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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #24021219 - 01/18/17 07:59 PM (7 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
If the middle class is ever to be restored to where it used to be, we need to restore the policies we used to have when there was a strong middle class:

- Restore the minimum wage to the 1968 level ($10.85/hr in today's dollars)
- Restore tax rates back to 1960s levels
- Restore unions (and union protections)
- Restore affordable public college
- Restore overtime protections
etc.

The rich will call this "class warfare", which has a very negative connotation, but these are the things that must get done if we are to restore our middle class.

They will use other negative terms like "redistribution of wealth", when it should really be called "restoration of wealth".




I disagree. I see a very different route. As FDR himself said, the implementation of Keynesian economic principals was the final refuge for a decaying Capitalism, on its way to collapse. If we do not start implementing a Keynesian approach (which we will not be doing), Socialism will win the day. It will either be Socialism, or years of tyrannical right-wing authoritarianism, followed by Socialism (of some unknown flavor), or a drastic decline in population and living standards by way of disease, malnutrition, etc.



I agree with a Keynesian approach, as empirical evidence shows it works.  But I'm unclear how anything I said is "a very different route"?  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24021370 - 01/18/17 08:48 PM (7 years, 12 days ago)

A very different route would be to not implement Keynesian economics, and therefore not save Capitalism. As the economic environment continues to unbalance itself, top-heavy Capitalism will topple over, and people will come to their senses (in theory), and demand Socialism. However, nowadays, since Socialism is off the table for most people, they may just cry for Keynesianism, no matter how bad things get. I don't know.

Keynesianism is one solution to Capitalism. Socialism is it's alternative, I guess that's what I'm trying to say. However, you can't have neither. Leftist politics will have a voice in America, someday. Til then, people like LDS will continue thinking Obama is a lefty lol.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (01/18/17 09:11 PM)


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #24021386 - 01/18/17 08:56 PM (7 years, 12 days ago)

The way things are going, I think we will either have Keynesianism, or dictatorship. I think if Trump were a more intelligent man, he might be able to pull off a hostile takeover, but I'm not particularly worried about that.

The funny thing about America, is that the ones who would implement an authoritative dictator (conservatives), are the ones who most vocally celebrate their 'constitutional rights'. While they frequently support actions which strip them of those rights, I do believe there is a limit, and I don't believe they will permit things to go too far.

I really do think we will see Keynesianism rise after Donald Trump, but I think it will be too little, too late. What happens after that, I don't know. I'm not a great predictor, like Webster.


My rambling was more entertaining when I was a practicing alcoholic... at least for me..


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #24021512 - 01/18/17 09:52 PM (7 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
A very different route would be to not implement Keynesian economics, and therefore not save Capitalism. As the economic environment continues to unbalance itself, top-heavy Capitalism will topple over, and people will come to their senses (in theory), and demand Socialism.



Capitalism very nearly did just topple over, and Keynesianism saved it.  I think with the right balance of Keynesianism and capitalism, it can do just fine like it did in the 50s and 60s.  It's just a matter of convincing conservatives to stop demanding the rich get everything, like tax cuts, lower minimum wage, and union busting.  I just don't get that.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24021590 - 01/18/17 10:31 PM (7 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
A very different route would be to not implement Keynesian economics, and therefore not save Capitalism. As the economic environment continues to unbalance itself, top-heavy Capitalism will topple over, and people will come to their senses (in theory), and demand Socialism.



Capitalism very nearly did just topple over, and Keynesianism saved it.  I think with the right balance of Keynesianism and capitalism, it can do just fine like it did in the 50s and 60s.  It's just a matter of convincing conservatives to stop demanding the rich get everything, like tax cuts, lower minimum wage, and union busting.  I just don't get that.




I agree with you. It would be just fine. It might even be great, again, as the Trump guys would say. However, I believe that Keynesianism is a band-aid, not a long-term solution. Safety net programs, banking regulations, worker protection, etc, will erode once more, and this pattern will continue until a new solution is embraced.

It is remarkable how closely history repeats itself. When I read Smedley Butler's book, the thing that blew me away most, was the striking similarities between the situation then, the words used to describe what was going on, and now.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #24021601 - 01/18/17 10:34 PM (7 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
There is a solution. The solution is solidarity among working people. Division seems to be winning the day though, and we are easily conquered.



^^^THIS^^^

But there are a surprising number of people here fighting for the RICH to keep everything that the working people earn.




It's because they are dumb cunts. I hope I get banned again.




Amazing, I spell someone's name wrong and get banned, you have to literally threaten to kill people before you do, must be nice to be special :shrug:


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #24021614 - 01/18/17 10:40 PM (7 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
I believe that Keynesianism is a band-aid, not a long-term solution. Safety net programs, banking regulations, worker protection, etc, will erode once more, and this pattern will continue until a new solution is embraced.



They've already eroded.  We need them back and we'll be ok again. 

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
It is remarkable how closely history repeats itself. When I read Smedley Butler's book, the thing that blew me away most, was the striking similarities between the situation then, the words used to describe what was going on, and now.



History does repeat itself for sure.  But I've never read Smedley Butler.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #24021662 - 01/18/17 11:10 PM (7 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
I believe that Keynesianism is a band-aid, not a long-term solution. Safety net programs, banking regulations, worker protection, etc, will erode once more, and this pattern will continue until a new solution is embraced.



They've already eroded.  We need them back and we'll be ok again.




I agree with you, Falcon. I would be happy with that situation, which is why I voted for Bernie Sanders. I believe that a better world than a Keynesian Capitalist world is possible though, and I know that if we go that route once again, about 70-80 years from now it will all begin to unravel again.

I'm curious to see what goes on in the years to come though. I feel like we've been on a rollercoaster, and we're just reaching the tippy top, for better, or for worse.

Quote:

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
It is remarkable how closely history repeats itself. When I read Smedley Butler's book, the thing that blew me away most, was the striking similarities between the situation then, the words used to describe what was going on, and now.



History does repeat itself for sure.  But I've never read Smedley Butler.




It's a short book (~100 pages). Have you heard of it? It's called 'War is a Racket'. Smedley Butler was the most decorated US marine back in the ~40's, I believe. I think that's when he wrote the book.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (01/18/17 11:10 PM)


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #24021956 - 01/19/17 04:40 AM (7 years, 11 days ago)

Falc:

Without going to the effort of quoting and dissecting your post(s) here are some thoughts:

1) The impact on WW2 on the Global economy and the USA's ability to capitalize on our manufacturing strength in its aftermath was an enormous economic driver for the US through the 50's and into the 60's.

2) The reason so many wealthy people DID NOT leave the US when taxes were high is that the US was a much better place to live.  3rd world, developing nations were simply not that attractive for most and Americans, then even more than now, had an extreme USA-Centric view of the world.  Globalism has changed that a lot and there are a lot of very nice places around the world for extreme capitalists to live and thrive that didn't exist in the 60's.

3) Globalism changed things at least as much as any policy changes brought on by Reagan.  Global competition, to be specific.  You're somehow missing that and it's an enormous factor. 

4) There are much better ways to reduce the wealth and income gap(s) than returning personal income tax to 80%+ levels including corporate tax options that reward voluntarily shrinking the pay gap, labor getting corporate board seats, new tax laws on short term trading, corporate taxes on jobs that burden the Taxpayer with providing basic benefits, etc.

5) Enormous technology changes are coming fast including genetic engineering of the Human Species, nano manufacturing and advanced energy production systems.  Some BIG wildcards that will change things ore than the internet and smart phones did.

6) Poor parenting that enables poorly educated and disciplined children to grow up continues to be the number one driver of poverty and lack of opportunity.  We are living in the era of extreme addiction.  That is, IMHO, more than any other factor, what is holding more people back from realizing more of their potential and opportunity.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #24022497 - 01/19/17 09:55 AM (7 years, 11 days ago)

Great post, KO.


Bbw, have you ever read Confessions of an Economic Hitman? Amazing read, its like a true crime autobiography version of Butler's grievances.


--------------------


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Offlineqman
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24022528 - 01/19/17 10:04 AM (7 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
A very different route would be to not implement Keynesian economics, and therefore not save Capitalism. As the economic environment continues to unbalance itself, top-heavy Capitalism will topple over, and people will come to their senses (in theory), and demand Socialism.



Capitalism very nearly did just topple over, and Keynesianism saved it.  I think with the right balance of Keynesianism and capitalism, it can do just fine like it did in the 50s and 60s.  It's just a matter of convincing conservatives to stop demanding the rich get everything, like tax cuts, lower minimum wage, and union busting.  I just don't get that.




"just a matter of convincing conservatives to stop demanding the rich get everything"

Really, just convince the conservatives?  Where are the liberals complaining when it comes to Bill Clinton and Obama?  Not much to be said.


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InvisiblePrem. Kissoff
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24022538 - 01/19/17 10:08 AM (7 years, 11 days ago)

Some people are smarter and work harder than others, theyre all self made men, no help from others, if they had been born in the jungles of the Congo they still would have risen to the top of the world!


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24022549 - 01/19/17 10:10 AM (7 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Great post, KO.


Bbw, have you ever read Confessions of an Economic Hitman? Amazing read, its like a true crime autobiography version of Butler's grievances.




I did and read it right when it came out and credit it as one of the 3-4 books I've read in my life responsible for my own personal awakening.

That book was as devastating to my belief system as finding out there was no Santa Claus.  I'm a huge Perkins fan.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: qman] * 2
    #24022552 - 01/19/17 10:12 AM (7 years, 11 days ago)

Why do you always deflect to the neoliberals?

Their base (people like me and fal) damn near derailed the Clinton train and forced in a real progressive. We never liked her, stomached Obama, and despised Bill. Where are the true conservatives? Are there any?

"Get your govt hands off my healthcare, but also regulate vaginas."

"As an evangelical, god is important to me, so ill be voting for the abrasive divorcee liberal billionaire who doesnt even belong to a church."


Just like the lefties who fell behind Hillary in the primaries, because they thought she was the only chance in the general, righties are abdicating their values for a chance to snub the other party. Why even be partisan at that point? Theres no moral high ground to be had, just a cheap "haha you lost." Now what? Trump is kicking his own voters off their healthcare plans.

I digress. Where are the true conservatives? The people who advocate for a small, accountable government who works within the powers enumerated by the Constitution? Are they all libertarians now?


--------------------


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #24022555 - 01/19/17 10:13 AM (7 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Great post, KO.


Bbw, have you ever read Confessions of an Economic Hitman? Amazing read, its like a true crime autobiography version of Butler's grievances.




I did and read it right when it came out and credit it as one of the 3-4 books I've read in my life responsible for my own personal awakening.

That book was as devastating to my belief system as finding out there was no Santa Claus.  I'm a huge Perkins fan.




Definitely one of my favorite books. Not since reading 1984 has a story really made me sit down and sigh in despair. It really confirms all your worst fears about imperialism in modern times.


--------------------


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24022581 - 01/19/17 10:25 AM (7 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:

Definitely one of my favorite books. Not since reading 1984 has a story really made me sit down and sigh in despair. It really confirms all your worst fears about imperialism in modern times.




I read it right after I had sold a company I'd started 12 years earlier and made enough money to take a year off in Kauai ... I was a happy capitalist at the time and that book really tore off the bandaid of how things really work ... started me on a journey of discovery beneath the PR the govt whitewashed it all with. 

Its not a happy story underneath, but it is revealing about who we really are as a species and how we haven't changed that much since Egypt and Rome ...


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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Offlineqman
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24022585 - 01/19/17 10:27 AM (7 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Why do you always deflect to the neoliberals?

Their base (people like me and fal) damn near derailed the Clinton train and forced in a real progressive. We never liked her, stomached Obama, and despised Bill. Where are the true conservatives? Are there any?

"Get your govt hands off my healthcare, but also regulate vaginas."

"As an evangelical, god is important to me, so ill be voting for the abrasive divorcee liberal billionaire who doesnt even belong to a church."


Just like the lefties who fell behind Hillary in the primaries, because they thought she was the only chance in the general, righties are abdicating their values for a chance to snub the other party. Why even be partisan at that point? Theres no moral high ground to be had, just a cheap "haha you lost." Now what? Trump is kicking his own voters off their healthcare plans.

I digress. Where are the true conservatives? The people who advocate for a small, accountable government who works within the powers enumerated by the Constitution? Are they all libertarians now?




"Where are the true conservatives?"

I ask myself that question all the time, they're missing in action as much if not more than the "true liberals".

With that being said, I think the Brexit and Trump results did bring in some much needed nationalism which does please the true conservatives.


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: qman]
    #24022591 - 01/19/17 10:29 AM (7 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Why do you always deflect to the neoliberals?

Their base (people like me and fal) damn near derailed the Clinton train and forced in a real progressive. We never liked her, stomached Obama, and despised Bill. Where are the true conservatives? Are there any?

"Get your govt hands off my healthcare, but also regulate vaginas."

"As an evangelical, god is important to me, so ill be voting for the abrasive divorcee liberal billionaire who doesnt even belong to a church."


Just like the lefties who fell behind Hillary in the primaries, because they thought she was the only chance in the general, righties are abdicating their values for a chance to snub the other party. Why even be partisan at that point? Theres no moral high ground to be had, just a cheap "haha you lost." Now what? Trump is kicking his own voters off their healthcare plans.

I digress. Where are the true conservatives? The people who advocate for a small, accountable government who works within the powers enumerated by the Constitution? Are they all libertarians now?




"Where are the true conservatives?"

I ask myself that question all the time, they're missing in action as much if not more than the "true liberals".

With that being said, I think the Brexit and Trump results did bring in some much needed nationalism which does please the true conservatives.




The melding of social conservatives with fiscal conservatives and war hawks screwed up the understanding of what Conservative even means.  How the heck you can be for small government but a huge military ad enormous war against drugs and abortion is just hard to justify if you sit and think about it.

I think Libertarians are the truest conservatives of all.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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Offlineqman
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #24022606 - 01/19/17 10:35 AM (7 years, 11 days ago)

It's funny that during this political campaign these "conservative" talking heads were trying to spew to Republicans what true conservatism was in the first place, they were ALL full of shit.

William Buckley would be turning over in his grave.


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: 8 People now have more wealth than half of the planet [Re: qman]
    #24022610 - 01/19/17 10:38 AM (7 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

qman said:
It's funny that during this political campaign these "conservative" talking heads were trying to spew to Republicans what true conservatism was in the first place, they were ALL full of shit.

William Buckley would be turning over in his grave.




Buckley was closer to a Libertarian than any traditional GOP conservative I've seen in my lifetime.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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