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Re: is the universe and isolated/closed system? [Re: MJF]
    #10075027 -

Why are you at fault? Was your intent to hurt? And even if it was did you force him to feel hurt? No, I don't think it's your bad. Unless you are invested in that of course.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: is the universe and isolated/closed system? [Re: Icelander]
    #10075129 -

well even though i said "my bad," i was using it merely as a figure of speech. i don't actually feel bad, but am somewhat sadened(that's too extreme...confused or curious might be a better word) as to how my statement could have influenced his emotions.

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Re: is the universe and isolated/closed system? [Re: Rahz]
    #10075159 -

Rahz...

that video is making my brain hurt.

i like the last statement...

Quote:
in string theory, physicists tell us that super strings, vibrating in the 10th dimension, are what create the sub-atomic particles which make up our universe, and all of the other possible universes as well. in other words, all possibilities are contained within the 10th deminsion.


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Re: is the universe and isolated/closed system? [Re: DieCommie]
    #10075174 -

Qubit said:
Quote:
we're talking about scientific terminology.


They dont like science much here in the philosophy forum, and dont ascribe to scientific definitions.  It confuses me alot (and is a little annoying) but its not a science forum so people arnt gonna be using scientific definitions.  :shrug:


Philosophy and science are not mutually exclusive, ya know.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: is the universe and isolated/closed system? [Re: MJF]
    #10075217 -

The universe is a tiny, sequestered blob of order in a vast, limitless black void of Chaos.  :wink:

It's not unusual for some Chaos to leak in through the cracks in the blob.


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Re: is the universe and isolated/closed system? [Re: sterbeklang]
    #10075270 -

sterbeklang said:
The universe is a tiny, sequestered blob of order in a vast, limitless black void of Chaos.  :wink:

It's not unusual for some Chaos to leak in through the cracks in the blob.



that's bothers me for some reason.

what exactly would a black void of Chaos be?

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Re: is the universe and isolated/closed system? [Re: MJF]
    #10075344 -

MJF said:
sterbeklang said:
The universe is a tiny, sequestered blob of order in a vast, limitless black void of Chaos.  :wink:

It's not unusual for some Chaos to leak in through the cracks in the blob.



that's bothers me for some reason.

what exactly would a black void of Chaos be?



:shrug:  I have no idea... and if I did it probably couldn't be put into words.


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Re: is the universe and isolated/closed system? [Re: deCypher]
    #10075383 -

deCypher said:
Qubit said:
Quote:
we're talking about scientific terminology.


They dont like science much here in the philosophy forum, and dont ascribe to scientific definitions.  It confuses me alot (and is a little annoying) but its not a science forum so people arnt gonna be using scientific definitions.  :shrug:


Philosophy and science are not mutually exclusive, ya know.


In reference to research or method, they can be.

There are scientific questions philosophy cannot answer.
There are philosophic questions science cannot answer.
And, there are mixed questions which require both fields of inquiry.


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Re: is the universe and isolated/closed system? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10075412 -

I guess I see science more as a tool or methodology that the philosopher can follow when exploring the empirical realm.  Philosophy should be concerned both with conceptual analysis into the inner realm (mind) and with exploration of the external realm and its makeup.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: is the universe an isolated/closed system? [Re: MJF]
    #10075419 -

Ped provided the answer.  Do you have any ancillary questions?


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Re: is the universe and isolated/closed system? [Re: deCypher]
    #10075458 -

>I guess I see science more as a tool or methodology that the philosopher can follow when exploring the empirical realm.

Those would be mixed questions.

>Philosophy should be concerned both with conceptual analysis into the inner realm (mind) and with exploration of the external realm and its makeup.

Fortunately, philosophy is much more than that, e.g. its categorical dimension.  I really should create a thread explaining the virtues and breadth of philosophy.  With procrastination and laziness always barking at my door its a wonder I post at all.


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Re: is the universe an isolated/closed system? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10075589 -

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Ped provided the answer.  Do you have any ancillary questions?


he did. and i gave him a +5 shroom rating for that. i just wish i could edit wiki's page on isolated systems but there isn't an "edit" link for me on that section...

Quote:
Wikipedia.org says:Truly isolated physical systems do not exist in reality (except for the universe as a whole), because, for example, there is always gravity between a system with mass and masses elsewhere. However, real systems may behave nearly as an isolated system for finite (possibly very long) times. The concept of an isolated system can serve as a useful model approximating many real-world situations. It is an acceptable idealization used in constructing mathematical models of certain natural phenomena; e.g., the Sun and planets in our solar system, and the proton and electron in a hydrogen atom are often treated as isolated systems. But from time to time, a hydrogen atom will interact with electromagnetic radiation and go to an excited state.


my guess is someone snuck that in there...or did they modify their term so that it could fit with their model?

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Re: is the universe and isolated/closed system? [Re: MJF]
    #10076825 -

MJF said:
sterbeklang said:
The universe is a tiny, sequestered blob of order in a vast, limitless black void of Chaos.  :wink:

It's not unusual for some Chaos to leak in through the cracks in the blob.



that's bothers me for some reason.

what exactly would a black void of Chaos be?


I could imagine it being a place where existence is mocked:
A dark basement in the house of logical explanation,
where the outline of a cousin we once knew laughs from a distance,
with his strangely familiar scowl.
But more overpowering than a vain grasp at our lost identity
is the fluidity in the expanse of our surroundings,
being drowned out by the howling hunger of nothingness,
and put away forever,
like a box full of childish things,
to be forgotten among the towering pillars
who struggle to gain a desperate foothold
on the crag of reason.

Edited by Swyfty Swyf (03/31/09 09:04 AM)

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Re: is the universe and isolated/closed system? [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
    #10078672 -

Swyfty Swyf said:
MJF said:
sterbeklang said:
The universe is a tiny, sequestered blob of order in a vast, limitless black void of Chaos.  :wink:

It's not unusual for some Chaos to leak in through the cracks in the blob.



that's bothers me for some reason.

what exactly would a black void of Chaos be?


I could imagine it being a place where existance is mocked.
Because when you have been there,
you could easily handpick any memory from your life,
as if it was just as colorful as the day it occured,
but what is more important than your private, fading memories
is the reality of your surroundings,
being drowned out by the howling lack of reason,
and put away forever,
like a box full of childish things,
to be forgotten,
as if they ever actually existed



It would be most easily described as being "everything and nothing" all at once.  The nothingness establishes it firmly as non-creation and therefore non-universe.  The cool paradox about primordial Chaos is that even though you do not exist in a solidified conscious form, you can have anything you want because anything is possible.  It makes no sense because there is no limitation.  :crazy2:


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Re: is the universe and isolated/closed system? [Re: MJF]
    #10083463 -

MJF said:
help me do what exactly? why do you want to stay out of my thread?



He was helping you understand that closed system didn't mean the same thing to you as to most in this forum.  That to you it was a specific definition and to mushroom trip it was the common definition of closed and the common definition of system.


Then when he informed you of the likely problem you wre having in communicating you responded with an irrelevancy that bordered on equivocating- which likely annoyed qubit.


:mypleasure:



I think mushroom trip's first language is something else too, so she may not have recotgnized "closed system" to be a scientific concept- though i doubt many native english speakers would.

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Re: is the universe and isolated/closed system? [Re: deCypher]
    #10084753 -

deCypher said:
Qubit said:
Quote:
we're talking about scientific terminology.


They dont like science much here in the philosophy forum, and dont ascribe to scientific definitions.  It confuses me alot (and is a little annoying) but its not a science forum so people arnt gonna be using scientific definitions.  :shrug:


Philosophy and science are not mutually exclusive, ya know.




It doesn't matter and wasn't neccesary for qubit's point to be valid.


People where not using the term "closed system" as it means scientifically but rather the sum of two general definitions of these words.  Qubit explained this and appears correct. 

And in general I think science and philosophy certainly aren't equivalent, which is all that is neccesary to observe the differences.


I think valid philosophy should use scientific analysis (logic), its just in philosophy you don't have ways to neccesarily do experiments and observe and so you replace that data with assumptions.  Just as valid, but certainly not the same thing as science.





As to the original question:  Doesn't the definition of the universe imply that it is a closed system?  Doesn't the universe enclose all the matter and energy into a localized blob?  If that's what the universe is then any traveling matter and energy couldn't leave the universe.


I think you said the universe needs to be defined first.  Did you ever do that?

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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