs that burden the Taxpayer with providing basic benefits, etc.
5) Enormous technology changes are coming fast including genetic engineering of the Human Species, nano manufacturing and advanced energy production systems. Some BIG wildcards that will change things ore than the internet and smart phones did.
6) Poor parenting that enables poorly educated and disciplined children to grow up continues to be the number one driver of poverty and lack of opportunity. We are living in the era of extreme addiction. That is, IMHO, more than any other factor, what is holding more people back from realizing more of their potential and opportunity.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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The Ecstatic
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
#24022497 - 01/19/17 09:55 AM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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Great post, KO.
Bbw, have you ever read Confessions of an Economic Hitman? Amazing read, its like a true crime autobiography version of Butler's grievances.
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#24022528 - 01/19/17 10:04 AM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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Bigbadwooof said: A very different route would be to not implement Keynesian economics, and therefore not save Capitalism. As the economic environment continues to unbalance itself, top-heavy Capitalism will topple over, and people will come to their senses (in theory), and demand Socialism.
Capitalism very nearly did just topple over, and Keynesianism saved it. I think with the right balance of Keynesianism and capitalism, it can do just fine like it did in the 50s and 60s. It's just a matter of convincing conservatives to stop demanding the rich get everything, like tax cuts, lower minimum wage, and union busting. I just don't get that.
"just a matter of convincing conservatives to stop demanding the rich get everything"
Really, just convince the conservatives? Where are the liberals complaining when it comes to Bill Clinton and Obama? Not much to be said.
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Prem. Kissoff
Tourist with a typewriter

Registered: 11/09/16
Posts: 259
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#24022538 - 01/19/17 10:08 AM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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Some people are smarter and work harder than others, theyre all self made men, no help from others, if they had been born in the jungles of the Congo they still would have risen to the top of the world!
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KauaiOrca
Waterman

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: The Ecstatic]
#24022549 - 01/19/17 10:10 AM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Great post, KO.
Bbw, have you ever read Confessions of an Economic Hitman? Amazing read, its like a true crime autobiography version of Butler's grievances.
I did and read it right when it came out and credit it as one of the 3-4 books I've read in my life responsible for my own personal awakening.
That book was as devastating to my belief system as finding out there was no Santa Claus. I'm a huge Perkins fan.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: qman] 2
#24022552 - 01/19/17 10:12 AM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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Why do you always deflect to the neoliberals?
Their base (people like me and fal) damn near derailed the Clinton train and forced in a real progressive. We never liked her, stomached Obama, and despised Bill. Where are the true conservatives? Are there any?
"Get your govt hands off my healthcare, but also regulate vaginas."
"As an evangelical, god is important to me, so ill be voting for the abrasive divorcee liberal billionaire who doesnt even belong to a church."
Just like the lefties who fell behind Hillary in the primaries, because they thought she was the only chance in the general, righties are abdicating their values for a chance to snub the other party. Why even be partisan at that point? Theres no moral high ground to be had, just a cheap "haha you lost." Now what? Trump is kicking his own voters off their healthcare plans.
I digress. Where are the true conservatives? The people who advocate for a small, accountable government who works within the powers enumerated by the Constitution? Are they all libertarians now?
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The Ecstatic
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
#24022555 - 01/19/17 10:13 AM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
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The Ecstatic said: Great post, KO.
Bbw, have you ever read Confessions of an Economic Hitman? Amazing read, its like a true crime autobiography version of Butler's grievances.
I did and read it right when it came out and credit it as one of the 3-4 books I've read in my life responsible for my own personal awakening.
That book was as devastating to my belief system as finding out there was no Santa Claus. I'm a huge Perkins fan.
Definitely one of my favorite books. Not since reading 1984 has a story really made me sit down and sigh in despair. It really confirms all your worst fears about imperialism in modern times.
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KauaiOrca
Waterman

Registered: 08/12/08
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: The Ecstatic]
#24022581 - 01/19/17 10:25 AM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Definitely one of my favorite books. Not since reading 1984 has a story really made me sit down and sigh in despair. It really confirms all your worst fears about imperialism in modern times.
I read it right after I had sold a company I'd started 12 years earlier and made enough money to take a year off in Kauai ... I was a happy capitalist at the time and that book really tore off the bandaid of how things really work ... started me on a journey of discovery beneath the PR the govt whitewashed it all with.
Its not a happy story underneath, but it is revealing about who we really are as a species and how we haven't changed that much since Egypt and Rome ...
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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qman
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: The Ecstatic]
#24022585 - 01/19/17 10:27 AM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Why do you always deflect to the neoliberals?
Their base (people like me and fal) damn near derailed the Clinton train and forced in a real progressive. We never liked her, stomached Obama, and despised Bill. Where are the true conservatives? Are there any?
"Get your govt hands off my healthcare, but also regulate vaginas."
"As an evangelical, god is important to me, so ill be voting for the abrasive divorcee liberal billionaire who doesnt even belong to a church."
Just like the lefties who fell behind Hillary in the primaries, because they thought she was the only chance in the general, righties are abdicating their values for a chance to snub the other party. Why even be partisan at that point? Theres no moral high ground to be had, just a cheap "haha you lost." Now what? Trump is kicking his own voters off their healthcare plans.
I digress. Where are the true conservatives? The people who advocate for a small, accountable government who works within the powers enumerated by the Constitution? Are they all libertarians now?
"Where are the true conservatives?"
I ask myself that question all the time, they're missing in action as much if not more than the "true liberals".
With that being said, I think the Brexit and Trump results did bring in some much needed nationalism which does please the true conservatives.
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KauaiOrca
Waterman

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: qman]
#24022591 - 01/19/17 10:29 AM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Why do you always deflect to the neoliberals?
Their base (people like me and fal) damn near derailed the Clinton train and forced in a real progressive. We never liked her, stomached Obama, and despised Bill. Where are the true conservatives? Are there any?
"Get your govt hands off my healthcare, but also regulate vaginas."
"As an evangelical, god is important to me, so ill be voting for the abrasive divorcee liberal billionaire who doesnt even belong to a church."
Just like the lefties who fell behind Hillary in the primaries, because they thought she was the only chance in the general, righties are abdicating their values for a chance to snub the other party. Why even be partisan at that point? Theres no moral high ground to be had, just a cheap "haha you lost." Now what? Trump is kicking his own voters off their healthcare plans.
I digress. Where are the true conservatives? The people who advocate for a small, accountable government who works within the powers enumerated by the Constitution? Are they all libertarians now?
"Where are the true conservatives?"
I ask myself that question all the time, they're missing in action as much if not more than the "true liberals".
With that being said, I think the Brexit and Trump results did bring in some much needed nationalism which does please the true conservatives.
The melding of social conservatives with fiscal conservatives and war hawks screwed up the understanding of what Conservative even means. How the heck you can be for small government but a huge military ad enormous war against drugs and abortion is just hard to justify if you sit and think about it.
I think Libertarians are the truest conservatives of all.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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qman
Stranger

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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
#24022606 - 01/19/17 10:35 AM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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It's funny that during this political campaign these "conservative" talking heads were trying to spew to Republicans what true conservatism was in the first place, they were ALL full of shit.
William Buckley would be turning over in his grave.
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KauaiOrca
Waterman

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: qman]
#24022610 - 01/19/17 10:38 AM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
qman said: It's funny that during this political campaign these "conservative" talking heads were trying to spew to Republicans what true conservatism was in the first place, they were ALL full of shit.
William Buckley would be turning over in his grave.
Buckley was closer to a Libertarian than any traditional GOP conservative I've seen in my lifetime.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
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Last seen: 8 hours, 2 minutes
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: qman]
#24022759 - 01/19/17 11:55 AM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Why do you always deflect to the neoliberals?
Their base (people like me and fal) damn near derailed the Clinton train and forced in a real progressive. We never liked her, stomached Obama, and despised Bill. Where are the true conservatives? Are there any?
"Get your govt hands off my healthcare, but also regulate vaginas."
"As an evangelical, god is important to me, so ill be voting for the abrasive divorcee liberal billionaire who doesnt even belong to a church."
Just like the lefties who fell behind Hillary in the primaries, because they thought she was the only chance in the general, righties are abdicating their values for a chance to snub the other party. Why even be partisan at that point? Theres no moral high ground to be had, just a cheap "haha you lost." Now what? Trump is kicking his own voters off their healthcare plans.
I digress. Where are the true conservatives? The people who advocate for a small, accountable government who works within the powers enumerated by the Constitution? Are they all libertarians now?
"Where are the true conservatives?"
I ask myself that question all the time, they're missing in action as much if not more than the "true liberals".
With that being said, I think the Brexit and Trump results did bring in some much needed nationalism which does please the true conservatives.
Thats true.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca] 1
#24022951 - 01/19/17 01:36 PM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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KauaiOrca said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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KauaiOrca said: It's important for you to understand that in the post WW2 world, a lot of global manufacturing in Europe and Japan was destroyed.
I understand that. That gave us a small spike in exports from 1945-1950:

Yet the middle class continued to grow for the next 30 years before the policies above were destroyed in the 80s.
1) The impact on WW2 on the Global economy and the USA's ability to capitalize on our manufacturing strength in its aftermath was an enormous economic driver for the US through the 50's and into the 60's.
I just showed a graph proving that US exports only spiked from 1945 to 1950. Please tell us how "the USA's ability to capitalize on our manufacturing strength in its aftermath was an enormous economic driver" if it didn't drive exports any higher?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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KauaiOrca said: by the mid 70's, those competitive advantages were disappearing fast with Japanese cars, Europe really surging and cheap labor all over the planet coming online.
According to the graph I just posted, exports didn't dip until the 80's. And our GDP never took a hit, so money continued to roll in for US corporations. It just shifted from the working class to the elite.
(no response)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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KauaiOrca said: We began losing our quality advantage which eroded our pricing advantages and then the new global economy started rooting after Nixon's efforts (Britton Woods) and the factors that enabled the kind of tax rates in the 60's were gone.
We know for a fact that corporations and the rich are making more than ever today. Why can't we tax them the same as before? 
(no response)
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KauaiOrca said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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KauaiOrca said: Our economy was struggling ... interest rates soared to near 20% ...
That's when big changes started happening. You increase taxes to 80% TODAY and it would absolutely destroy our economy. Companies and wealthy people would leave like never before.
The US taxes its citizens regardless of where they live. And if they want to give up their citizenship they'll have to pay a massive expatriation tax. Why do you think they would they leave today but not in the 60's?
2) The reason so many wealthy people DID NOT leave the US when taxes were high is that the US was a much better place to live. 3rd world, developing nations were simply not that attractive for most and Americans, then even more than now, had an extreme USA-Centric view of the world. Globalism has changed that a lot and there are a lot of very nice places around the world for extreme capitalists to live and thrive that didn't exist in the 60's.
You completely ignored the fact that citizens who leave still have to pay taxes. You also ignored the fact that people who renounce their citizenships have to pay a massive expatriation tax. I'll address your point about other countries being more developed today. That may or may not make it more attractive to live there. I know the less developed a country is, the more they treat me like a king, so if I were move I'd prefer to move where my dollar gets me the most. Again, the money that I'd be trying to save would be taken from me with the expatriation tax anyway, so it might not be worth moving in the first place.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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KauaiOrca said: We need a tax plan that incentivizes shrinking the pay gap and we need labor to have seats on the board instead of unions.
Who do you think unions represent if not labor? 
(no response)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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KauaiOrca said: We need better profit sharing plans and incentives and lower taxes.
How does lowering taxes on the super rich benefit the middle class? 
(no response)
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KauaiOrca said: 3) Globalism changed things at least as much as any policy changes brought on by Reagan. Global competition, to be specific. You're somehow missing that and it's an enormous factor.
No, I'm not missing that. I know the world is a more global place. You're failing to explain why that contradicts any my arguments. I've previously argued that we need to do things to protect American jobs, like tariffs and/or trade regulations.
Quote:
KauaiOrca said: 4) There are much better ways to reduce the wealth and income gap(s) than returning personal income tax to 80% levels including corporate tax options that reward voluntarily shrinking the pay gap, labor getting corporate board seats, new tax laws on short term trading, corporate taxes on jobs that burden the Taxpayer with providing basic benefits, etc.
Those are all fine too. But why would anyone voluntarily shrink the pay gap unless it's to offset a crazy high tax rate like they had in the 50's and 60's? Corporations aren't going to shrink the pay gap just because they're nice guys.
Quote:
KauaiOrca said: 5) Enormous technology changes are coming fast including genetic engineering of the Human Species, nano manufacturing and advanced energy production systems. Some BIG wildcards that will change things more than the internet and smart phones did.
I know technology is changing. I live in the Silicon Valley which is the heart of where many of these changes are occurring, and I work for a high tech company that is changing the world. That technology is creating hundreds of thousands of good paying jobs. What's your point about new technologies?
Quote:
KauaiOrca said: 6) Poor parenting that enables poorly educated and disciplined children to grow up continues to be the number one driver of poverty and lack of opportunity. We are living in the era of extreme addiction. That is, IMHO, more than any other factor, what is holding more people back from realizing more of their potential and opportunity.
You sound just like a billionaire trying to convince the country that the reason they're not doing as well as they used to isn't because the rich changed the rules in their favor (which they clearly have as explained above), but because people aren't producing enough. I can present evidence showing you're incorrect:
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Prem. Kissoff]
#24022958 - 01/19/17 01:39 PM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
Prem. Kissoff said: Some people are smarter and work harder than others, theyre all self made men, no help from others, if they had been born in the jungles of the Congo they still would have risen to the top of the world!
Empirical evidence proves you wrong. People born to rich families are FAR more successful.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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KauaiOrca
Waterman

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#24023016 - 01/19/17 02:00 PM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
You sound just like a billionaire trying to convince the country that the reason they're not doing as well as they used to isn't because the rich changed the rules in their favor (which they clearly have as explained above), but because people aren't producing enough. I can present evidence showing you're incorrect:

Do you truly believe that one little chart you showed tells the entire story of global manufacturing in the aftermath of Japan and Europe being destroyed in WW2? Seriously? That chart tells the story of the quality revolution in Japan and their auto industry surging in the late 70's? Of globalism, out-sourcing and the computer age? Really?
This is a subject that has been studied extensively. WW2 transformed America ... brought women into the workforce, sparked the baby boomer generation, dramatically improved our manufacturing capabilities ... enabled us to become a global super power ...
And you've got a little export graph you're hanging your hat on? Come on, man.
I'm not for the billionaire class at all and started this thread because of my concern about the wealth gap. I've put up a lot of serious ideas on how to fix it. I'm not defending Trump or any of the ultra wealth and think it's a very serious problem.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
#24023066 - 01/19/17 02:19 PM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-01-19/trump-will-act-on-nafta-tpp-very-shortly-spokesman-says
Lets see what Trump wants to do with NAFTA.
http://www.plata.com.mx/Mplata/articulos/articlesFilt.asp?fiidarticulo=304
Here's a piece by Hugo Salinas Price on the declining international reserves and the ramifications if Trump gets his way with his trade deals. Opinions?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca] 1
#24023093 - 01/19/17 02:29 PM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Do you truly believe that one little chart you showed tells the entire story of global manufacturing in the aftermath of Japan and Europe being destroyed in WW2? Seriously? That chart tells the story of the quality revolution in Japan and their auto industry surging in the late 70's? Of globalism, out-sourcing and the computer age? Really?
That graph shows nothing more than the story of US imports and exports. Now I'll ask again:
HOW DO ANY OF YOUR OTHER POINTS MATTER IF THEY DIDN"T INCREASE US EXPORTS BEYOND 1950?
Quote:
KauaiOrca said: This is a subject that has been studied extensively. WW2 transformed America ... brought women into the workforce, sparked the baby boomer generation, dramatically improved our manufacturing capabilities ... enabled us to become a global super power ...
And you've got a little export graph you're hanging your hat on? Come on, man.
I'm not disagreeing with anything you just said. WWII brought women into the workforce, improved manufacturing capabilities, and enabled us to become a superpower. Did women leave the workforce in the 80's? Did we lose our ability to manufacture in the 80s? Did we lose our superpower status in the 80s? If not, then what relevance do any of those points have on what happened in the 80's to increase income inequality?
What happened in the 1980's was serious trickle down economics, the purpose of which was to increase the wealth of the rich (with the false promise that in doing so that wealth would 'trickle down' to everyone else).
I'm saying we need to reverse trickle down, because we still have women in the workforce, we still have manufacturing capability, and we still are a superpower.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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KauaiOrca
Waterman

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#24023371 - 01/19/17 04:18 PM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
HOW DO ANY OF YOUR OTHER POINTS MATTER IF THEY DIDN"T INCREASE US EXPORTS BEYOND 1950?
it's a chart we'd have to look at in relation to many factors, obviously. Which import / export sectors were growing and declining. What was actual GDP growth itself in the years you're referring to.
My point is simple and remains the same, the advantages we gained in the aftermath of WW2 gave America enormous economic benefits and, of course our demographic structural elements had a lot to do with what groups can pay what tax rates and how that impact the golden goose.
Reaganomics was conceived when Interest rates were up near 20% ... severe inflation ... an economy that seemed stuck and an explosion of competition along with the early stages of what we now think of as globalization. After having read Reagan's diaries I definitely do NOT think he thought of his lower tax policies as designed to enrich the rich more, even if we, today, do think that was one of the outcomes.
I think the real reasons for global, not just US, super wealth has to do with lending and trading practices that evolved as the new global economy emerged after unpegging to the gold standard and other measure, but in particular, moving off of the Glass Steagall Act and our new trade policies, often designed to give us more control of our energy imports.
The US economic woes were hidden in the 90's and first half of the 00's because of Americans ability to access new mega sources of credit through home equity lending that fueled huge spending to buy, fix up homes and re-finance debt that was great as long as real estate prices were climbing. The 08/09.
But as both sides will scream from the mountains, perceived prosperity and wages grew under Reagan and Clinton with those severely lowered tax policies.
It's more complicated, I believe, than you are projecting and yes, I get that you want to blame it all on Reagan and trickle down. That's just not the case. The middle class has gotten squeezed more because of globalism and competition for lower prices along with a global share ownership class that brutally punishes corporate ownership if it doesn't return extreme numbers in dividends and stock valuations ... There is an ultra imbalance right now between the value of capital and labor and Reaganomics has virtually nothing to do with it.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
#24023411 - 01/19/17 04:36 PM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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KauaiOrca said: Falc:
Without going to the effort of quoting and dissecting your post(s) here are some thoughts:
1) The impact on WW2 on the Global economy and the USA's ability to capitalize on our manufacturing strength in its aftermath was an enormous economic driver for the US through the 50's and into the 60's.
2) The reason so many wealthy people DID NOT leave the US when taxes were high is that the US was a much better place to live. 3rd world, developing nations were simply not that attractive for most and Americans, then even more than now, had an extreme USA-Centric view of the world. Globalism has changed that a lot and there are a lot of very nice places around the world for extreme capitalists to live and thrive that didn't exist in the 60's.
3) Globalism changed things at least as much as any policy changes brought on by Reagan. Global competition, to be specific. You're somehow missing that and it's an enormous factor.
4) There are much better ways to reduce the wealth and income gap(s) than returning personal income tax to 80%+ levels including corporate tax options that reward voluntarily shrinking the pay gap, labor getting corporate board seats, new tax laws on short term trading, corporate taxes on jobs that burden the Taxpayer with providing basic benefits, etc.
5) Enormous technology changes are coming fast including genetic engineering of the Human Species, nano manufacturing and advanced energy production systems. Some BIG wildcards that will change things ore than the internet and smart phones did.
6) Poor parenting that enables poorly educated and disciplined children to grow up continues to be the number one driver of poverty and lack of opportunity. We are living in the era of extreme addiction. That is, IMHO, more than any other factor, what is holding more people back from realizing more of their potential and opportunity.
I don't think your post was in response to me, was it? Anyway, I like your post, and would say I generally agree with it. Especially point #6. I think shitty parenting and poor education has also lead to half the posters in the political forum being half-wits. I don't really want to see Keynesianism, I want to see a workers revolution. Government policy that democratizes the workplace, or encourages the creation of worker cooperatives. Our ideas about how the workplace ought to function must evolve.
I would ask for that above anything else.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (01/19/17 04:58 PM)
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
#24023449 - 01/19/17 04:54 PM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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KauaiOrca said: It's more complicated, I believe, than you are projecting and yes, I get that you want to blame it all on Reagan and trickle down. That's just not the case. The middle class has gotten squeezed more because of globalism and competition for lower prices along with a global share ownership class that brutally punishes corporate ownership if it doesn't return extreme numbers in dividends and stock valuations ... There is an ultra imbalance right now between the value of capital and labor and Reaganomics has virtually nothing to do with it.
A case can certainly be made that Reagan's union busting efforts were a significant contributor to the devaluation of labor. I think Clinton is largely responsible for many of our economic woes today. I don't think Falcon is just trying to simply, or exclusively 'blame Reagan', or 'Reaganomics', either. He understands that Clinton, GWB, and Obama have all played their part, along with globalization.
As sad as it is for me to say, Trump may be the first president in a long time to throw a wrench in the machine that is destroying the American middle class. At least he is adamantly against unfettered trade.
If Trump truly does lower Corporate taxes to 15%, and increases tariffs/stifles free trade, your points will be put to the test. We will have Reagan style tax policy, and simultaneously slow down the impact of globalization.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (01/19/17 05:01 PM)
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KauaiOrca
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#24023513 - 01/19/17 05:27 PM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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Bigbadwooof said:
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KauaiOrca said: It's more complicated, I believe, than you are projecting and yes, I get that you want to blame it all on Reagan and trickle down. That's just not the case. The middle class has gotten squeezed more because of globalism and competition for lower prices along with a global share ownership class that brutally punishes corporate ownership if it doesn't return extreme numbers in dividends and stock valuations ... There is an ultra imbalance right now between the value of capital and labor and Reaganomics has virtually nothing to do with it.
A case can certainly be made that Reagan's union busting efforts were a significant contributor to the devaluation of labor. I think Clinton is largely responsible for many of our economic woes today. I don't think Falcon is just trying to simply, or exclusively 'blame Reagan', or 'Reaganomics', either. He understands that Clinton, GWB, and Obama have all played their part, along with globalization.
As sad as it is for me to say, Trump may be the first president in a long time to throw a wrench in the machine that is destroying the American middle class. At least he is adamantly against unfettered trade.
If Trump truly does lower Corporate taxes to 15%, and increases tariffs/stifles free trade, your points will be put to the test. We will have Reagan style tax policy, and simultaneously slow down the impact of globalization.
Hi BBW ... How's 2017 so far? Any luck with those spores?
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
#24023616 - 01/19/17 06:01 PM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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KauaiOrca said: Hi BBW ... How's 2017 so far? Any luck with those spores?
Honestly, I haven't started them yet. I have a bunch of edibles coming from the works on Saturday. I'm going to start at least 10 different species of mushrooms, hopefully this weekend. I intend to start those SA's also!!! Very excited! I have 500 sterile petri dishes on their way right now!
This year is gonna be epic! 
How have you been buddy? Any new pursuits in mushroom cultivation? By the way, if I remember correctly, I think you said you were interested in some medicinal species? I think I'll have something for ya tomorrow or the next day, if you would like.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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KauaiOrca
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#24023645 - 01/19/17 06:07 PM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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Bigbadwooof said:
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KauaiOrca said: Hi BBW ... How's 2017 so far? Any luck with those spores?
Honestly, I haven't started them yet. I have a bunch of edibles coming from the works on Saturday. I'm going to start at least 10 different species of mushrooms, hopefully this weekend. I intend to start those SA's also!!! Very excited! I have 500 sterile petri dishes on their way right now!
This year is gonna be epic! 
How have you been buddy? Any new pursuits in mushroom cultivation? By the way, if I remember correctly, I think you said you were interested in some medicinal species? I think I'll have something for ya tomorrow or the next day, if you would like.
That would be FANTASTIC ... I think you told me Reishi's are easy and what other medicinals do you think are within my skill range?
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
#24023696 - 01/19/17 06:21 PM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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KauaiOrca said: That would be FANTASTIC ... I think you told me Reishi's are easy and what other medicinals do you think are within my skill range?
You could do cordyceps on sorghum. You don't fruit it, just let it consolidate for an extended period of time, and then extract from the sorghum. There's a way to do it, I can help you find it, if you are interested.
You could do black poplar/piopino mushrooms. I have an LC of that in my culture fridge. Don't know about it's medicinal benefits, you may want to consult pubmed. What are you interested in? I'm sure you could figure out how to do anything you want. You should start working on building a GH setup!
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca] 1
#24023751 - 01/19/17 06:34 PM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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KauaiOrca said: My point is simple and remains the same, the advantages we gained in the aftermath of WW2 gave America enormous economic benefits
WHAT ECONOMIC BENEFITS???
I get all the points you brought up about WWII, but I don't get how any of them provided economic benefit.
How did Europe and Japan being destroyed help us economically if our net exports didn't go up?
How did the US becoming a world superpower help us economically if our net exports didn't go up?
How did women entering the workforce help us economically?
I'm agreeing with all your points, except you're not able to explain how any of these points helped us economically.
The obvious reasons we did so well after WWII are: -We forced companies to pay people more (minimum wage). -We ensured companies share profits fairly with workers (pro union policies) -other New Deal Policies
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KauaiOrca said: Reaganomics was conceived when Interest rates were up near 20% ... severe inflation ... an economy that seemed stuck and an explosion of competition along with the early stages of what we now think of as globalization.
Please explain how anything Reagan did led to a reduction in inflation (serious question). The reduction in inflation was engineered by Paul Volcker as a result of the Federal Reserve Reform Act of 1977.
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KauaiOrca said: I think the real reasons for global, not just US, super wealth has to do with lending and trading practices that evolved as the new global economy emerged after unpegging to the gold standard and other measure, but in particular, moving off of the Glass Steagall Act and our new trade policies, often designed to give us more control of our energy imports.
And I agree. What does that have to do with the economic benefits of WWII, and why didn't that new corporate wealth get shared with the people in the corporations that earned it?
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KauaiOrca said: The US economic woes were hidden in the 90's and first half of the 00's because of Americans ability to access new mega sources of credit through home equity lending that fueled huge spending to buy, fix up homes and re-finance debt that was great as long as real estate prices were climbing. The 08/09.
But as both sides will scream from the mountains, perceived prosperity and wages grew under Reagan and Clinton with those severely lowered tax policies.
Again, I agree, but what does that have to do with the economic benefits of WWII and the end of shared prosperity in the 80s?
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Bigbadwooof said:
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KauaiOrca said: It's more complicated, I believe, than you are projecting and yes, I get that you want to blame it all on Reagan and trickle down. That's just not the case. The middle class has gotten squeezed more because of globalism and competition for lower prices along with a global share ownership class that brutally punishes corporate ownership if it doesn't return extreme numbers in dividends and stock valuations
I don't think Falcon is just trying to simply, or exclusively 'blame Reagan', or 'Reaganomics', either. He understands that Clinton, GWB, and Obama have all played their part, along with globalization.
Absolutely! They kept Reagan's policies intact, and even took some further (repeal of Glass Steagal).
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#24023781 - 01/19/17 06:46 PM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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Yes, and Clinton was more to blame for 2008 than any other president. Also, Clinton is responsible for NAFTA.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#24023835 - 01/19/17 07:07 PM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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KauaiOrca
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Registered: 08/12/08
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#24024064 - 01/19/17 08:23 PM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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We all agree ... it's been a lot of policies and a number of presidents that have participated in enabling a giant division between the ultra wealth classes and everyone else.
Reagan > GHWB > Clinton > GWB > Obama ... they all pushed globalist, economic and freedom for banks to use unheard amounts of leverage to generate personal wealth out of thin air.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
#24024602 - 01/20/17 12:55 AM (7 years, 11 days ago) |
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KauaiOrca said: We all agree ... it's been a lot of policies and a number of presidents that have participated in enabling a giant division between the ultra wealth classes and everyone else.
Reagan > GHWB > Clinton > GWB > Obama
On this we do agree.
What we disagree on is whether WWII had a significant impact on the wealth of the middle class after 1950. You told me a lot of great things that happened as a result of WWII (which I agree with), but failed to explain how any of those things generated wealth after 1950; particularly wealth for the middle class.
On the other hand, it's clear that higher minimum wages and stronger unions shifted wealth from the rich to the working class from the 40's through the 70's until those policies were reversed around 1980, shifting money back to the upper class. This can be shown with empirical evidence:

While I do agree that globalism plays a role in shrinking incomes, the export import graph below shows globalism didn't begin the 80's, and there wasn't a significant increase in globalism during the 80s to cause the sudden income shift back to the rich that happened during the 80s.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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hostileuniverse
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
#24026648 - 01/20/17 07:54 PM (7 years, 10 days ago) |
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KauaiOrca said:
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qman said: It's funny that during this political campaign these "conservative" talking heads were trying to spew to Republicans what true conservatism was in the first place, they were ALL full of shit.
William Buckley would be turning over in his grave.
Buckley was closer to a Libertarian than any traditional GOP conservative I've seen in my lifetime.
Conservatives are supposed to be, the reason youve never seen it is because republicans have taken. To acting like democrats
If they could stop doing that, we'd be in good shape
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KauaiOrca
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: hostileuniverse]
#24028547 - 01/21/17 04:05 PM (7 years, 9 days ago) |
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hostileuniverse said:
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KauaiOrca said:
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qman said: It's funny that during this political campaign these "conservative" talking heads were trying to spew to Republicans what true conservatism was in the first place, they were ALL full of shit.
William Buckley would be turning over in his grave.
Buckley was closer to a Libertarian than any traditional GOP conservative I've seen in my lifetime.
Conservatives are supposed to be, the reason youve never seen it is because republicans have taken. To acting like democrats
If they could stop doing that, we'd be in good shape
The truth is, it's the "social conservative" element that isn't all that compatible with being what I consider to be a conservative. It's the pro-life, anti gay big government in the bedroom element that just doesn't jive with small government, stay our of my life conservatism that I find appealing.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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