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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Phred]
    #10117596 -

>A shot down missile would have taught the North Koreans only one thing: We mean business.

But now we know what the North Koreans are capable of. We know it failed and fell into the Pacific. We wouldn't have known that if it was shot down.

I bet the Navy is en route to try and recover that missile as we speak.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Cubie]
    #10117840 -

Cubie said:
Quote:
Instead, President Obama has taught the Dear Leader an entirely different set of lessons.

1. We have the means but not the will.

2. We will restrain our allies but not you.

3. You can rely on Russia and China at the UN to thwart even our most feeble efforts to sanction you.

4. We�re big effing idiots.

Thank you, Mr. President. It�s been a most illuminating weekend for Pyongyang and those of us paying attention here at home.



yea... i agree with that. We should have showed NK that we aint fuckin around. They might get a bighead now and try some crazy shit.



Yeah, let's nuke the men and make the women and children our slaves.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: zouden]
    #10123405 -

zouden said:
But now we know what the North Koreans are capable of. We know it failed and fell into the Pacific. We wouldn't have known that if it was shot down.


Are you proposing that it was better to not shoot it down to find out if they were or were not capable of striking Japan, Hawaii, or Alaska? It would have been amusing if you applied the same thinking with the other outcome "But now we know what the North Koreans are capable of. We know it succeeded and decimated Tokyo. We wouldn't have known that if we would have shot it down".
:strokebeard:

If North Korea is capable of lobbing missles well over Japan, I'd only begin to imagine that the United States or Japan would be more than capable of striking every single military target North Korea has without the conspicuousness of pulling up aircraft carriers to North Korea borders. Why do they humor them, but for China?


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: fireworks_god]
    #10123484 -

Is is necessary to have another reason other than china?

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: fireworks_god]
    #10123569 -

Plus, aren't they like very close to seoul?  Like close enough that you cannot strike, as you've suggested, every military piece that is relevant?  I don't know, but it seems likely.



I would imagine they can hide artillery and crap in the trees and whatnot and just pull em out and let em fly.


Not that i know anything about it, but the popular notion is that the North pretty much lives for the day in which they can attack Seoul, so i'd imagine they'd be ready to go if it every looked like they were going to be attacked.  That, and the sheer number of men they have ready to march in would be a problem as well, wouldn't it? 

It just seems inconceivable to the layman that they couldn't respond to anything short of complete and total devastation in a very powerful manner- and surely that wouldn't do to well for the stability of the world.

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: johnm214]
    #10124015 -

Remember that the Korean war is technically still ongoing. There's just a ceasefire been in place since the 50s. I think your analysis is quite accurate.

fireworks_god: I don't think anyone suspected this particular missile of having a warhead on it. The threat is from the fact that they can make missiles, not this missile itself.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Cubie]
    #10142319 -

zouden said:
The best the West can hope for is for the current dictatorship to collapse. I don't know how you go about doing that though.


I think the best thing we can do with North Korea is to encourage the current Korean reunification movement.  It's something most Koreans on both sides have always dreamed about.  It's pretty much a given that a unified Korea would be governed by the western friendly southern Government, as they have the stronger economy.

Not surprisingly under Bush, U.S. accused of standing in way of Korea's reunification (go down to the middle of the page for this article), causing Anti-Bush riots in Korea.  It's almost unreal how bad the Bush administration fucked up international relations and security throughout the world.  That's probably why Obama is being hailed as such a hero right now, not because he's so good at international relations, but just because he's so much better than Bush (who refused to even talk to North Korea!)

Quote:
Phred said:Instead, President Obama has taught the Dear Leader an entirely different set of lessons.

1. We have the means but not the will.

2. We will restrain our allies but not you.

3. You can rely on Russia and China at the UN to thwart even our most feeble efforts to sanction you.

4. We’re big effing idiots.

Thank you, Mr. President. It’s been a most illuminating weekend for Pyongyang and those of us paying attention here at home


North Korea resumed their nuclear program under Bush; please remind us what Bush did to prevent North Korea from getting where they are today.

Quote:
fireworks_god said:Are you proposing that it was better to not shoot it down to find out if they were or were not capable of striking Japan, Hawaii, or Alaska? It would have been amusing if you applied the same thinking with the other outcome "But now we know what the North Koreans are capable of. We know it succeeded and decimated Tokyo. We wouldn't have known that if we would have shot it down".


You gotta be kidding, right???  Why would North Korea nuke Tokyo?  What would they gain other than their own destruction?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10142492 -

No, they did it under Clinton and the watchful eye of that great glorious idiot Madeline Albright.  Why would they nuke Japan?  Who the fuck knows.  As far as I can tell the only reason for anything they do is for the glorification of Dear Leader, a militaristic thug dictator who actively pursues the starvation of his own people.


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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10145102 -

zappaisgod said:
No, they did it (resumed their nuclear program) under Clinton and the watchful eye of that great glorious idiot Madeline Albright.


Can you support that claim?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10145837 -

can you support yours? (either way we'd have proof...lol)

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Mastamike1118]
    #10146267 -

Mastamike1118 said:
can you support yours? (either way we'd have proof...lol)


Zappa made the claim.  Therefore, burden of proof is on him.

If you're not familiar with the "Burden of Proof" fallacy you just committed, here's another example:

Police:  You're the guy who robbed the bank today.
Citizen:  I didn't do it.  What proof do you have?
Police:  I don't need any proof.  You prove you didn't do it.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10146309 -

Actually, you made the claim first.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10146325 -

Bad example:

Quote:
If you're not familiar with the "Burden of Proof" fallacy you just committed, here's another example:

Police:  You're the guy who robbed the bank today.
Citizen:  I didn't do it.  What proof do you have?
Police:  I don't need any proof.  You prove you didn't do it.


The police don't need proof, only probable cause to arrest.  It is up to the prosecutor to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Seuss]
    #10146756 -

wasnt aware of that... these are the type of things i would like to learn from college... the rest is all bullshit and dumb knowledge...

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10147154 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
zappaisgod said:
No, they did it (resumed their nuclear program) under Clinton and the watchful eye of that great glorious idiot Madeline Albright.


Can you support that claim?


http://www.asiasource.org/news/at_mp_02.cfm?newsid=88268
In October of 2002 they announced their secret nuclear program which had been going on for several years but which was supposed to be stopped in accordance with the Agreed Framework negotiated by Clinton and Albright in 1994, which required the NORKs to cease nuclear weapon development in return for lifting of sanctions and some other carrots.  In fact, they never did any such thing.  I do not think that the first 18 months of the Bush administration could have done much after 6 years of Clinton Albright stupidity.


--------------------

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: zouden]
    #10147191 -

zouden said:
Actually, you made the claim first.


My claim was that "North Korea resumed their nuclear program under Bush".

One of my links stated:

Quote:
"It should however be pointed out that during the conversation process on unification, North Korea unilaterally suspended its nuclear arms programme, back in 1994, and in 1999, imposed a unilateral moratorium on missile tests."


If that's not sufficient, here is a Chronology of North Korea's nuclear program:

Quote:
1994
North Korea and the US sign a nuclear agreement in Geneva. North Korea pledges to freeze and eventually dismantle its nuclear weapons program in exchange for international aid to build two power-producing nuclear reactors.

September 1999
North Korea pledges to freeze testing of long-range missiles for the duration of negotiations to improve relations.

June 2001
North Korea warns it will reconsider its moratorium on missile tests if the Bush administration does not resume contacts aimed at normalising relations.

July 2001
The US state department reports North Korea is going ahead with development of its long-range missile.

January 29 2002
Mr Bush labels North Korea, Iran and Iraq an "axis of evil" in his state of the union address.

October 4 2002
North Korean officials tell a visiting US delegation that the country has a second covert nuclear weapons program in violation of the 1994 agreement - a programme using enriched uranium.

October 16 2002
US officials publicly reveal the discovery of North Korea's nuclear weapons programme.

December 12 2002
North Korea announces that it is reactivating nuclear facilities at Yongbyon that were frozen under the 1994 deal with the US.

January 10 2003
North Korea says it will withdraw from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

February 6 2003
North Korea says it has reactivated its nuclear facilities.



--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10147246 -

I suggest reading the link zappa posted.  The claims he makes after the link isn't supported by the article such as the statements:

"which had been going on for several years"
and
"In fact, they never did any such thing."

However, the timeline I posted is supported by the article.



There's plenty more out there as well:

Quote:
Thursday, 22 February 2001
North Korea has warned that it might scrap a moratorium on long-range missile tests to protest what it described as a "hardline" policy by the new US administration.



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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10147387 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
zouden said:
Actually, you made the claim first.


My claim was that "North Korea resumed their nuclear program under Bush".

One of my links stated:

Quote:
"It should however be pointed out that during the conversation process on unification, North Korea unilaterally suspended its nuclear arms programme, back in 1994, and in 1999, imposed a unilateral moratorium on missile tests."



That link is Pravda.  Are you fucking kidding me?
Quote:
If that's not sufficient, here is a Chronology of North Korea's nuclear program:

Quote:
1994
North Korea and the US sign a nuclear agreement in Geneva. North Korea pledges to freeze and eventually dismantle its nuclear weapons program in exchange for international aid to build two power-producing nuclear reactors.

September 1999
North Korea pledges to freeze testing of long-range missiles for the duration of negotiations to improve relations.

June 2001
North Korea warns it will reconsider its moratorium on missile tests if the Bush administration does not resume contacts aimed at normalising relations.

July 2001
The US state department reports North Korea is going ahead with development of its long-range missile.

January 29 2002
Mr Bush labels North Korea, Iran and Iraq an "axis of evil" in his state of the union address.

October 4 2002
North Korean officials tell a visiting US delegation that the country has a second covert nuclear weapons program in violation of the 1994 agreement - a programme using enriched uranium.

October 16 2002
US officials publicly reveal the discovery of North Korea's nuclear weapons programme.

December 12 2002
North Korea announces that it is reactivating nuclear facilities at Yongbyon that were frozen under the 1994 deal with the US.

January 10 2003
North Korea says it will withdraw from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

February 6 2003
North Korea says it has reactivated its nuclear facilities.



That's real nice.  Incomplete but real nice.  From my link above:
Quote:
North Korea admits it has nuclear weapons
April 24, 2003


You don't make that shit in 2 years, child.  They were obviously violating their agreement with Clinton and Albright all along.


--------------------

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10147471 -

> My claim was that "North Korea resumed their nuclear program under Bush".

Your claim is incorrect because it would require that North Korea had stopped their nuclear program at some point prior to Bush.  Even today, North Korea has an active nuclear weapons program, and it hasn't gone idle once since 1962 when they began it.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Korea launched the missile [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10147477 -

Quote:
zappaisgod said:That link is Pravda.  Are you fucking kidding me?


I guess you haven't heard of Perestroika?  Russia is now a free country, and Pravda's news is probably more accurate than Fox.  Regardless, the same information is everywhere.
Quote:
zappaisgod said:You don't make that shit in 2 years, child.  They were obviously violating their agreement with Clinton and Albright all along.


North Korea was working on their nuclear program well before Clinton.  That was the reason Clinton got North Korea to sign the 1994 Geneva nuclear agreement in the first place.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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