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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Dennis Prager vs. Perez Hilton (Same Sex Marriage Issue) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10216373 -

Defined by who?  known by who?  And what does this matter?



Are you saying that when congress votes on a law they don't really vote on that law but rather vote on a ciollection of words that have no meaning untill "society" decides what the law means?  The constitution provides for what is law in our federal government, for example, and it has nothing to do with what "society thinks a word should mean" but rather on whether the congress enacts it properly.  You would completely change the meaning of many, many laws and, for example, make it a right for every american to "keep and bear nuclear weapons".  This is why a) congress gets to make its own laws and definitions, and b) why the law means what it meant upon passage for all eternity.

Can you escape the fourteenth amendment by labling the good schools in a district the "x district white people only achievement center"?  After all, we can't be changin the definition of "white people" just cuz some yuppity folk want to have equal rights.  White people has meant one thing for thousands of years and now some guys want to change the definition of white people so they can go to school at the local public district?  The nerve!


Do you think all the schools in brown v board had to do was change the white schools to "white people only school" and then assure the court that they aren't bigoted they just can't be changing the definition of "white people" on account of some uppity negroes?  Of course this is silly, cuz equal means equal, and you cannot cordone off an inequal application of law, without any due process, from the law by choosing a label that excludes whoever you want to exclude.




zappaisgod said:
Why can't the states discriminate on the basis of behavior?  And don't say on the basis of sex.  It's gender.

The marriage deal is a simple boilerplate contract.  The people should decide who gets to use it.  Not judges and not you.  Me?  I don't give two shits.  I would prefer the government have nothing to do with it except to adjudicate it's dissolution just as it does for any other contract dispute.  As far as the tax routine goes it should be removed from the tax code and not added to the marriage code.  Tail wagging dog.



They can discriminate on the basis of behavior and under modern law  that is not a particularly suspect class as is sex.  I don't see the point though, are you trying to argue that it isn't the effect but the motive that should affect 14th amendemtn law or what?


The marriage deal is more than a contract, it gives you rights that can not be contracted between two people.  The issue would be less serious if gays were able to get the same benifits through contracts.


And why is it sex instead of gender?


I don't know why you continue to make the point that marriage shouldn't be a state issue whenever this comes up.  It seems like your equivocating as I've never seen you actually address the issue- its entirely removed from the one you are discussing.

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Re: Dennis Prager vs. Perez Hilton (Same Sex Marriage Issue) [Re: TGRR]
    #10216956 -

TGRR said:
Of course he's homophobic.  There's only one reason to oppose Gay marriage:  Bigotry.



i find it fascinating watching a self-proclaimed 'misanthrope' defend Gay Humans....


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Dennis Prager vs. Perez Hilton (Same Sex Marriage Issue) [Re: lonestar2004]
    #10217096 -

lonestar2004 said:
i find it fascinating watching a self-proclaimed 'misanthrope' defend Gay Humans....


The sheer number of humans attacking gays is one of a great many reasons for misanthropy.  Defending torture is another.  Disregard for the environment yet another...


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Dennis Prager vs. Perez Hilton (Same Sex Marriage Issue) [Re: TGRR]
    #10217313 -

Quote:
I didn't watch the clip but isn't it interesting how (as I read elsewhere) "I didn’t hear the outrage when Joe Biden said that he and Barack Obama are against gay marriage.


those motherfuckers.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Dennis Prager vs. Perez Hilton (Same Sex Marriage Issue) [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10217591 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
learningtofly said:
Marriage predates religion


Really?


Yes really. Marriage has been around for pretty much fucking ever (like before recorded history forever). However at first, and for a long time, it had nothing to do with religion or even love. It was to secure land/wealth, have offspring, and create alliances. Basically it was just business.


--------------------

Edited by learningtofly (04/23/09 02:21 AM)

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Re: Dennis Prager vs. Perez Hilton (Same Sex Marriage Issue) [Re: learningtofly]
    #10217731 -

learningtofly said:
Marriage has been around for pretty much fucking ever (like before recorded history forever).


I have to admit I'm impressed you know how things were before recorded history (including the original definition of marriage?)

Anyway, TGRR noted that the definition of marriage is always changing, like in 1967 when interracial marriage became legal everywhere in the US.  What makes today's definition more "correct" than before 1967?  And why not tomorrow's definition when gay marriage is legal everywhere?  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Dennis Prager vs. Perez Hilton (Same Sex Marriage Issue) [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10218024 -

More to the point, what does the definition have to do with anything?


I'm really wondering if there's not some nationwide breakdown in communication.



I and I believe most people are claiming that you may not deny them rights otherwise provided by the state.  I am not saying they have a right to be called married per se, only that they have a right to the same treatment of the law.


I mean the definition argument seems irrelevant as to everything but the title, so why are people making it?  Could it be that much of the debate is over semantics?  Could the legislature likewise be afraid of enacting civil unions equal except as to name for fear the media will call it marriage?  Anyone thought about this?  Does anyone know what the figures are on who supports/opposes equal rights under a seperate but equal scheme?  Its pretty much imposible for me to not think your bigoted if you don't support such at minimum while opposite sex marriage is still allowed.


I mean this isn't hard.  The state created special rights not otherwise available to anyone.  They limited those rights through the legislature or through "activist judges" in some case to two people of opposite sex.  That is the problem: you are denied the ability to marry a particular person on the basis of your sex and if your gay you are denied the ability to marry anyone you are attracted to on the basis of your sex.  The state called it "marriage", they can change that tomorrow.  They created this problem and now are whining about it.


The upmost in comedy, however; is to hear about "activist judges" now when the same people were perfectly fine with the "activist judges" banning same sex marriage in California thirty years ago despite the statute allowign it.  Its hard to take folks seriously when they only identify this departure from the statutes as a problem when it reaches results they like.

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Re: Dennis Prager vs. Perez Hilton (Same Sex Marriage Issue) [Re: johnm214]
    #10218438 -

> I mean this isn't hard.

Yep, I agree.  The state should endorse civil unions, and civil unions only, between consenting couples, regardless of sexual orientation.  The state deals with contracts and a civil union is a contract.  Marriage, a religious rite, should be left up to the church, and only the church.  (Chuch based marriages would require a valid civil union contract, much like a traditional marriage license.)


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Dennis Prager vs. Perez Hilton (Same Sex Marriage Issue) [Re: johnm214]
    #10218747 -

johnm214 said:
Defined by who?  known by who?  And what does this matter?


I had no part in any definition argument.
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Why can't the states discriminate on the basis of behavior?  And don't say on the basis of sex.  It's gender.

The marriage deal is a simple boilerplate contract.  The people should decide who gets to use it.  Not judges and not you.  Me?  I don't give two shits.  I would prefer the government have nothing to do with it except to adjudicate it's dissolution just as it does for any other contract dispute.  As far as the tax routine goes it should be removed from the tax code and not added to the marriage code.  Tail wagging dog.



They can discriminate on the basis of behavior and under modern law  that is not a particularly suspect class as is sex.  I don't see the point though, are you trying to argue that it isn't the effect but the motive that should affect 14th amendemtn law or what?


The marriage deal is more than a contract, it gives you rights that can not be contracted between two people.  The issue would be less serious if gays were able to get the same benifits through contracts.


Huh?  The marriage deal is not one single thing more than a contract and part of that contract is with the government.  That part should be removed.  There should be no consideration of marital status in any law whatsoever.  THAT is the discrimination which should be removed.  And if you're talking about free market health insurance, start a health insurance company that recognizes homosexual partnerships and get rich rich rich.
Quote:
And why is it sex instead of gender?


Because that is the accurate word.
Quote:
I don't know why you continue to make the point that marriage shouldn't be a state issue whenever this comes up.  It seems like your equivocating as I've never seen you actually address the issue- its entirely removed from the one you are discussing.


Because the government should have nothing to say about it at all between any two consenting adults.  Removing that would make it a complete non-issue.  It should not discriminate on that matter at all.  If it didn't have a stand it wouldn't have a say.  Capisce?  It is a form of social engineering and I abhor social engineering.


--------------------

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Re: Dennis Prager vs. Perez Hilton (Same Sex Marriage Issue) [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10218752 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
lonestar2004 said:
i find it fascinating watching a self-proclaimed 'misanthrope' defend Gay Humans....


The sheer number of humans attacking gays is one of a great many reasons for misanthropy. 


really? learn something every day...


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Dennis Prager vs. Perez Hilton (Same Sex Marriage Issue) [Re: lonestar2004]
    #10219764 -

lonestar2004 said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
lonestar2004 said:
i find it fascinating watching a self-proclaimed 'misanthrope' defend Gay Humans....


The sheer number of humans attacking gays is one of a great many reasons for misanthropy. 


really? learn something every day...


Well, I should let TGRR speak for himself.  I know a misanthrope, and provided some of her reasoning.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Dennis Prager vs. Perez Hilton (Same Sex Marriage Issue) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10219819 -

I'm actually in agreement with you zappa, in principle, but the likelihood of the government not recognizing marriage is probably close to zero at this point.  Since they do, they shouldn't discriminate.

As Redstorm mentioned in another thread, civil unions vs marriage is a "separate but equal" argument.  The supreme court ruled in Brown v. Board of Education that separate but equal isn't equal.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Dennis Prager vs. Perez Hilton (Same Sex Marriage Issue) [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10219864 -

i've changed my opinion on the matter. i actually believe a redefining is in order. and actually against the term "marriage". it should be unions across the board for all with the same rights for all.

the terms husbands/wives should apply appropriately.

thanks for those who helped me understand the issue a bit better.


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!

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Re: Dennis Prager vs. Perez Hilton (Same Sex Marriage Issue) [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10219879 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'm actually in agreement with you zappa, in principle, but the likelihood of the government not recognizing marriage is probably close to zero at this point.  Since they do, they shouldn't discriminate.

As Redstorm mentioned in another thread, civil unions vs marriage is a "separate but equal" argument.  The supreme court ruled in Brown v. Board of Education that separate but equal isn't equal.


I believe that the analogy to Negroes was Perez's best shot and the other guy killed him on it, but that's fine.  Marriage is not a "service" provided by the government.
And, given that we agree the government should stay out, let's try to limit them getting their hooks in it any more than they already do unless the people of the states want them to.  But when the voters repudiate the idea, as they did in California, it is only a heinous loser's lament that leads them to appeal to the Great Unelected, the courts.
Like I said earlier, I can barely muster the energy to force this largely liquid turd out let alone get all wiggy about it.  Let the people speak and that's that.  There is no terrible injustice that cannot already be addressed by the existing laws.


--------------------

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Re: Dennis Prager vs. Perez Hilton (Same Sex Marriage Issue) [Re: Seuss]
    #10220325 -

Seuss said:
> I mean this isn't hard.

Yep, I agree.  The state should endorse civil unions, and civil unions only, between consenting couples, regardless of sexual orientation.  The state deals with contracts and a civil union is a contract.  Marriage, a religious rite, should be left up to the church, and only the church.  (Chuch based marriages would require a valid civil union contract, much like a traditional marriage license.)


End of thread.

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Re: Dennis Prager vs. Perez Hilton (Same Sex Marriage Issue) [Re: lonestar2004]
    #10221686 -

lonestar2004 said:
TGRR said:
Of course he's homophobic.  There's only one reason to oppose Gay marriage:  Bigotry.



i find it fascinating watching a self-proclaimed 'misanthrope' defend Gay Humans....


Oh, I hate them too.

It's a fairness issue.  Misanthropy doesn't imply anarchy.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Re: Dennis Prager vs. Perez Hilton (Same Sex Marriage Issue) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10221694 -

zappaisgod said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'm actually in agreement with you zappa, in principle, but the likelihood of the government not recognizing marriage is probably close to zero at this point.  Since they do, they shouldn't discriminate.

As Redstorm mentioned in another thread, civil unions vs marriage is a "separate but equal" argument.  The supreme court ruled in Brown v. Board of Education that separate but equal isn't equal.


I believe that the analogy to Negroes was Perez's best shot and the other guy killed him on it, but that's fine.  Marriage is not a "service" provided by the government.
And, given that we agree the government should stay out, let's try to limit them getting their hooks in it any more than they already do unless the people of the states want them to.  But when the voters repudiate the idea, as they did in California, it is only a heinous loser's lament that leads them to appeal to the Great Unelected, the courts.
Like I said earlier, I can barely muster the energy to force this largely liquid turd out let alone get all wiggy about it.  Let the people speak and that's that.  There is no terrible injustice that cannot already be addressed by the existing laws.


How about we vote on your right to, say, work at any job that will hire you?


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Re: Dennis Prager vs. Perez Hilton (Same Sex Marriage Issue) [Re: TGRR]
    #10221701 -

Bring it on bitch.  Let's vote.


--------------------

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Re: Dennis Prager vs. Perez Hilton (Same Sex Marriage Issue) [Re: lonestar2004]
    #10221705 -

lonestar2004 said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
lonestar2004 said:
i find it fascinating watching a self-proclaimed 'misanthrope' defend Gay Humans....


The sheer number of humans attacking gays is one of a great many reasons for misanthropy. 


really? learn something every day...



Naw.  I just don't like people.  There's no real logic behind it.

However, since all you fucking primates are on my planet and won't leave, we should probably at least have the rule of law, rather than the rule of bigotry and selective "rights".


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Re: Dennis Prager vs. Perez Hilton (Same Sex Marriage Issue) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10221710 -

zappaisgod said:
Bring it on bitch.  Let's vote.



Okay.  We let California and New York vote, too.

I expect you'd have about as much luck as Palin did. 

You'd be changing bobbins in a week.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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