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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Howard Dean: The last true liberal
    #1671129 - 06/29/03 08:57 AM (21 years, 2 hours ago)

Too bad he probably won't get the nomination. :sad:


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: silversoul7]
    #1671143 - 06/29/03 09:08 AM (21 years, 2 hours ago)

its funny how in america, liberals are soo often villified, but in canada, they have a federalist government and control (almost) everything.

funny...funny stuff.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: silversoul7]
    #1671233 - 06/29/03 10:25 AM (21 years, 1 hour ago)

You must not be famaliar with the Dennis Kucinich campaign... I suggest you look in to him.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1671235 - 06/29/03 10:26 AM (21 years, 1 hour ago)

Yes, I'm aware of Kucinich, but IMO he doesn't have as much credibility(or charisma) as Dean.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: silversoul7]
    #1671242 - 06/29/03 10:34 AM (21 years, 1 hour ago)

Then you're not famaliar with his political history. If you've heard him speak you'de know the fiery passion he brings to an audience. I suggest you look further in to it. He's the only candidate that promises to end the WoD.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1671248 - 06/29/03 10:44 AM (21 years, 51 minutes ago)

You have a point. I can't find anywhere where Dean states his position on the Drug War. But in the debates, Kucinich comes off a little TOO fiery and pissed off.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: silversoul7]
    #1671259 - 06/29/03 10:51 AM (21 years, 44 minutes ago)

Kucinich is the guy that started in a majority GOP district and got it to the point that it votes 70% democratic. He can win if he can get the nomination. He'll stop Bush's fascist aspirations, stop the drug war, and socialize medicine. Only bad thing about him is he's a gun banner like all the other dems. But to preserve democracy I'm willing to vote for him, just once.

www.kucinich.us


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1671261 - 06/29/03 10:53 AM (21 years, 42 minutes ago)

Quote:

Only bad thing about him is he's a gun banner like all the other dems.



It's funny you mention that, because Howard Dean ISN'T a gun banner.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Dennis Kucinich: The last true liberal [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1671263 - 06/29/03 10:54 AM (21 years, 41 minutes ago)

MOVEON PRIMARY: KUCINICH SCORES BIG

An elated Dennis Kucinich commented on the MoveOn vote: "This is a great showing and a tremendous victory for our campaign. Thanks to everyone who worked on his 'First Primary.' You proved the media pundits wrong, and you'll keep proving them wrong throughout the campaign."

If early primaries are about beating expectations, then the clear winner of the MoveOn Primary is Dennis Kucinich. He won 76,000 votes, 2nd place and 24% of the total.

While pundits have tried to relegate us to "fringe" or "2nd tier" status, Democratic voters have finally had their say: "Kucinich is in the top tier." This vote reflects what the Kucinich campaign has been seeing in the field -- the biggest crowds and biggest audience response.

The Dean Campaign did not exceed expectations -- since many thought, given his early start and Internet presence, he'd reach 50% and win MoveOn's endorsement. The Kerry Campaign did not -- it is the best-funded, highest-polling campaign.

It's the Kucinich Campaign that scored big today.

Our fundraising and support base have surged in the last two weeks, partly due to the MoveOn campaign. It's another reason Kucinich is the winner -- because his Internet outreach effort is poised for geometric growth.

Kucinich commented: "As this process goes on, and the differences in the candidates' positions become known to Democratic voters, we are poised to move on and move up."

Top MoveOn vote-getters 1) Dean 44%, 139,000 2) Kucinich 24%, 76,000 3) Kerry 16%, 50,000 (Each of the other six candidates, most considered 'top tier' by mainstream media, received 3% or less).


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: silversoul7]
    #1671267 - 06/29/03 10:56 AM (21 years, 39 minutes ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

Only bad thing about him is he's a gun banner like all the other dems.



It's funny you mention that, because Howard Dean ISN'T a gun banner.



If he's a democrat he'll be one. Look at Al Gore. When he was a senator from tennasee he pretended to be gun friendly but then switched sides to get in with the big fish in the democrat party.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1671271 - 06/29/03 10:57 AM (21 years, 38 minutes ago)

Quote:

If he's a democrat he'll be one. Look at Al Gore. When he was a senator from tennasee he pretended to be gun friendly but then switched sides to get in with the big fish in the democrat party.




In his interview on Meet The Press, he said that he believes states should write their own gun control laws that work best for those states. Also, he's a straight-shooter(no pun intended). Al Gore is not.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: silversoul7]
    #1671277 - 06/29/03 11:01 AM (21 years, 35 minutes ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

If he's a democrat he'll be one. Look at Al Gore. When he was a senator from tennasee he pretended to be gun friendly but then switched sides to get in with the big fish in the democrat party.




In his interview on Meet The Press, he said that he believes states should write their own gun control laws that work best for those states. Also, he's a straight-shooter(no pun intended). Al Gore is not.



If he said he favors states imposing their own gun control he has made a statement in favor of gun control while leaving he door open to sponsoring and signing in to law federal gun banning measures. He's a politician, same as Gore. He has as much in common with you and me as a 3 toes sloth. He's a politicritter, don't mistake him for anything else.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1671288 - 06/29/03 11:05 AM (21 years, 31 minutes ago)

No, what he was saying is that he would leave it up to the states to make the gun control laws that make the most sense for those states and that the federal government shouldn't be making gun control laws for the whole country. He's endorsing state's rights here.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: silversoul7]
    #1671295 - 06/29/03 11:08 AM (21 years, 28 minutes ago)

You're mistaken. He's in favor of gun control. It's not a states rights issue. States don't have the right to ban guns. The bill of rights says "the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." He says he's in favor of states being able to violate the bill of rights on 2nd amendment issues. He has not stated that he opposes federal gun bans/registration. He intentionally leaves that door wide open.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: silversoul7]
    #1671529 - 06/29/03 01:20 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Unless he wants to end the war on drugs he won't get my vote.




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Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish


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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: Learyfan]
    #1671561 - 06/29/03 01:42 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Are you in a dem safe state? Let's not fuck around in 2004 - Bush must be kicked out. I don't believe the dems are lightyears different (holding you in a headlock rather than fucking you through your earholes) but Bush is a disaster.

I like Kucinich but I don't believe he can appeal to the right. Dean **is** soft on gun control, thus he *can* pick up right votes. Plus he's progressive on energy - he pledges to get the country onto 15% sustainable energy by 2010. A Dean /Kucinich ticket would be roses compared to Bush.

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Offlineshakta
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1671566 - 06/29/03 01:45 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Rail_Gun said:
You're mistaken. He's in favor of gun control. It's not a states rights issue. States don't have the right to ban guns. The bill of rights says "the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." He says he's in favor of states being able to violate the bill of rights on 2nd amendment issues. He has not stated that he opposes federal gun bans/registration. He intentionally leaves that door wide open.




This surprises you? Gephardt has said he would overturn Supreme Court decisions he did not like. The Dems seem to have no problem running over the Constitution.

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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: shakta]
    #1671585 - 06/29/03 01:54 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Why do gun afvocates *always* leave out the "well regulated militia" clause of the 2nd amendment?

And, do you believe that the right to bear arms includes, say, nukes? At what point should the line be drawn?

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: shakta]
    #1671586 - 06/29/03 01:54 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
Quote:

Rail_Gun said:
You're mistaken. He's in favor of gun control. It's not a states rights issue. States don't have the right to ban guns. The bill of rights says "the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." He says he's in favor of states being able to violate the bill of rights on 2nd amendment issues. He has not stated that he opposes federal gun bans/registration. He intentionally leaves that door wide open.




This surprises you? Gephardt has said he would overturn Supreme Court decisions he did not like. The Dems seem to have no problem running over the Constitution.



No, it doesn't surprise me at all. I was explaining it to someone that doesn't understand.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Offlineshakta
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1671588 - 06/29/03 01:55 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I know that is what you were doing. The Dems don't seem to have much to offer in the upcoming election.

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1671589 - 06/29/03 01:56 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

somebodyelse said:
Why do gun afvocates *always* leave out the "well regulated militia" clause of the 2nd amendment?

And, do you believe that the right to bear arms includes, say, nukes? At what point should the line be drawn?



The people are the militia. At the time the constitution was written there was no difference and it shows the true intent of the 2nd amendment is for the people to have arms so they'll be capable of overthrowing a corrupt and oppressive government such as the British.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1671596 - 06/29/03 01:59 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

So where is the "well regulated" part? Doesn't "well regulated" include, perhaps, regulation?

And what corrupt and oppressive government are you thinking about now? Do you seriously believe, e.g., a people's uprising against the feds would last a week?

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1671605 - 06/29/03 02:05 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

somebodyelse said:
So where is the "well regulated" part? Doesn't "well regulated" include, perhaps, regulation?

And what corrupt and oppressive government are you thinking about now? Do you seriously believe, e.g., a people's uprising against the feds would last a week? 



Absolutly. People should regularly practice their marksmanship. You're intentionally taking it out of context, you know it doesn't refer to federal government gun bans when in the next clause it says the right shall not be infringed. The first clause does not negate the other two. You need a refresher in high school grammer.

And yes, an uprising against the central government would be successful. The people vastly outnumber any forces the feds can muster. squad of troops in each town to enforce martial law would soon be quickly picked off until there were none left at all. :smile:


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1671610 - 06/29/03 02:10 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Oh, I'm not for federal government gun bans - don't read more into what I say than I do. When the amendment talks of well regulated militias, it is talking of the people's army like groups, who were relied upon to do some of the fighting in the war against the british. These were well-regulated because they were trained and disciplined soldiers, except they didn't work for the government. It is disingenuous to say that they were "the same as the people"; people at the time not part of militias were not included in the right to gun ownership. That's a moot point because the only militias left are generally full of tin foil hat wearers, so we should not apply the amendment literally. But, we can take from it that there should be some control over who gets to own guns - i.e. that a certain expectation in responsibility of the person being given the right, is implied.

I like shooting. But, I do believe their should be restrictions. Just as nukes would IMO be out of the question, so should AK-47s and associated. Also, there should be controls to prevent

Anyway, this is off topic. Dean says that gun control should be left up to the voters of each state. Given that the right is in favor of state's rights, I don't see what you have to whine about.

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1671623 - 06/29/03 02:16 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

somebodyelse said:
Oh, I'm not for federal government gun bans ... But, I do believe their should be restrictions. Just as nukes would IMO be out of the question, so should AK-47s and associated. Also, there should be controls to prevent

Anyway, this is off topic. Dean says that gun control should be left up to the voters of each state. Given that the right is in favor of state's rights, I don't see what you have to whine about.



You contradicted yourself. You said you're not for gun bans but are for banning Aks, which are guns.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1671631 - 06/29/03 02:20 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I am against banning all guns. I believe that common sense says that there should be restrictions on the power of the weapons that you or your neighbor should be allowed to own.

Answer me this: should you be allowed to own nukes? If not, why not? If so, then where would you draw the line between arms that are allowed, and arms that are not?

For me, I believe guns that are "allowable" should be hunting equipment, and self-defense equipment, and then only for those who "well-regulated", which, as above, I believe today equates to a minimum qualfication of responsibility.

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Offlineshakta
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1671641 - 06/29/03 02:30 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

The nuke argument is assinine. Is a nuclear weapon a gun? No it is not. Small arms are guns. Who are you to choose what is allowable? I agree with the well-regulated part. Anyone who owns guns ought to be able to use them. A required safety course would not bother me in the least. We have them for hunters here in Texas. The waiting periods, and instant background checks make sense to me too.

Making semi-automatic weapons illegal does not make sense to me. I have had a Ruger Mini-14 ranch rifle since I was 10. It is a very useful gun on the ranch, as the name implies. I used it for a snake gun primarily when working on my grandparents farm. This is one of the new guns they want to ban. Just because someone can throw a 30 round clip on there and mow down people with it, does not mean it should be banned. Banning guns only, takes the guns out of the hands of law-abiding citizens.

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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1671647 - 06/29/03 02:35 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

somebodyelse said:
Why do gun afvocates *always* leave out the "well regulated militia" clause of the 2nd amendment?



Read VVVVVV


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: shakta]
    #1671650 - 06/29/03 02:38 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

It doesn't talk about guns. It talks about arms., i.e., weapons. I don't think you can play word games - you have to look at the intent of the amendment.

OK, I concede to you that automatic weapons in some situations owned by some people are fine. But I also believe that automatic weapons in other situations owned by other people are inappropriate. I think you'd agree, to take an extreme, that city dwellers who have a criminal history of assault should have restrictions placed upon their right to own powerful guns. I also believe that on your ranch you could have done equally well with a shotgun - I mean unless you were facing wave upon wave of attacked snakes, the automatic action isn't strictly necessary.

Anyway, as Michael Moore aptly points out, it isn't the guns themselves that are the problem. And again, tying this back to Dean, he puts it on each state's voters. Why would that worry you?


[PS - the feds have an army of how many million - 3 million? - highly trained soldiers, plus cops, SWAT teams, other fed agencies, at their dispoasal. Given that the resistance of armed citizens would yield - generously - 1 million armed, many untrained, in opposition, I still contend it wouldn't have a chance.]


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1671668 - 06/29/03 02:53 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

It is disingenuous to say that they were "the same as the people"; people at the time not part of militias were not included in the right to gun ownership.[/QUOTE]
Bullshit.

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people
always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use
them." (Richard Henry Lee, Virginia delegate to the Continental Congress,
initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate,
which passed the Bill of Rights.)

"The great object is that every man be armed . . . Everyone who is able may
have a gun." (Patrick Henry, in the Virginia Convention on the ratification of
the Constitution.)

"The advantage of being armed . . . the Americans possess over the people of
all other nations . . . Notwithstanding the military establishments in the
several Kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources
will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (James
Madison, author of the Bill of Rights, in his Federalist Paper No. 26.)

Congress had organized the National Guard under its power to raise and support Armies and not its power to provide or organizing arming and disciplining the "militia" mentioned in the Second Amendment. The modern National Guard was specifically intended to avoid statutes such as the "constitutional militia", a distinction recognized by 10 U.S.C. 311 (A) The judicial subcommittee interpretation of the Second Amendment coincided with the original intent of the document. I came to this conclusion from researching American leaders, newspaper articles and the average citizens of early America. Here is what they had to say. "?.I ask who are the militia? They consist of the whole people, except a few public officers." George Mason (Virginia's U. S. Constitution Ratification Convention,1788)

"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords and every other terrible implement of the soldier are the birthright of an American." (The Pennsylvania Gazette, June 18, 1788)

"The militia, who are in fact the effective part of the people at large will render many troops quite unnecessary. They will form a powerful check upon the regular troops and will generally be sufficient to over-awe them." Tench Coxe (an American citizen, October 21, 1787)

"?the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Who are the people? In the court case United States v Verdugo-Urquirdez (110S Ct. 3039,1990), the term "the people" was established to mean the same as in the Second Amendment as it did in the First, Fourth, Ninth and in the Preamble to the Constitution. "The people" means at least all citizens and legal aliens while in the United States. This case resolves any doubt that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual the right to keep and bear arms.

The Random House dictionary defines infringe: v.1 to commit a breach or infraction of v.2 to encroach or trespass, to infringe on someone's privacy. I would like to add other quotations that will put the Second Amendment's meaning in proper perspective.

"No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms." Thomas Jefferson (proposed Virginia Constitution, 1776)

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. . . . such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." Thomas Jefferson Commonplace Book, 1774-1775 quoting from On Crime and Punishment by criminologist Cesare Beccaria, 1764.

"It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error." U. S. Supreme Court Justice Robert H. Jackson

"The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are the constitutional rights secure." Albert Einstein

"Do not separate text from historical background. If you do you will have perverted and subverted the Constitution, which can only end in a distorted, bastardized form of illegitimate government." James Madison (known as the "Father of the Constitution" and the fourth president of the United States of America)



Quote:

That's a moot point because the only militias left are generally full of tin foil hat wearers, so we should not apply the amendment literally.



Bullshit. There were no TV and Radio when the B.O.R. was written, should they not be covered by the freedom of the press?


Quote:

so should AK-47s and associated.



Not according to the Supreme Court in US vs Miller.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1671681 - 06/29/03 02:58 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

It doesn't talk about guns.



Pretty fucking disingenuous of you. The first doesn't talk about TV and Radio.

Quote:

It doesn't talk about guns. It talks about arms., i.e., weapons. I don't think you can play word games - you have to look at the intent of the amendment.



Bullshit. The intent is that all who wish to be armed, may be.


Quote:

And again, tying this back to Dean, he puts it on each state's voters. Why would that worry you?



Because it's a Federal right. If left to the states there could be as many as 50 different set of laws (which there already are but are trumped by federal law).

Would you like to see 50 sets of laws on freedom of the press? Right against illegal search and seizure?

You can't pick and choose which rights you honor.


The soldiers, in the end, wouldn't stand a chance. How many do you think would take up arms against their fellow countrymen?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisible1stimer
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Posts: 1,280
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1671698 - 06/29/03 03:08 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

so i should be able to own a gattling gun, or bazooka, attack helicopter, claymore mines, land mines?


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1671727 - 06/29/03 03:26 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

somebodyelse said:
I am against banning all guns. I believe that common sense says that there should be restrictions on the power of the weapons that you or your neighbor should be allowed to own.

Answer me this: should you be allowed to own nukes? If not, why not? If so, then where would you draw the line between arms that are allowed, and arms that are not?

For me, I believe guns that are "allowable" should be hunting equipment, and self-defense equipment, and then only for those who "well-regulated", which, as above, I believe today equates to a minimum qualfication of responsibility.



It's too easy to knock down a straw man, they don't push back. LOL@the idea of it though.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: 1stimer]
    #1671743 - 06/29/03 03:34 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

1stimer said:
so i should be able to own a gattling gun, or bazooka, attack helicopter, claymore mines, land mines?



While that could be a problem, there is no distinction made in the B.O.R.

Try and buy some.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1671757 - 06/29/03 03:38 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

BTW since it came up, I know for a fact gattling guns are not restricted. You can buy kits for converting .22 rifles in to low capacity gatling guns. They have terrible aim, but I guess it could be fun to try to hit pop cans with it as you crank it. They are however antiques and a PITA. Automatic weapons are much more useful.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1672151 - 06/29/03 07:44 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Thank you all for derailing my topic.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlineshakta
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: silversoul7]
    #1673608 - 06/30/03 09:18 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Sorry. BTW, the Ruger Mini 14 is not automatic. It is semi-automatic. The point is, it is a great all purpose gun. Snakes, deer, rabbits, whatever. Easy and quick to use, and it is compact.

Ok, so it says arms. I think we can all safely assume that it does not include nukes. As far as helicopters and tanks go, sure you can own them if they are for sale. Lots of people own old tanks. The military generally disables the guns before selling them though.

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Offlinedrfrei
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Registered: 02/27/03
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: shakta]
    #1673910 - 06/30/03 12:15 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

the drug war is irrelevant. It will be overturned by the Supreme Court or it will be ended by huge demonstrations. Neither democrat nor Republican will end it voluntarily, no matter what they think to themselves. They all know its already futile, but there is a huge monetary concern

Neither party will end the drug war. It will be the courts or the people gathering in the streets pushing the issue

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Offlinedrfrei
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: drfrei]
    #1673918 - 06/30/03 12:22 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

HOWever, to get back on topic, I do liike Dean and dont know that much about the other fellow, Kununich (sic). I am going to do some research into him. Dean seems to talk very straight, and does a minimum of 'strategic' answering which can be switched around later. That is unusual in politics. With all the young people coming to office, I wonder if any of them are saying to themselves, "I'll look like a good little boy and then when I'm there . . . . "

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Offlinedrfrei
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Re: Howard Dean: The last true liberal [Re: drfrei]
    #1673956 - 06/30/03 12:38 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

by luvdemshrooms

Right against illegal search and seizure?

hehe. Actually, States routinely turn over criminal cases to the Feds because the States usually have much higher standards for such things as 'probably cause' and right to search. In the feds, there is no such thing as probable cause any more, or the need fore search warrants (I know this from firsthand knowledge). The Fed courts look at it like, if the evidence was there the officer was acting in requirements of the law and was acting on best faith.

But you are right about the other. The States would have to meet a benchmark on rights, whatever that was determined to be, kinda like regulating alcohol I guess. But they would have to meet a minimum benchmark of what could be allowed and what not and tailor it from there.

Interesting point. So long as it was waiting periods and the like instead of saying, you can';t buy a gun because you live in the wrong neighborhood type of thing . . . .

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