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Invisiblexganon
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Registered: 10/11/02
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cough syrup and my symbol system
    #1085104 - 11/25/02 07:34 PM (14 years, 14 days ago)

What does "understand" mean?

First, the implicit 'thing' being understood is a pattern in one's sensory impressions.

Understanding that pattern means being able to replicate it with a model.

This model is constructed of language. English, right?

Not if you drink 150 bottles of Robitussin. I may have had this trait for a long time and simply learned to use it dexing, but there's another layer below language. Language is used to 'hook into' this layer of meta-language. I improvies private symbol-systems to hook into this better. Sometimes I can work with it directly. This is incredibly useful when dealing with data-relationships (understanding how all the patterns (things) fit together and interact). I remember doing this when I was young and calling it "visualization", even though there are no pictures involved.

The entities I have been contacted by on high doses of DXM communicated with me through this layer directly.

This may be not be a rare occurance. I have read reports of DXM allowing one to glimpse the "assembly language" of one's own brain. Any similar experiences?


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OfflineGrav
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Re: cough syrup and my symbol system [Re: xganon]
    #1085116 - 11/25/02 07:39 PM (14 years, 14 days ago)

Do weird archaic symbols flash through your head with every symbol muttered, and you somehow make split-second associations with each symbol, and it ties into a perfectly understood phrasing of some sort...?

That happened to me when I was rolling really hard at Harvest Fest and drank like a 1/4 gallon of really potent ganja milk...
My friend was spouting out all this nonsensical jibbery... But I could feel it all.. Like I felt the emotion he was putting out, and I was able to make some sort of lingual sense out of it....



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Invisiblexganon
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Re: cough syrup and my symbol system [Re: Grav]
    #1085147 - 11/25/02 07:49 PM (14 years, 14 days ago)

Did you try encrypting anything in this language? Weed makes me see the connections everywhere. I hear music in computer fan noise. The music's always there, but I only listen to the right parts when I'm high. Free-association is great. Not constraining one's mind to language is a good habit.


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OfflineGrav
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Re: cough syrup and my symbol system [Re: Grav]
    #1085254 - 11/25/02 08:36 PM (14 years, 14 days ago)

It was too overwhelming to do anything but sit, watch, and listen.


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Offlinemachineelf368
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Re: cough syrup and my symbol system [Re: xganon]
    #1086136 - 11/26/02 01:04 AM (14 years, 14 days ago)

I don't remember ever experiencing meta-language myself, but I've read about it. Terence Mckenna and John Lilly both spoke of it, although in different terms. McKenna's idea was something along the lines that language can be represented visually during a trip. We humans are much more visually sensitive than aurally sensitive, so if we translate language into a visual system we can "speak" much more eloquently and complexly and directly. McK also believed that the universe was composed not of atoms but of language. If we can complexify language by visualizing it we can complexify the world. So you're making the world a better place every time you dex!

Lilly, on the other hand, said that words are representations of ideas, and if you get really deep into the programs and metaprograms of your biocomputer (his name for your brain/mind), you can interact directly with these ideas. You move past their representations. I've found personally that Lilly's ideas are by far the most explanatory when I'm in DXM states. Lilly came up with all these far-out ideas of metaprogramming and internal simulations and interspecies communication when he was in the sensory deprivation tanks he invented. These things dissociate the mind from the body. What's the main effect of DXM? (Besides an aversion to cherry-flavored candy) The same thing. Next time you encounter this, see if you can interact with it. It might open up a whole new channel inside you.
-m


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(the above was deciphered from phi (~1.62) using an advanced alphanumeric conversion algorhythm and should not be perceived as meaningful.)


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OfflineFcuerkt
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Re: cough syrup and my symbol system [Re: machineelf368]
    #1086218 - 11/26/02 01:33 AM (14 years, 14 days ago)

Wow, now I really want to dex.

This all makes a lot of sense. People who know Sanscrit are capable of having much more complex thoughts, because our minds are so deeply rooted in the semantic (5th) circuit. Sanscrit is much more complex than English and other current languages, I would imagine the infinite and spectral complexity of images and thought would yield infinte and spectral ideas. Wowza.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: cough syrup and my symbol system [Re: xganon]
    #1086288 - 11/26/02 02:12 AM (14 years, 14 days ago)

Ideas are meta-language... I noticed long ago (as a child) that I couldn't articulate the thoughts in my head. There were patterns there that made sense to me, but I couldn't communicate them because I had yet to encounter the words for them (some of them still don't have words).

I'm not exactly sure why this concept must be necessarily linked with drugs. The beginner's mind is what is actually responsible for such realizations. If drugs helped pull some of the veils away... great. But they only HELPED... you have to do the rest. Drugs have no will.


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Anonymous

Re: cough syrup and my symbol system [Re: xganon]
    #1088262 - 11/26/02 06:36 PM (14 years, 13 days ago)

Have you read any Noam Chomsky?


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Invisiblexganon
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Re: cough syrup and my symbol system [Re: ]
    #1091274 - 11/27/02 04:19 PM (14 years, 13 days ago)

I read a article and a half of his this morning. The subject matter ("world events") was of little interest. His writing seemed good and he at least appears intelligent, though.


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Invisiblexganon
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Re: cough syrup and my symbol system [Re: Sclorch]
    #1091275 - 11/27/02 04:20 PM (14 years, 13 days ago)

Drugs can't get high, either.

Is "the beginner's mind" meant literally or is some deeper meaning intended. If it's a term of yours, please explain it, as it sounds fruitful.

Also, I think most people think mostly in words and only 'have' ideas which can be corrosponded with words. This is vocal, I think. I vocalize things I type as random short hummed single notes, one for each keypress. It usually maps to the letter, but sometimes not. Sometimes it only makes the vowel sound of a syllable. This is imagined or subvocalized in breathing (no actual sound is made).

Deep, slow breathing becomes natural when stoned. Fixing things (heavy computer stuff especially) makes me feel lightly dissociated (the body feeling like a avatar controlled from Void) with no impairment. I respond to posts whenever I'm able to write something novel. If there are no new ideas (for someone involved) in a post I'm writing I don't send it.


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Edited by xganon (11/27/02 04:30 PM)


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Invisiblexganon
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Re: cough syrup and my symbol system [Re: Grav]
    #1091333 - 11/27/02 04:40 PM (14 years, 13 days ago)

This isn't a communications thing. It's broken my speech even more. I get used to having my own private dynamic symbol system with clean sensory handles for things. It's hard to translate this into linear verbalization, especially when some of the 'elements' need a paragraph footnoted to describe the process from which I derived them. Writing's difficult too (though not as severely). So many ideas coming so fast that I can't hold onto them for long enough to build grammar around them. This ability has fixed enough routers to be worth the trade in terms of practicality though.

This process doesn't play well with memory. It comes in flashes and does not appear compatible with short-term memory.


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Invisiblexganon
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Re: cough syrup and my symbol system [Re: Fcuerkt]
    #1091350 - 11/27/02 04:50 PM (14 years, 13 days ago)

Playing with the constants in my language centers is fun. Assigning trust (fuzzy boolean gradient) to everything, even memories and stuff in my working memory.

Languages are third-circuit imprints (Prometheus Rising is a good book). Some people get more visual than linguistic imprintation and think in pictures. There must be some cool extremes there. Maybe all the cough syrup I did broke those imprints. Imprints act as restraints alone. Instead of/same thing as directly encouraging behavior they lock out the opposite. Ripping out all imprints means having all possible imprints (no difference between the data-mesh of the two states (all-imprints no-imprints; all relationships between the two sets of undefined data are equal proving them equal). That was a cool comeup.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: cough syrup and my symbol system [Re: Fcuerkt]
    #1091369 - 11/27/02 04:57 PM (14 years, 13 days ago)

yes our entire objective world is made of language, because without communication, there really can't be an objectivity among us.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Invisiblexganon
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Re: cough syrup and my symbol system [Re: machineelf368]
    #1091423 - 11/27/02 05:14 PM (14 years, 13 days ago)

I invented the term myself (after secondhand exposure to Lilly's metaprogramming book which I'm going to start re-reading (never finished the first time) tonight). It was originally intended to describe the language which aliens spoke in. I remember having a thought while on 16 ounces of cough syrup and grokking the thought's source code (seeing = sensory understanding = cognitive grokking = higher consciousness (metaprogramming circuit?)). The code's multi-dimensional forms had differentiating fractal complexity. I don't remember much more from that experience. I have a shared pool of DXM memories. There are relationships between them, but they are not arranged into specific 'trips' or indexed. Like sensory impression (before it's turned to memory).

I will finish (reread from the beginning actually) Lilly's book now.

DXM explains everything for me. I gain the system of no-system with which I can handle any event with machine-like precision. Liquid Zen (used in the popular sense but unknown whether matches with the Zen Buddhist sense will occur).

This makes DXM enlightenment 'real' for me somehow. Ordinary feelings are seen as shallow because other feelings can overried them. DXM is God. Only Deeath beats God. Sure, each feeling has a independant intensity value which makes it fight harder, but the DXM state's innate strength makes it a good choice of vantage point anyways. No matter how bad things are, I can always find some DXM and feel exactly how I want to. Depression/pessimism ranks negative viewpoints as more 'real' than positive ones because pain cancels out pleasure. Pleasure cancels out pain, but pain has a evil little memory-hook which makes it likelier to be latched onto. Maybe many people have the hook in pleasure instead. I don't know most people.


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Invisiblexganon
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Re: cough syrup and my symbol system [Re: Strumpling]
    #1091489 - 11/27/02 05:39 PM (14 years, 13 days ago)

Objectivity and subjectivity switch places easily.

Objective = true for all
Subjective = true for one

See the relationship?

These words apply this relationship as so:

Objective = true for everyone and everything
Subjective = true for one person

Since all-inclusive sets include all potentiality (including the inverses of everything etc) the first definition is broke. We won't got here right now though.

However, there is another tense.

Humans call their current understanding of things (understanding being translation to meta-language) 'objective'. They develop 'understandings' (explanations) for other's minds/understandings and if those alien forms don't jibe with the human's the human calls them 'subjective' (only within the other's mind).

Objectivity-subjectivity becomes a full partial-infinity mesh. Every understanding is the 'objective' for a single 'subjective' of all other understandings.

So there is no objective. OK, we went there.

Some use a different meaning for objective. They use it to mean the "consensus". Others use it to mean "the consensus derived by certain rules" (science).

I need to rethink the stuff about language being difficultified by pure understanding ('meta-language'). DXM makes me very very good at writing about these. Isn't writing about them just another form of implementing them? If they aren't implemented at some level (even memory), what differentiates them from the non-existextant?


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Anonymous

Re: cough syrup and my symbol system [Re: xganon]
    #1091644 - 11/27/02 07:08 PM (14 years, 12 days ago)

"Objective = true for everyone and everything
Subjective = true for one person

Since all-inclusive sets include all potentiality (including the inverses of everything etc) the first definition is broke. We won't got here right now though."

By all means let's not gloss over that statement. I want to know how it is broke and how we can fix it.

Continue, I'm spellbound.

Oh, and unless you want me to ask serious questions about every single sentence that you write I suggest you try to dumb down your ideas. Distill them so that all can see whether you are talking nonsense or not.

Thanks


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: cough syrup and my symbol system [Re: ]
    #1091694 - 11/27/02 07:27 PM (14 years, 12 days ago)

Oh yeah, he's the guy who gets the meanings of words all confused. Wait...that's Norm Crosby. Never mind.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: cough syrup and my symbol system [Re: xganon]
    #1091705 - 11/27/02 07:31 PM (14 years, 12 days ago)

Hey-y-y-y...didn't Woody Allen and Diane Keaton have this very discussion in the film 'Love and Death' (on vodka, not cough medicine)?


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblexganon
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Re: cough syrup and my symbol system [Re: ]
    #1091737 - 11/27/02 07:46 PM (14 years, 12 days ago)

"Objective = true for everyone and everything
Subjective = true for one person

Since all-inclusive sets include all potentiality (including the inverses of everything etc) the first definition is broke. We won't got here right now though."

I think I was assuming that "everyone and everything" was infinite and therefore included all possibilities, even those which contradicted it. The place where I "wasn't going to go" was 6 lines up to write a better definition. Here's one.

Objective = true for a entity which is filled in by the mind interpreting the objective/subjective comparison.

I was talking DXM peak. The words were only a small part of the fireworks going off in my head. If very many people get annoyed at the more nonsensical stuff I'll try not to post it (and therefore post less).

Ask all the questions you like. I make much more of a conscious effort to be intelligible when responding to questions, while in these posts I was dangerously close to another brush with Enlightenment. There are many treasures which are only found in this space however, and they may be of use to others as well as myself.

In other words, posting while intoxicated may sometimes produce unintelligible nonsense, but it can also produce some beautiful stuff, so the trade may be worth it.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: cough syrup and my symbol system [Re: xganon]
    #1092169 - 11/27/02 10:19 PM (14 years, 12 days ago)

My only point was that aside from language, there's no way for ME to verify that my SUBJECTIVE perceptions aren't hallucinations unless I actually communicate them to somebody else and have them verified.

-=- Matt/Strumpling -=-
no?


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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