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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Mushroom Cultivation
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sterility
    #10780202 -

Just wondering here but what is the deal with this rigid sterility when there's nothing more filthy than the garden I planted my outdoor beds at?

I'm sure this question has been brought up before....

But I have a jar with no lid, and full of sheep shit and cake chunks and the cake chunks are going just fine, no contamn and distinct rhizomorphic structure coming out of the cake chunks.

There is also a monotub, complete with bugs.  There was an ant farm, a bunch of little red critters, worms and foreign plants like clover and the germinated barley that grew out of my dirt before I tranplanted the outdoor garden into it.  Wouldn't these fauna tend to keep things in balance?  This I intend on finding out.

I won't be letting things fully colonize, and I should be-able to trigger pinning before that, and it turns out that my putting off my monotubs for a while longer works just fine.

I tried using ziplock bags to make dirt but that didn't seem to work out too well so I am just going to destroy a pillow case.  Both those tubs will be all set to go today.

I think maybe it has little to do with contamns (even though they compete with each other as well) and more to do with the fact that humidity is always rediculously high, you need humidity to cycle between saturated and dry in order to control mold development -- this is the same theory that applies to pot and with regards to controlling things such as bud rot.

So what about inside a greenhouse, anybody try treating a bed like an outdoor one inside a greenhouse, or at one of those massive indoor gardens.  Where is the line drawn?  This is not to say that maybe the results might be a little more impressive with the sterile mono's that I'm doing, they probably will, I'm just interested in showing that if you HAVE the right outdoor conditions replicated indoors (lots of FAE, especially from outdoors) that sterility isn't as necessary as people think it is.  My guess is that overwatering would make for a nice mold problem (provided those bugs don't just eat the mold, since I know there's lots of soil bugs that will, and they will probably eat mycellium as well but that's ok)...

It just doesn't make any sense considering there's not a hint of contamination or blueing on any of the unsterile cakes and they've been inside doing their thing for a few days.

Anybody care to take bets on how long it WILL take for them to contamn?  (the minute they do I am relocating them outside).

(and yes I know I'm going to get the usual crowd warning me not to do this but wtf, I know people on here are quite religious about their sterility but the fact of the matter is -- if it works outside then it isn't impossible to get working inside, just more difficult).  In fact I'll post a pic for you guys you tell me if you spot any mold yet and can see the distinct rhizo growth there for the shit jar....lol


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Re: sterility [Re: xtofury]
    #10780389 -

spawn needs to be kept sterile, as its free food for most moulds and bacteria. Theres no mechinism to inhibit or stop the growth of many unwanted organism in the spawn we use. Grains brf will contaminate very easily if not sterilised and kept sterilised. Contaminants will outrun mycelium, sometimes even growing before mycelium has had a chance.

Bulk substrates on the other hand are different. Correctly prepared and pasturised, they dont need to be sterile, or kept in sterile enviroments. You also use enough spawn that mycelium will colinise bulk very quickly, before any contams can get a hold.

Outside in nature is another matter, nature has its way of keeping things in check. Mushrooms will grow quite happily alongside many moulds and bacteria.

Growing indoors, contaminated substrates can still produce mushrooms, the problem is the spreading of spores indoors which can mess up future grows.


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Re: sterility [Re: xtofury]
    #10780409 -

Because outside there is a competition for space and by putting fully colonised spawn out there you have introduced an uneven match. Inside you are making perfect conditions for anything to take off and thrive and there are things that will take over faster than mycelium. So you use sterile technique so that the mycelium is able to get the upper hand before the opposition. This is why you only have to pasteurize bulk subs, you are intentionally giving the mycelium the upper hand in the perfect environment for many nasty beasts.


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This is your new mantra, say it every day when you wake up for good health.

AlexP said: that's a good mantra for week one. The mantra for week two should be: "I will not improvise. I will not improvise. I will not improvise."

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Re: sterility [Re: radiantthought]
    #10780514 -

Yes that's what I was pointing out.  100% optimal 100% of the time.  That isn't what mother nature is doing, is it?  Mother nature has a few extra things to throw into the equation:

1)Sun exposure -- uv light may contribute to a naturally ideal casing layer.  Something lands on the top, it gets zapped by uv more often than not before it can contaminate things.

2)Humidity and Temperature and fae fluctuation -- when things dry, fresh air gets in, when things get wet, the carbon dioxide gets flushed out.  The temperature fluctuations around here usually occur within the range that mycellium still likes and grows at, can the same be said for these molds?

3)Breathing boundaries -- a breathable boundary limits mold growth, it ensures that dry cycles are actually dry cycles, as condensation between mycellium occurs in the presence of things like plastic and glass.

4)Bugs and worms -- the natural populations of bugs, worms, and other critters that work to decompose things will eat away at your mycellium and molds and what not -- this will ensure the dominance of ALREADY dominant mycellium.  Just make nice sizeable chunks and it should be just fine.  These bugs increase aeration to the soil, something which is just not present in sterile grows.

So how about this -- what if I were to take that jar, dump it's contents out, then dump it back into the jar, give it another day, then water again? (also allowing some drying time before dumping back into the jar again).

When do we suppose we'll notice contamination?  I trust my fiancees nose it hasn't been wrong so far.

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Re: sterility [Re: xtofury]
    #10780596 -

here is another pic, I've decided to dump the jar, and let it dry out for an hour, then toss back in to a fresh jar.  The clump of myc that I pulled out was a pretty good size, I broke it up into smaller pieces and will mix randomly throughout (avoiding the top of the jar that is left exposed to straight air.

I'm actually quite impressed with growth, treating things this way doesn't seem to have inhibited it.  It seems the myc prefers to grow more on the bottom of the jar, but still does throughout it.  Enjoy the pic....



note that the orange/yellow is from brf spawn.  those two pieces were one solid clump I split open.  The white fluffy stuff is mycellium, sorry the picture isn't the best in the world, still figuring this camera out -- I can see rhizomorphic growth into the new substrate.

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Re: sterility [Re: xtofury]
    #10782448 -

I just checked my outdoor patches, I have about 7 of them, seems they are all doing good with myc growth extending into the loosened earth I planted it in.  3 of the spots I did are doing extremely well.  A few others were planted later so they just need time.  I've watered the dirty monotub, and currently have 13 litres of substrate being pasteurized for my first somewhat sterile mono.

I just checked on my jars, I have 19 of them, some of which have started invitro pinning.  I have decided it would be nice to allow the invitro jars to finish pinning for a flush then toss them into a third monotub, while the remaining 14 jars I will divide evenly between two monotubs.

I'm gunna leave them soaking until 11 or so tomorrow then put in FC.  Considering the crazy knotting it shouldn't be too long (a week, week and a half maybe) to get a flush and some additional spore print syringes.

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Re: sterility [Re: xtofury]
    #10784145 -

There is some myc growth in that jar but it is still fairly moist so I'm gunna give it another day before I snap a pic of it.  I flipped the 5 cakes soaking in a tub at room temperature (people say don't bother with the fridge, and I really don't mind).  I got a pile of work done, considering how long it takes to squeeze the shit out of....shit... lol

I got a monotub completed, the poo was pasteurized, squeezed out as best as I could (my hands friggin hurt from it), I used 1 cake and mixed it within the lower layer substrate, put 6 cakes in the middle layer, threw a thin layer of substrate on top, closed the lid, now I'm gunna forget about it for a week.

While I was at it, I remember buying this rubbing alcohol made of "denatured ethanol" for about $3 for 500ml, so I decided to make a double boiler with a jar and a pot of water at 90 C, and researched the things it contains, which all boil at a much higher temperature so it's ok..... still I'm going to distill it a couple of times in order to get some really good stuff, I'm hoping to get a 750 ml out of 1.5L and still have some left over, seems to be working since I drank a shot of the heads.  95% anhydrous ethanol.... lol....
I'm willing to bet if I make a good screw-on reflux head I can get some wicked stuff at 2-3 distillations -- tonight I managed to get 2/5ths of a 26er filled up which isn't bad.  It would be nice to get a bottle of everclear equivalent for $6-$9 considering it is about $35-$40 out here.  A trip to the hardware store ought to make the 2nd distillation run much higher quality.  I'll be snapping a few more pics later...

Anyways tomorrow I am birthing 5 cakes, then after a party have a nap, and it's back to distilling the other half of the poo.  My god I wanted to do 8 monos and squeezing this poo has gotta be the biggest pain.  So what does everybody do to get that done good and easy?  Ideas would help.

So first thing monday morning I'm going to start pasteurizing poo and hopefully by the afternoon (it takes  a long time to get the internal temperature good for long enough), I'll get another round of squeezing, and another 7 cakes (that will probably end up starting invitro pinning) will go into tub #2.  I'll get the jars all sanitized and all equipment ready and organized for another run at this.

The non-sterilized mono also seems fine, with visible rizos developing around the chunks.

Things are looking REALLY good with the outdoor beds as there is a good chance of rain, every single day until friday, with cooler temperatures :smile:  I'm thinking this will trigger pinning and so the next week is a bit of a wait, the following week or two are gunna be DAMN good.  I took all of the poo water and I dumped it on the garden to see how it'll be with regular plants in a garden, figured it would be ok but guess we'll see.  Is it worth pouring it on the outdoor spots or should I just chuck it?

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Re: sterility [Re: xtofury]
    #10784458 -

You can easily duplicate outdoor natural conditions inside or in a greenhouse, IF you want all that mess, bugs and mold, AND you're willing to get one or two mushrooms(or none) for all the mess and effort.  The reason we use sterile technique is because it works far better than outdoors, where everything is in balance.
RR


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Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Re: sterility [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10789216 -

oh I don't doubt that doing things the proper way would produce slightly better results, but thusfar, I have a half colonized jar and I'm wondering, why the hell would anybody continue doing things the proper way if they were to plan an outdoor bed for example, when it just seems to be a waste of time.  Thusfar no mold.  Mold is easy to spot, easy to smell, even when it's contained and not exposed, and I know you can get some real nasty mold but my fiancee can detect it at much smaller amounts before it begins to turn into a problem.  My fiancee says its because he is jewish.  LOL

anyways, seems to be working real well, I've got the dirty mono and one sterile mono, I'm making another sterile mono tomorrow...

Don't certain climates limit the sorts of molds that can develop, aren't MAJORITY of the problems caused by climates that exceed 80 F on a regular basis?  when temps range from 60-80 it doesn't seem to be as big of an issue.

The bugs don't seem so bad, before people had houses they had to live with them anyways.  The mold, well it just hasn't happened yet -- it has contamned jars that were sterile, but anything that I've neglected it hasn't.  Isn't this the sort of thing that people should observe their environment and pay attention to mycellium reaction to gauge?

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Re: sterility [Re: xtofury]
    #10799050 -

do you cultivate contams often or is it a hobby you have recently gotten into? the main reason for sterility is so your mycellium doesn't struggle so hard to gain a foothold on the substrate. you can also take a shit in the middle of your bed but it's no substitute for a toilet. just saying, there's more than one way to skin a cat, the easy way, the hard way, and the WRONG way. just my 2 cents.

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Re: sterility [Re: apoonanor]
    #10799157 -

does it really matter when things are going outdoors anyways?  Sure it's easier for contamns to take over, at that point, you just take what growth you got and toss it outside.  Why the heck are people so worried about contamns, I've been getting great results from my outdoor patches thusfar.  Honestly the only reason why I'm doing anything indoors is because I can't grow outdoors in the middle of winter, otherwise I just simply wouldn't give a fuck and be plenty happy with mostly colonized pf tek jars.  Growing inside is riskier anyways -- if you get busted with mushrooms in your garden you aren't responsible for them, whereas if you get busted with them in your house, YOU ARE.

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Re: sterility [Re: xtofury]
    #10799277 -

does it really matter when things are going outdoors anyways?

if you already have colonized myc, it's not that big of a deal. while the myc is still colonizing (or before inoculation), sterility is a must. there's a reason people do things a certain way and it's surely not just for shits and giggles. these sort of things have been tested ad nauseum. early on in the growth of myc, things have to be sterile in order for the myc to be able to colonize. if there are other spores or bacteria present, there's a good chance you're going to be starting a bacteria farm instead of growing mushrooms. once the myc is fully colonized, it's considerably less susceptible to contams. that's why you don't have to be quite so clean when laying sub or making casings. i'm in NO way trying to be argumentative, i'm just trying to explain why things are done a certain way.

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Re: sterility [Re: apoonanor]
    #10799934 -

lol well you don't see me suggesting innoculating a dirty jar do you?

That would be somewhat pointless, I've tried that one too and it almost never works.  So far I'm up to about 100 jars done, I've had plenty of little experiments and I'll probably have a pile more of them... my next run will be to get all those 100 jars working at the same time (after I clean them, what a bitch, I'm still worn out from squeezing water out of pasteurized sheep shit, and my fiancee injured his wrist doing that -- next monos I do I'll have an apple press or something to deal with that issue and get things done faster... plus maybe a dozen more bins).  Still, for my indoor mono's I'd rather be perfectly clean.

No actually I don't take what you said as being argumentative, in fact, I totally agree with what you just wrote there.

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Mushroom Cultivation
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