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Re: Compromise [Re: ]
    #1071693 -

"The abortion industry is about money, and men. Men are the ones who made the Roe v Wade decision, men are the ones who profit the most financially, and men are the ones who distort the facts and figures that shroud this multi-billion dollar industry."

This is idiotic. When you're argument has a glaring problem in it, a good way to avoid having to face up to that problem is to find some convoluted way of accusing the opposing side of the same thing before they have the chance of doing it to you. There are lots of female abortion doctors. It may have been men who made the Roe v. Wade decision, but they wouldn't have come to that decision without the influence of women.

Plus, multi-billion dollar industry? What the fuck are you talking about?



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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Compromise [Re: Phluck]
    #1071886 -

I didn't say anything about homosexuality being correct or incorrect. I was pointing out that opinions can be correct or incorrect. Homosexuality cannot be a diagnosable disease and not a diagnosable disease at the same time. Either it is or it isn't. Since the 'experts' have had both opinions at one time or another they were wrong.

To answer your question in advance, my mother had her abortion in 1950. There wasn't any pro-life movement at that time. It is not the pro-life movement that causes these women to experience PAS. It is the guilt of knowing they killed their child. You should do some research on this from both sides. There are many facts on this issue that are hidden from public view. For example, there was a time that the Roman Catholic church did not forbid abortion. Very few people that I know who are pro-life know that.

The same reasoning of blaming the Pro-Life movement for the guilt is the same reasoning Freud used for sexual dysfunction. He called it repression. If he were correct the sexually uninhibited 60's would have solved everything. They didn't.

Don't take my word for any of this. You're bright. Do a lot of research or even more research and reach your own conclusions.

By the way, I am not saying that the state doesn't have the right, in the US, to have abortion legal. It is a state issue though, not a Federal one. Just another instance where the federal government of the US made laws in a place where they have no business.

Cheers,

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Re: Compromise [Re: ]
    #1071976 -

"I didn't say anything about homosexuality being correct or incorrect. I was pointing out that opinions can be correct or incorrect. Homosexuality cannot be a diagnosable disease and not a diagnosable disease at the same time. Either it is or it isn't. Since the 'experts' have had both opinions at one time or another they were wrong."

Homosexuality exists. We know it exists. Whether or not it is a disease is a matter of opinion. This means that neither side can be correct or incorrect.

"My mother had her abortion in 1950."

Didn't you say it took her 20 years to experience guilt?

"The same reasoning of blaming the Pro-Life movement for the guilt is the same reasoning Freud used for sexual dysfunction. He called it repression. If he were correct the sexually uninhibited 60's would have solved everything. They didn't."

I'm not sure if you understood what I meant. I don't see how repression factors into this.

Another thing though, the sexual revolution did not end sexual repression, and Freud never said that all sexual dysfunction comes from repressed sexuality. He said a lot more of it came from childhood trauma.

The 60's were not totally sexually uninhibited. Not by a long shot. There's no way you can change an entire society's outlook in a matter of years. It takes decades, even centuries.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Compromise [Re: ]
    #1072426 -

Mr_Mushrooms writes:

Abortion kills a living human being. That is inarguable and incontrovertible.

It is neither inarguable nor incontrovertible. Define "living", "human", and "being", specify exactly WHEN within the typical nine month term the abortion takes place, then check your assumptions.

pinky


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Re: Compromise [Re: Phluck]
    #1072566 -

"Homosexuality exists. We know it exists. Whether or not it is a disease is a matter of opinion. This means that neither side can be correct or incorrect."

So diseases are a matter of opinion? Funny, I thought they were real.

"Didn't you say it took her 20 years to experience guilt?"

No, what I did say was:

"One of the hallmarks of PAS is that it often does not evidence itself until many years have passed, sometimes as many as 20 years can go by before the women crumbles under the guilt and shame of knowing that she killed her baby."

Do you see the difference in what I said and what you thought I said?

Even if it took 20 years for it to develop that would be 1970. There was no "Pro-Life" movement at that time. In 1970 the states of New York and California had abortion. In 1973 the Supreme Court ruled twice giving two separate opinions that resulted in abortion of demand. My mother's symptoms arrived much earlier than that.

My point was that blaming the Pro-Life movement for the guilt that they have for killing their child is a non-causal correlation.

Really though, you should read more about this.

Cheers,

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Re: Compromise [Re: Phred]
    #1072585 -

Pinky,

I have the utmost respect for your ability to reason but we have been over this before. You cannot define away human life. Biological science has highly defined defintions regarding this issue. If you have some other source that says otherwise please post it.

I did not mean that someone could not take the opposing view but merely that if they did they would have to disregard the facts. People argue about whether the Earth is flat and whether we landed on the moon. That does not negate the fact that we landed on the moon nor that the Earth is not flat. Those facts are incontrovertible as well.

Cheers,

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Re: Compromise [Re: ]
    #1072681 -

You cannot define away human life. Biological science has highly defined defintions regarding this issue.

Is a blastocyst a living human being? Nope. Not legally, and abortion is about legality (laws are embodiments of moral principles), not biology. This is the Political Discussion forum, where we debate things of ethical significance, not the Spirituality and Philosophy and Science forum, where we debate biological minutiae.

Abortion kills a living human being.

To decide whether or not this is a true statement in the context of morality, one must define "living". Can a blastocyst survive outside the uterus unassisted? Nope. Its "life" is conditional, as is the life of an appendix. Does a blastocyst consist of cells containing human DNA that are alive? Yes. Does an appendix consist of cells containing human DNA that are alive? Yes. Is an appendix "alive"?

I am not denying that an abortion involves the death of living human cells, as does any surgical procedure. But can those cells be legally (and morally) considered a "living human being"?

We must also define "being". Is a blastocyst a being? Nope. It is, at best, if all goes well, a potential being. Until such time as it is separate and distinct from its host, it can be argued it is not a "being" at all. Some people even argue that a developing fetus matches pretty closely the definition of "parasite".

I did not mean that someone could not take the opposing view but merely that if they did they would have to disregard the facts.

What "facts"? Is a fertilized egg a living human being? Please provide me links to sites which show this has been established as an incontrovertible FACT, because I've never come across one. In the opinion of some people, the instant an egg is fertilized it is a living human being. In the opinion of others, it is not. As a matter of interest, in some societies even a newborn infant is not considered a human being yet... both their mores and their legal systems say that until a certain time has passed (varying from days to weeks, usually) the infant is not a human being.

People argue about whether the Earth is flat and whether we landed on the moon. That does not negate the fact that we landed on the moon nor that the Earth is not flat.

Not acceptable analogies, since neither involves LIFE. A more acceptable comparison would be the debate (still unresolved, by the way) over whether viruses and prions can be considered living organisms or not.

pinky


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Edited by pinksharkmark (11/21/02 03:09 AM)

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Re: Compromise [Re: Phred]
    #1072712 -

Well said.


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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.

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Re: Compromise [Re: Phluck]
    #1072723 -

If it would end abortion I would gladly adopt a child and raise it up.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: Compromise [Re: ]
    #1073797 -

"So diseases are a matter of opinion? Funny, I thought they were real." In this case, yes, they are. If it's something like cancer, then no. Obviously cancer is a disease, it kills people. Everyone knows homosexuality exists. If you think that homosexuality is wrong, then it's a disease, if you don't think it's wrong, then it's not.

So nobody was against abortion until 1973? Up until then it was considered fine?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Compromise [Re: Phluck]
    #1074727 -

Actually homosexuality is genetic. There are slight differences in brain structure as well. It isnt a disease. It seems that the gene is passed to you (for gay males) through your mother, and a determining factor is whether her brother(s) are gay. If they are you have a higher probability of being gay.

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Re: Compromise [Re: Phred]
    #1074795 -

It is a common practice of those who favor abortion to try and redefine the terms and frame the argument in such a way that abortion is something other than the killing of a human. However, the facts are never on their side.

I have no intention of arguing this with you because you cannot understand simple biology.

I asked you before in a previous argument to give a website or some kind of authority in the biological sciences to back up your claim. I have just repeated the request. The fact is you cannot do it.

Yes, a blastocyst is certainly a human being. If it is not what is it? A biological organism that is contained within itself and whose DNA is distinct is a separate individual no matter what stage of development it is at.

In order for the debate to continue between us on this subject you will have to offer some kind of evidence that relies on scientific fact. From there we can proceed to discuss the morality of the issue.

The legal issue in reference to the Supreme Court decision, Roe v Wade, turns on the issue of personhood not whether the subject person is a living human being. Go back and read the decision.

Cheers,

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Re: Compromise [Re: Phred]
    #1074965 -

"To decide whether or not this is a true statement in the context of morality, one must define "living". Can a blastocyst survive outside the uterus unassisted? Nope. Its "life" is conditional, as is the life of an appendix."

Can a fully developed, walking, breathing human being survive outside of planet Earth unasisted? Nope. Its life is conditional. Are you also saying that a person who is ill and requires a machine to do their breathing for them and would die without it is also not "living"?

"We must also define "being". Is a blastocyst a being? Nope. It is, at best, if all goes well, a potential being. Until such time as it is separate and distinct from its host, it can be argued it is not a "being" at all. Some people even argue that a developing fetus matches pretty closely the definition of "parasite"."

Some people argue that human beings, in the context of planet Earth, closely match the definition of parasite. If the Earth is our host, since it does provide the materials and environment for all living beings upon it to survive, then by this logic, until human beings have discovered a way to live independent of the Earth, they are not "beings" at all and are not legally entitled to protection from murder by the law.



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Re: Compromise [Re: Buddha5254]
    #1075995 -

****Actually homosexuality is genetic. ****

there is absolutely no evidence that being a homo is a genetic or medical condition. There is just enough evidence that it's a choice then genetic. Just saying it's genetic is a convenient excuse.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Compromise [Re: ]
    #1076005 -

i don't feel the need to explain to people in depth WHY i am against abortion or argue what a HUMAN is. This is a no win argument that is full of ignorance (not directed at anyone in particular). People believe what they believe. I'm sure if there we're some kind of scientific evidence that the fetus was a baby there would still be just as many that are pro-death as their are pro-life.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Compromise [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1076625 -

Yes it is genetic, just like it is genetic for you to be attracted to females. Sure, some people make the choice, but the vast majority say they have felt that way as long as they can remember. Who in their right mind would CHOOSE to be homosexual?

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Re: Compromise [Re: Buddha5254]
    #1076686 -

****Yes it is genetic, just like it is genetic for you to be attracted to females. Sure, some people make the choice, but the vast majority say they have felt that way as long as they can remember****

they're just justifying their choice. Give me an example of evidence that it's genetic and i'll find another that there is not. Remember just saying it doesn't make it so....even for you.

****Who in their right mind would CHOOSE to be homosexual? ****

Anne Hasche is one that comes to mind, but i digress. People make a lot of choices that seem odd and even disturbing (such as decideing to be a liberal)....or in this case homosexuality.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Compromise [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1076938 -

I could go into a lot of detail over this.

People CHOOSE to experiment. Due to the nature of a woman's sexuality, it's easier to find oneself attracted to a member of the same sex.

Do you really think you could magically switch to being attracted to men? I know I couldn't.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Compromise [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1076958 -

So when did you make your concious decision not to be attracted to men?

Was it a difficult decision?

Did you draw out a flowchart?


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https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: Compromise [Re: Phluck]
    #1077009 -

****People CHOOSE to experiment. ****

and people choose to be a homo. Some choose to have sex with little kids and others choose to have two women.....it's all about choice.

****Due to the nature of a woman's sexuality, it's easier to find oneself attracted to a member of the same sex.****

apparantly it is an easier choice for others.....keyword being choice

****Do you really think you could magically switch to being attracted to men? I know I couldn't. ****

me personally? NO because i find homosexuality completely discusting. The act not the person.

i've met bi-sexuals that have no problem choosing what life they want to live. I've also seen a homo decide that what he was doing was wrong (in his mind) and became hetro. He married, had 2 kids and is quite happy with his life, at least that's what he says.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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