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 Baby_Hitler
Errorist
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,652
Loc: To the limit!
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 Re: north korean train wreck  [Re: silversoul7]
#2596039 - 04/23/04 07:27 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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I meant anything having anything to do with this thread.
I'd probably be surprised if my elbows started talking.
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This space for rent
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 silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: north korean train wreck [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#2596043 - 04/23/04 07:28 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'd be surprised if Kim Jong Il's elbows started talking.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: north korean train wreck [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#2596158 - 04/23/04 08:18 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Come to think of it, I can't think of anything that would surprise me.
What if I was nice to everyone for a whole week?
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,652
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Last seen: 10 minutes, 1 second
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Then I'd get nervous and think you were up to something.
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This space for rent
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: north korean train wreck [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#2596219 - 04/23/04 08:39 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Anonymous
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Re: north korean train wreck [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#2597464 - 04/24/04 08:42 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Baby_Hitler said:
If we ever do something like that I'd rather we sent a sniper than a bomber.
On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if Kim blamed it on us whether we did it or not. I also wouldn't be surprised if he set it up himself in order to blame us for it.
Come to think of it, I can't think of anything that would surprise me.
i thought something similar
they were demanding food aid and oil a few months ago,seems like they'll get it now for sure regardless of whether they keep on making nukes or not
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
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Re: north korean train wreck [Re: silversoul7]
#2597892 - 04/24/04 12:05 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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> ... There leaders are sane enough to know that no one wins in a nuclear Holocaust.
Time to read your history. General Curtis LeMay was begging Kennedy to nuke Cuba during the Cuban missle crisis. He was certain that Russia couldn't strike back and that an all out offensive starting with Cuba would end communism world wide.
We just recently found out that Cuba had missles ready to fire at the US and that the USSR had given the field commanders in Cuba permission to launch their nuclear missles if they were attacked. This was the only time in history that the USSR had given their field commanders permission to use nuclear weapons in response to an attack.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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stew248
Stranger
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Re: north korean train wreck [Re: Seuss]
#2598522 - 04/24/04 04:17 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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But Kennedy was smart enough to not nuke the shit out of cuba. This is the point. Reasonable leaders will avoid a nuclear war at all costs.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: north korean train wreck [Re: Seuss]
#2598873 - 04/24/04 07:46 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Nothing that you asserted in that post was accurate. Please provide a link to any reputable news source to support this nonsense. Let's not forget that the jackass Kennedy was also responsible for the Bay of Pigs fiasco. How come they didn't nuke us then?
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
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Re: north korean train wreck [Re: zappaisgod]
#2600186 - 04/25/04 05:51 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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> Nothing that you asserted in that post was accurate.
Primary source is Dark Sun: The Making of the Hydrogen Bomb by Richard Rhodes. Rleased 06 August, 1996 ISBN: 0684824140. I will try to remember and look up page numbers, and quotes, tonight when I get home.
Edit: http://www.thebulletin.org/issues/1995/so95/so95reviews.html
Quote:
Teller's soulmate in the air force, General LeMay, maintained plans throughout the 1950s to conduct his own private, preemptive thermonuclear war against the Soviets. After the United States reached the brink of war during the Cuban missile crisis in October 1962, LeMay's insubordination had reached the point where he had no qualms about defaming his own commander-in-chief, President John F. Kennedy, for failing to destroy the Soviet Union while the United States still held nuclear superiority.
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Just another spore in the wind.
Edited by Seuss (04/25/04 05:54 AM)
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d33p
Welcome to Violence
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Re: north korean train wreck [Re: zappaisgod]
#2602698 - 04/25/04 09:39 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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MacArthur openly admitted wanting to nuke china during the Korean war. It was one of the main reasons he was given the boot.
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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.
bang bang
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
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Re: north korean train wreck [Re: zappaisgod]
#2610680 - 04/28/04 08:10 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Nothing that you asserted in that post was accurate. Please provide a link to any reputable news source to support this nonsense.
General Curtis LeMay was begging Kennedy to nuke Cuba during the Cuban missle crisis. He was certain that Russia couldn't strike back and that an all out offensive starting with Cuba would end communism world wide.
From the mouth of General Curtis LeMay: "The Kennedy administration thought that being strong as we were was provocative to the Russians and likely to start a war. We in the Air Force, and I personally, believed the exact opposite....We could have gotten not only the misiles out of Cuba, we could have gotten the Communists out of Cuba at the time... During that very critical time, in my mind there wasn't a chance that we would have gone to war with Russia because we had overwhelming strategic capability and the Russians knew it."
And more from LeMay during the crisis: "The Russian bear has always been eager to stick his paw in Latin American waters. Now we've got him in a trap, let's take his leg off right up to his testicles. On second thought, let's take off hjis testicles, too."
Also fromt he mouth of General Curtis LeMAy: "it was my belief that at any point theSoviet Union could have been obliterated without more than normal expectable SAC losses on our side..."
Kennedy administration Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara: "LeMay talked openly about a first strike against the Soviet Union"
We just recently found out that Cuba had missles ready to fire at the US and that the USSR had given the field commanders in Cuba permission to launch their nuclear missles if they were attacked. This was the only time in history that the USSR had given their field commanders permission to use nuclear weapons in response to an attack.
Revealed at a conference between Soviet and US missile crisis participants in Moscow in 1989- was that, contrary to CIA estimates, the Soviet forces in Cuba during the missile crisis possessed twenty nuclear warheads for medium-range R-12 ballistic missiles that could be targeted on US cities as far north as Washington, DC, as well as nine tactical nuclear missiles which the Soviet field commanders in Cuba were delegated authority to use- the only time such authority was ever delegated by the Soviet leadership.
Source: Rhodes, Richard. 1995. Dark Sun: The Making of the Hydrogen Bomb pp. 574-576
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Phred
Fred's son
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Re: north korean train wreck [Re: Seuss]
#2610908 - 04/28/04 10:03 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Seuss, I think the point here is Stew248's statement that "their leaders are sane enough to know that no one wins in a nuclear holocaust." The relevant noun here is "leader".
I don't find it impossible to believe that General Curtis LeMay was all gung ho about nuking the missile sites in Cuba. But LeMay was not the leader of the US -- Kennedy was. LeMay could not give the go ahead to launch a nuke. Kennedy could. The military is subservient to the executive in the US. That is not always the case in some other countries, but it has always been that way in the US.
pinky
*edit* wasn't silversoul7 who made that comment about the leaders, it was Stew248
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Edited by pinksharkmark (04/28/04 04:38 PM)
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: north korean train wreck [Re: Phred]
#2611095 - 04/28/04 11:09 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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> LeMay could not give the go ahead to launch a nuke.
Missiles did not have PAL locks in 1962; for safety and control, launch required redundant, coordinated keying by four officers in two physically seperate launch control centers. The Malmstrom work-around overrode that safety system. One officer who controlled the Minutemen during the missile crisis told nuclear safety expert Scott Sagan, "We didn't literally 'hot wire' the launch command system- that would be the wrong analogy- but we did have a second key... I could have launched it on my own, if I had wanted to."
Thomas D. White, USAF Chief of Staff, wrote to General Thomas Power in 1957 that "authority to order retaliatory attack may be exercised by CINCSAC [i.e. Commander-in-chief Strategic Air Command] if time or circumstances would not permit a decision by the President."
McGeorge Bundy, Kennedy's National Security Adviser, warned President Kennedy in January 1961 that "a subordinate commander faced with a substantial Russian military action could start the thermonuclear holocaust on his own initiative if he could not reach you (by failure of cummunication at either end of the line)."
General Thomas Power was CINCSAC during this time; General Curtis LeMay was USAF Chief of Staff. General David Burchinal, LeMay's Deputy Chief for Plans and Operations said, "Those were ten days [during the crisis] that neither Curt nor I went home. We slept in the Pentagon right around the clock. Power was at least as eager to get World War III started as LeMay."
From the mouth of LeMay: "General Power... was demanding; he was mean; he was cruel, unforgiving, and he didn't have the time of day to pass with anyone. A hard, cruel individual... I would like to say this. I used to worry about the fact that he [General Power] had control over so many weaopns and weapon systems and could, under certain conditions, launch the force. Back in the days before we had real positive control [i.e., PAL locks], SAC [Strategic Air Command] had the power to do a lot of things, and it was in his [General Power] hands, and he knew it."
> I don't find it impossible to believe that General Curtis LeMay was all gung ho about nuking the missile sites in Cuba.
Good, because he has admited it himself. He also wasn't alone. A lot of the top military commanders felt that we could win a nuclear war with Russia during this time period.
> But LeMay was not the leader of the US -- Kennedy was. LeMay could not give the go ahead to launch a nuke.
Yes he could. Well, General Power could, who was under General LeMay.
> The military is subservient to the executive in the US.
But the top military commands do not always see eye-to-eye with the president. At this time in our history, the top military commands could have started WWIII without consent from any elected official.
> That is not always the case in some other countries, but it has always been that way in the US.
They would like us to think that so we sleep well at night. It simply isn't the case.
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Just another spore in the wind.
Edited by Seuss (04/28/04 11:25 AM)
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Phred
Fred's son
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Re: north korean train wreck [Re: Seuss]
#2612199 - 04/28/04 03:54 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Missiles did not have PAL locks in 1962...
Fine. Let's agree that more than four decades ago there were ways around the system -- that the safety mechanisms in place then were less sophisticated than the ones today.
The fact remains that even with this looser setup, no leaders (either US, Cuban, or Soviet) gave the orders to launch nuclear missiles.
A lot of the top military commanders felt that we could win a nuclear war with Russia during this time period.
If true, then it's a good thing that the decision to use nukes rested not with the military commanders, but with the leader of the USA -- the president.
But the top military commands do not always see eye-to-eye with the president.
Agreed. What's your point?
At this time in our history, the top military commands could have started WWIII without consent from any elected official.
Could have from a purely technical standpoint due to the way the launch authorization system was set up, yes. Similarly, today any US Navy commander in charge of a carrier group can do an enormous amount of damage using no nukes at all to whichever targeted country he chooses -- certainly enough damage to invite sufficient retaliation to start WWIII. What's your point?
They would like us to think that so we sleep well at night. It simply isn't the case.
It's not? Can you provide for us a credible example of a US military commander initiating hostilities not authorized by the US president? I don't mean advising a president to do so, or grumbling about a decision a US president makes, but one who has actually flouted the wishes of his Commander in Chief by going ahead and initiating a conflict without authorization from the president.
pinky
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
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Re: north korean train wreck [Re: Phred]
#2612315 - 04/28/04 04:27 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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We are going a bit askew here.
The original post said, "There leaders are sane enough to know that no one wins in a nuclear Holocaust."
I wanted to show two things:
1) this has not always been the case
2) it takes a while after one aquires nuclear weapons to realize this
Our leaders today have had decades to think about the effects of nuclear warfare. I agree that they are sane enough to not start a nuclear holocaust. However, in the recent past, our own leaders have felt that a nuclear war could be won. I consider our leaders to be more than just the President. LeMay, Powes, etc were all leaders in their day as much as Powel and Rice are leaders in our day.
There are currently leaders of countries that have nuclear weapons that have not had decades to contemplate the long term ramifications of their use. I have no reason at all to believe that they do not think as LeMay did. If somebody is willing to strap a bomb to their body to make a point, why would they not launch a nuke to make their point as well? I am making a stretch here, but the point is valid none-the-less.
It is a mistake to assume that somebody is sane simply because they are a leader of a country. It is a larger mistake to assume somebody is sane simply because they are a leader of a country with nuclear weapons.
> Can you provide for us a credible example of a US military commander initiating hostilities not authorized by the US president?
Yep... I will even stick with Cuban missile crisis. During the crisis, the US Navy tracked Soviet submarines aggressively throughout the world- forcing them to surface and reveal their positions, a serious provocation - when it had been ordered [by the President] to do so only in the area of quarantine [around Cuba]. (Same source, page 574.)
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