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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10147486 -

Quote:
Russia is now a free country


:lol:

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Seuss]
    #10147505 -

Seuss said:
> My claim was that "North Korea resumed their nuclear program under Bush".

Your claim is incorrect because it would require that North Korea had stopped their nuclear program at some point prior to Bush.  Even today, North Korea has an active nuclear weapons program, and it hasn't gone idle once since 1962 when they began it.


I showed evidence that North Korea signed treaties to halt nuclear weapon and missile production.  That is not under debate.  What is under debate is whether or not they followed the terms of those agreements.  If you claim they didn't, where is your evidence?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Redstorm]
    #10147532 -

Redstorm said:
Quote:
Russia is now a free country


:lol:


Why is that funny?  I'm serious - please explain.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10147543 -

They obviously highly value the freedom of press. Just ask the dead journalists.

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10147551 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:That link is Pravda.  Are you fucking kidding me?


I guess you haven't heard of Perestroika?  Russia is now a free country, and Pravda's news is probably more accurate than Fox.  Regardless, the same information is everywhere.


There's some other information available as well which directly contradicts that.  Your Pravda link says the NORKS unilaterally shut down their program.  Given the fact that the Agreed Framework existed it was clearly not unilaterally.  They were bribed to do it.  Except they didn't.
Quote:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:You don't make that shit in 2 years, child.  They were obviously violating their agreement with Clinton and Albright all along.


North Korea was working on their nuclear program well before Clinton.  That was the reason Clinton got North Korea to sign the 1994 Geneva nuclear agreement in the first place.


Correct.  What is also correct is that they never stopped.  While Clinton and Albright watched.  Or, rather, didn't.


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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Redstorm]
    #10147583 -

Redstorm said:
They obviously highly value the freedom of press. Just ask the dead journalists.


:thumbup:


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Sid and Mr. Madhat <part one> A story by Cubie P. Cubensis
<> I WANNA SMOKE THIS BOWL <> <A comic by Cubie P. Cubensis>

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10147622 -

zappaisgod said:
They were bribed to do it.  Except they didn't.


zappaisgod said:
they never stopped.


So you can't back up your claim then?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10147639 -

What claim?  That Clinton and Albright allowed the NORKS to develop nuclear weapons in defiance of the treaty they negotiated?  I thought I did.


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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Cubie]
    #10147640 -

Cubie said:
Redstorm said:
They obviously highly value the freedom of press. Just ask the dead journalists.


:thumbup:


American journalists were killed for reporting on the Mexican border violence.  Does that mean America is not a free country?  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10147656 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Cubie said:
Redstorm said:
They obviously highly value the freedom of press. Just ask the dead journalists.


:thumbup:


American journalists were killed for reporting on the Mexican border violence.  Does that mean America is not a free country?  :shrug:


By the US government?

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Redstorm]
    #10147893 -

Redstorm said:
By the US government?


I don't know.  Do you know who killed the Russian jouralists?  And were the articles published in some "underground" paper, or mainstream media?  That's another indication if they're free or not.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Redstorm]
    #10147934 -

heh Given the Russian government's history with NK I see no reason they would force a story to sound different.

For zappa I don't think you did prove that NK declared it had nukes. My impression from what I recall seeing was that they didn't declare they had nukes until the world already knew after they detonated one in what was that 2006/7 some time? Given the timeline and the devotion of NK's economy to these sorts of tasks I seriously think that it's likely that NK did stop it's program for at least a good portion of the time after 1994. Actually the timeline makes sense if NK was good to it's word on treaties. It would be weird if a country like that had a serious nukes program and took well over a decade to develop them.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10147938 -

Quote:
And were the articles published in some "underground" paper, or mainstream media?  That's another indication if they're free or not.


Does it really matter where they're "allowed" to publish if they're being "censored" after the fact?

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10147953 -

falcon the international media has reported on killed journalists in Russia because
1)journalists want to stand up for each other
2)They are scared shitless that something like that would happen to them.
3)I believe some international journalists have been killed in Russia as well.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10147979 -

ScavengerType said:
heh Given the Russian government's history with NK I see no reason they would force a story to sound different.

For zappa I don't think you did prove that NK declared it had nukes. My impression from what I recall seeing was that they didn't declare they had nukes until the world already knew after they detonated one in what was that 2006/7 some time? Given the timeline and the devotion of NK's economy to these sorts of tasks I seriously think that it's likely that NK did stop it's program for at least a good portion of the time after 1994. Actually the timeline makes sense if NK was good to it's word on treaties. It would be weird if a country like that had a serious nukes program and took well over a decade to develop them.


I provided a link to something that said they declared they had nukes in 2003.  I didn't have to search real hard to find it.  And your assessment of how long it takes a nuke program to bear fruit is erroneous.  Prove it?  Feh, not possible, how can you prove anything with those loons?  But I did back my statement up.  Given that they came up with a bomb in 2003 it would be stupid to believe they suspended their program until 2001, wouldn't it?  But you can chug commie choad if you want.


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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Redstorm]
    #10148036 -

Redstorm said:
Does it really matter where they're "allowed" to publish if they're being "censored" after the fact?


It only matters if they were killed by the Government.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10148056 -

zappaisgod said:
Prove it?  Feh, not possible, how can you prove anything with those loons?


Same shit was said about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq...  :stoned:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10148087 -

zappa I read your link it only says they have nukes in a sensationalist sense as it's headlining sentience. Only one sentence in that article says they declared that they have a nuke and it cites no source or data other than the US government. It's obviously a bunch of crap because the US and the world would know if NK had a nuke. So even if the US gov source is truthful it's just obvious bullshit anyway. It's not proof by any means that NK had any nukes until the underground tests that everyone knew about because of the seismic rattle of it.

Zappa You can say you got nukes but until you detonate all you got is an expensive research project.

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10148118 -

OK fine.  YOU can believe they stopped their program if you want.  I think it's pretty clear, based on demonstrable and/or self-reported results, they didn't.  They may be lying about the whole thing and still don't have a bomb.  Regarding the NORKs we can only rely on what gets out.  We know they had a big explosion and we know their missile shit the bed.  I would much rather err on the side of caution and if they say "We are nuclear armed assholes" it's best to operate under the assumption that they are.  If they say they are wonderfully proficient sex machines it's best to just say umhm, yep, sure you are.


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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10148359 -

Zappa at the time that they apparently made that claim they did not test a nuke. The whole world knows when a country becomes nuclear armed because of the seismic data caused by an underground detonation. Since it was 2 years or more after that statement (if it was from an honest source and they actually made the claim) it is obvious that they did not have nuclear weapons at that time. They do now and the whole world knew before NK even made an official statement.

If it's demonstratable that they did not stop work on developing a nuclear weapon during the period from 1994 to 2001 why haven't you demonstrated that. That's what falcon has been asking you to prove.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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General Interest > Political Discussion
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