Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]
Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny
    #9652074 -

Philosophically the most interesting concept on my mind at the moment concerns human spirit in regards to genetics, and the nature and scope of these two themes.

There is a movie i absolutely love called Gattaca released in 1997 staring Jude Law, Ethan Hawke, and Uma Thurman. The reason i enjoy this movie so much is not simply because of its entertainment value, but because of its depth and content, which is underscored by the films tagline:

"there is no gene for the human spirit".

In its entirety the film is not overwhelmingly philosophical, easy to follow, and the themes within it literally launch out of the television and grab you by the short and curly. The movie has precluded my thoughts which i will now express.

After Watson and Crick co-discovered DNA, there seems to have been an upsurge of human arrogance masquerading in the form of knowledge. DNA settled much of the mystery concerning biological heredity and inheritance, but have somehow gone beyond the facts and have began to punctuate everything in regards to genetics and heritability; height, weight, disease, temperament, and eye-color among other biological and nonbiological traits have already been ascribed to and blamed on individual DNA.

Although we have empirical evidence showing many of these traits to be factual and true, we seem to have leaped ahead of ourselves and begin to ascribe heredity to abstract concepts like justice, intelligence, drive, and purpose. In addition, it has been suggested that there is a "God-gene" that pushes us unknowingly toward or away from spirituality.

The movie i mentioned is important because it deals philosophically with certain aspects of determination and the relationship between biology, purpose, and spirituality. In the film the main character played by Hawke is born into a future society where genetics are used to predetermine the characteristics of the child. Unfortunately, Hawke was born without the enhancements, and to the contrary, with a heart defect that stated he would not live beyond thirty. He grows up with a brother who is the exact opposite and whom benefited from the genetic prebirth technology, and whom is considered by society to be perfect in every way. The movie plows forward when Hawke realizes he wants to become an astronaut, but knows his genes and society forbid it because he is a "faith birth" or "in-valid".

So not only are genetics part of the moral theme, but also the notion of eugenics and philosophical destiny.

Your thoughts?


--------------------
No trees were harmed in the writing of this signature; however, millions of electrons were mildly inconvenienced.

Edited by AnxietyDrive (01/22/09 08:17 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: AnxietyDrive]
    #9652125 -

Gattaca is one of my favorite movies, though I felt the director could have done much more with it.  (I wonder how many people understand the significance of the movie's title?)

IMO, the information derived from the HGP and other projects has been entirely misunderstood.  Rather than grasping the idea of genetic potential, the public has latched on to the idea of genetic destiny.  Our blueprint is the starting point for the individual we will become, not the end point.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: AnxietyDrive]
    #9652213 -

Quote:
"there is no gene for the human spirit".



I prefer the shortened version: "There is no human spirit."


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9652223 -

I have team spirit.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: Indigenous]
    #9652763 -

Doesn't the name represent the elements or configuration of typical DNA or something. I saw in in grade 9 science and loved it.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: sirjeth]
    #9653696 -

i think genetics can be transcended.

although i am a determinist, i don't think that dna determines our fate.

of course there is a human spirit.


--------------------
I am Jack's inflamed sense of rejection.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: Desos]
    #9653715 -

I am the ghost in the machine.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: sirjeth]
    #9657210 -

Hmmm, I wonder if any of the genes I work with contain the sequence 'gattaca'. I'll do a search tomorrow :smile:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: zouden]
    #9657265 -

I liked the film

I agree that some popular science sometimes goes too far in its evolutionary generalisations


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9657445 -

Loved the movie, but isn't our society the same? Aren't we all convinced that we are limited by our genes and thus will not even try to achieve anything that will go beyond our limits? "I can't help it that I'm stupid..  it's my genes!"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: Diaboleros]
    #9657688 -

Diaboleros said:
Aren't we all convinced that we are limited by our genes and thus will not even try to achieve anything that will go beyond our limits? "I can't help it that I'm stupid..  it's my genes!"


No, not all. Maybe some, but I really don't know much about what they think. :shrug:
Do you?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9658992 -

MushroomTrip said:
Diaboleros said:
Aren't we all convinced that we are limited by our genes and thus will not even try to achieve anything that will go beyond our limits? "I can't help it that I'm stupid..  it's my genes!"


No, not all. Maybe some, but I really don't know much about what they think. :shrug:
Do you?


You can get pretty good insight from people watching, and when you look deeply enough, the truth is reveled.


--------------------
No trees were harmed in the writing of this signature; however, millions of electrons were mildly inconvenienced.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: AnxietyDrive]
    #9659020 -

Quote:
and when you look deeply enough, the truth is reveled.


I love a good tautology. :yesnod:


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: AnxietyDrive]
    #9659075 -

AnxietyDrive said:
You can get pretty good insight from people watching, and when you look deeply enough, the truth is reveled.


Yes, but even so, it still represents a tiny percentage of all the people. More to that, there's always the possibility that one might be seeing more into it.
Also, if you're really looking for something, chances are that you find it - if you're looking for people who think like that, your attention is already focusing on selecting exactly that particular kind of individuals out of the crowd


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9659184 -

MushroomTrip said:
AnxietyDrive said:
You can get pretty good insight from people watching, and when you look deeply enough, the truth is reveled.


Yes, but even so, it still represents a tiny percentage of all the people. More to that, there's always the possibility that one might be seeing more into it.
Also, if you're really looking for something, chances are that you find it - if you're looking for people who think like that, your attention is already focusing on selecting exactly that particular kind of individuals out of the crowd


I agree that things are easily over analyzed, and that people often project their feelings onto others; but if we put it all into context, this is the reality we all live -- this is the context by which we make all our assumptions and judgments.

I have met people who are genuinely insightful, and who have somehow stepped outside the box of preconception. Who have, for the moment, dissolved their personal bias.

I do agree that it is impossible to judge everyone, but i do think we can intuit a general observation of the whole, by looking at the cultural context the judged is enmeshed within.


--------------------
No trees were harmed in the writing of this signature; however, millions of electrons were mildly inconvenienced.

Edited by AnxietyDrive (01/22/09 02:09 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny *DELETED* [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9659240 -

Post deleted by Veritas

Reason for deletion: Personal remarks may be communicated via PM, but not on this board.



--------------------
No trees were harmed in the writing of this signature; however, millions of electrons were mildly inconvenienced.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: AnxietyDrive]
    #9659250 -

I think that we will need a kind of eugenics program or genetic engineering program if for our descendents to have any hope of leaving this planet. In order to leave, we will need a circulatory system that can operate under a wide range of pressures, including vacuum, a body able to sustain large amounts of radiation damage and other adaptations for space travel. Since humans mature sexually very late compared to most other life forms on this planet, we evolve proportionally more slowly. So to make the leap to become space faring we will have to heavily modify our bodies so we can survive out there.

Otherwise I don't see much point in genetic engineering, since we already are well adapted to survive in our current environment.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #9659286 -

Can we fly or live under water? Do we have X-ray vision? Can we send our thoughts to someone who's not at the same location with us, without using a telephone or the internet or the like? :sherlock:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9659301 -

Yeah we don't need to evolve to do that when we can build technology to do it for us. We can already go into space even though we can't survive raw vacuum or radiation.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: zouden]
    #9659340 -

I disagree. If it is going to take at least thousands of years to reach a nearby star, it is much simpler if we don't have to maintain a special environment inside the craft. Animals at first weren't well equipped to go from the ocean to land... millions of years worth of mutations were nessecary. The same can be said of space, I think. Only we don't have to wait 100 million years, we could probably do it in 1000 if not less.

This will greatly, greatly simplify interstellar travel.

This planet sucks anyway. We should just get over it and go explore for a better one.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #9659364 -

It might even mean getting rid of the body altogether and simply attaching a brain to the controls of a machine. Isn't that how a cochlear implant works?

Bottom line is our body is a huge liability in space. It's great down here on earth but it's not adapted to space. Genetic engineering could solve that.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #9659375 -

I agree, but a better solution is suspended animation. Just freeze the crew for the journey and let computers handle the whole thing, then thaw everyone out when you arrive.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: zouden]
    #9659411 -

But you aren't likely to find a planet similar to our own anyway. You could freeze the crew, but they are still regular humans when they reach the destination.

There is no point having a body that is specialized to survive on a one of a kind planet. Needs to be tougher and able to survive a wide variety of environments. That just makes sense if you want to maximize the chance of successful colony and eliminate the need for special climate control inside the ship.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #9659429 -

Yes, that's true. I think a combination of terraforming and genetic engineering would make colonising distance planets much more feasible :awesome:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: zouden]
    #9659528 -

Women might evolve larger breasts as a way to block radiation. And we could rig their body so when they fuck it cleanses them of toxic space dust, that way it would be easier to score since all the men in space will obviously be extreme nerds.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #9659546 -

Also since we'll need to build up a colony once we reach the planet, we will need plenty of women to procreate. I suggest a ratio of ten women to every man.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: zouden]
    #9659630 -

Cool your fantasy. It will be ten women to a vial of sperm.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9659666 -

I think I've seen that movie :naughty:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: zouden]
    #9659692 -

When there is a large enough store of seed, men will become superfluous. Well, we still might be needed to mow the lawn or open a pickle jar...


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: Veritas]
    #9659861 -

(I wonder how many people understand the significance of the movie's title?)

I don't, and am curious to know without digging through pages of movie info. Would you be so kind as to enlighten me on this one?


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9659879 -

Actually two women have all the necessary genetic material to artificially fertilize each others and produce healthy girl off-spring. No need for seed bank if you have the technology.

X + X ---> XX
X + Y ---> XY
Y + Y ---> DOA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenetic

Edited by deimya (01/22/09 04:12 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: deimya]
    #9659966 -

X+X  :dancer:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: Indigenous]
    #9660930 -

i think that genetic engineering is immoral.


--------------------
I am Jack's inflamed sense of rejection.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: Desos]
    #9660979 -

You just have a mild propaganda deficiency.
http://www.monsanto.com/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: Indigenous]
    #9662272 -

Indigenous said:
You just have a mild propaganda deficiency.
http://www.monsanto.com/


:lol::thumbup:

good response


--------------------
No trees were harmed in the writing of this signature; however, millions of electrons were mildly inconvenienced.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: Desos]
    #9662717 -

Desos said:
i think that genetic engineering is immoral.


I think genetic engineering is immoral like every fucking other thing we do in our developed world

ie. not to worry about


--------------------

Edited by Noteworthy (01/22/09 11:44 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9663052 -

I'm not buying this.
How is it immoral and why?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: zouden]
    #9663053 -

zouden said:
Yeah we don't need to evolve to do that when we can build technology to do it for us. We can already go into space even though we can't survive raw vacuum or radiation.


I don't think that, if we have the technology for this, we wouldn't actually benefit from a mutation in which our bodies would allow us to live under water, fly, and survive radiation. It's one step closer to self-reliance. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: zouden]
    #9663089 -

zouden said:
Hmmm, I wonder if any of the genes I work with contain the sequence 'gattaca'. I'll do a search tomorrow :smile:


I looked, but 'gattaca' doesn't appear in any of the genes I work with. Awww.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: zouden]
    #9663617 -

The name "Gattaca" is composed entirely of the letters used to label the nucleotide bases of DNA. The four nitrogen bases of DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid) are adenine, thymine, cytosine, and guanine.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: Indigenous]
    #9663797 -

Thank you for the explaination. :thumbup:


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9663916 -

MushroomTrip said:
I'm not buying this.
How is it immoral and why?


Probably because it puts existing humans at risk of becoming obsolete, or some thought along those line, I'm guessing.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: AnxietyDrive]
    #9664250 -

I forgot to reply to this :grin:

Quote:
I agree that things are easily over analyzed, and that people often project their feelings onto others; but if we put it all into context, this is the reality we all live -- this is the context by which we make all our assumptions and judgments.


Generally speaking, yes.
However, there are better or poorer guesses. That statement sounded to me like a gross over-generalization, because, as anyone who says things like "Aren't we all convinced that we are limited by our genes and thus will not even try to achieve anything that will go beyond our limits? "I can't help it that I'm stupid..  it's my genes!" are kind of just not knowing what they're talking about.
Of course, I might be wrong, but I think it is a wise decision not to make such firm statements as this one.

Quote:
I have met people who are genuinely insightful, and who have somehow stepped outside the box of preconception. Who have, for the moment, dissolved their personal bias.


Me too, but from meeting people who did that, to simply thinking that this is the case with this particular statement, is just a long ass way to go. :lol:

Quote:
I do agree that it is impossible to judge everyone, but i do think we can intuit a general observation of the whole, by looking at the cultural context the judged is enmeshed within.


I think that what we're noticing is still just a tiny bit of how all the people are actually thinking and feeling. From my own experience, I have rarely heard people making statements as these, regarding their DNA. I might have not looked for this kind of people though, which brings me back to the point that we usually see what we're looking for.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9664513 -

Indeed.


--------------------
No trees were harmed in the writing of this signature; however, millions of electrons were mildly inconvenienced.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Gattaca, Genetics, Eugenics, and Destiny [Re: AnxietyDrive]
    #18211204 -

i just saw this movie and thought it was awesome:thumbup:


--------------------
You can drink at 7 A.M., because the Beastie Boys fought for that right
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
pons asinorum
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
lsd and the vietnam war changed music forever

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]

Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* A genetic basis for the inferior intelligence of most humans
( 1 2 3 4 all )		 trendalM 4,835 64 06/28/07 01:36 PM
by MushmanTheManic
* Eugenics
( 1 2 3 all )		 daimyo 3,628 40 05/23/14 07:11 AM
by LunarEclipse
* DNA, demons, and destiny... (or how to obtain a sense of purpose in nihilistic times)
( 1 2 3 4 all )		 deCypher 4,563 76 12/04/08 09:26 AM
by Icelander
* Destiny and Free Will - complimentary? Mystical_Craven 2,376 17 09/08/02 09:22 PM
by Calen
* Genetic Engineering: Ramifications to life on Earth
( 1 2 all )		 Viveka 2,671 27 02/14/04 07:14 PM
by Viaggio
* Eugenics TODAY 2,169 18 05/19/06 11:36 PM
by Anonymous
* Freewill vs. Destiny
( 1 2 3 4 all )		 primativezen 6,233 73 04/23/08 09:41 PM
by Icelander
* Destiny Revelation 1,634 11 08/23/01 01:02 AM
by tak

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
4,664 topic views. 2 members, 142 guests and 43 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.038 seconds spending 0.01 seconds on 16 queries.