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Invisibleawesomebastard
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: primativezen]
    #8297292 - 04/17/08 07:50 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

You have no choice only the illusion of one.


--------------------
"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser



Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."


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OfflineJoseLibrado
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: awesomebastard]
    #8297470 - 04/17/08 08:26 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Try to will yourself to imagine a color that you have never experienced.

Try to will yourself to imagine the sound of an animal you have never experienced.

Do this without mixing in already experienced phenomena - at all - then ask yourself if your will is unbound.


The way i have come to gather about out will - is that it is both unlimited and limited.

Eternal Limit. Constantly changing Limit.


--------------------
The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution.

And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change.

Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems.

Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: JoseLibrado]
    #8297671 - 04/17/08 09:07 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Try to will yourself to imagine the sound of an animal you have never experienced.





Areeeee-k-k-k ng bznok!


--------------------


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8297699 - 04/17/08 09:13 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Sounds like some kind of strange bird alien hybrid.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #8297709 - 04/17/08 09:14 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Do I win a prize? :birthday:


--------------------


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8297710 - 04/17/08 09:15 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Nope. Your fate is sealed!  :paladin:


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Offlineprimativezen
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #8298264 - 04/17/08 11:02 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

haha nice


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #8300332 - 04/18/08 12:09 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

AlteredAgain said:
I think free will and destiny compliment each other just fine. I see no conflict here. :yinyang:




I concur..


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Offlineprimativezen
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: Gomp]
    #8300920 - 04/18/08 02:57 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I find that to be an oxymoron......just look at the definitions Veritas posted.

Destiny

1. The inevitable or necessary fate to which a particular person or thing is destined; one's lot.


2. A predetermined course of events considered as something beyond human power or control.


3. The power or agency thought to predetermine events.


Free Will

1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.


2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: primativezen]
    #8301228 - 04/18/08 04:34 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Try to look at it as two sides of the same coin. The coin being the present moment.

On one side you have choice, potential, the future.
And on the other side you have fate, actualization, the past.

The two are simply different viewpoints of one single present moment.

You can say, it's destiny! What has happened, has happened, because it was meant to happen, for this or that reason.

And you can also say, it's free will! What will happen, will happen, when I make the choice for it to happen.

But they're essentially the same. Depending on how you observe it you will see fate or choice, a particle or a wave.

:mushroom2:


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Offlinegodfather89
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #8301367 - 04/18/08 05:17 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Its kinda mix, these events seem pre-paved out for you but there are many ways to respond to your situation.

Destiny = Your Situations / Scenarios [THESE ARE FIXED]
Free Will = How You Act In Those Situations [THESE ARE FLUID]


--------------------
"What people Don't Know Will Hurt them"


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: primativezen]
    #8302750 - 04/19/08 12:48 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

primativezen said:
What do you guys think about free will vs. destiny? I thought I'd share my personal opinion to see what you all think.

Through my reading and thinking, I no longer believe in human free will. I most certainly do believe that we have choices we make daily, everyday, such as my choosing to post this topic, though.

Heres how I think about it: Modern psychology has found that we are products of nature and nurture. Recent studies have found that it has more to do with nature than we ever thought. So if you think about it, more than 50% of who we are was determined before we were born, by our parents. Now realize you had no power over where you were born, and in what year you were born. As a baby when you first opened your eyes, you had no power over what you saw or felt, and you made some stereotypes and responses to all stimuli based on your genes and what encountered you that WAS OUT OF YOUR CONTROL (I'm not saying babies necessarily make advanced stereotypes, but I hope you catch my drift). So your first response was based on nature (genes) and the first things you experienced, you probably cried because of the pressure that was just on your head and the bright lights you'd never seen before. Everything that happens after this as a baby somehow relates to the first thing you saw, and you begin to build successive mental images and schemas of everything you percieve. At this point, yes you as a baby can choose where to direct your vision, but you still have no choice to go anywhere and your still basing each thought off of a previous thought. New things are happening to you, and how you react to them is based on stimuli and responses so far. You could argue that you would make random decisions to new stimuli, but the fact is your human brain tries to relate everything, even if it's an extremely stretched relation, so that you can make an "educated" reaction.

Each decision you make everyday is based on WHO YOU ARE. You could argue that "I could have made the choice to not have done xyz", but the fact is, you didn't make that choice because of who you are. There are no what ifs, because each decision you make is the decision you make regardless, YOU CANNOT GO BACK IN TIME, EVER. For example, I could say "But what if I had made the choice to not post this?" But in fact, everything in my life and during this day led up to me posting this, and everything in this post led up to me saying that I could have made the choice to not post this. It's very hard to describe, I hope you can understand what I'm trying to convey, and please try and point out my false reasoning here, because I've found it to be foolproof.

I'm not talking about the destiny some people speak of, such as a person didn't look both ways before crossing a street and they were hit by a car and died, but if they had looked both ways, they would have died anyways (by the car or by other means) - I don't believe this AT ALL. There is no going back in time, and therefore there are no what ifs, you make the decisions you make period, and if you decide to make a decision opposite of what you originally were going to do, the only reason you decided to do the opposite was because YOU decided to do it, according to who you are. Sorry for being repetitive, this is the part most people have trouble with.

*Disclaimer: I believe in the Christian God*

Here's where I tie it into Christian faith. If you hate Christians, think it's the worst contradiction filled religion or just don't believe it, feel free to skip this part.

With this is mind, you can better understand some of the verses in the Bible, such as:

Ephesians 1:4-10 "According as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, for us to be holy and without blemish before Him in love; predestinating us to adoption through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will"

Romans 9:7-23 "What then shall we say? Is there not unrighteousness with God? Let it not be! For He said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I have mercy, and I will pity whomever I pity." So, then, it is not of the one WILLING, nor of the one running, but of the One showing mercy-of God. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very thing I raised you up, so that I might show forth My power in you, and so that My name might be publicized in all the earth." So, then, to whom he desires, He has mercy, And whom He desires, He hardens. You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His counsel? Yes, rather, O man, who are you answering against God? Shall the thing formed say to the One forming it, Why did You make me like this? Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make one vessel to honor, and one to dishonor?"

I find people who cling to free will are just trying to comfort themselves in the fact that they have control over their life, but I find more comfort in the fact that my Perfect God is in control, and not me, my utterly imperfect self.

Alright, bring it on, shoot me down with everything you've got!



The Bible teaches man only acts according to his underlying nature. Man is only "free" to act according to his inclination. The problem is his inclination is naturally unrighteous due to the Fall. The Bible declares men to be spiritually dead, naturally unable to comprehend spiritual truth, born into bondage, blind to his own blindness. This is why a man must be "born again" and given a new mind and heart and brought out of this natural bondage by birth.

Predestination is all over scripture. God has decreed the beginning to the end, all things serve His purpose. Some are vessels fitted to destruction, others are created for mercy, both serve His purpose.

Without unconditional predestination salvation becomes a reward for a work. Works schemes are 100% fatal. Most so called Christians have no concept of true grace and seek justification on their own merits.


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OfflineViveka
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: fivepointer]
    #8302883 - 04/19/08 01:31 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I think this is all a lot of mental masturbation.

The experiment involving the pushing of a button with either the right or the left hand is stupid. Such an activity does not involve the formation of neural networks, or stimulate multiple branches of said networks or trigger neural growth factor. It doesn't call into play higher potentials of mind, it doesn't challenge anyone.

Fact is, no one can prove a theory like "freewill does not exist". So since this cannot be proven, what's the use in believing such a hypothesis? Why not believe you can exercise some degree of control regarding your choices and the direction of your life? Sure, it may be a delusion but we're all deluded either way so why ascribe to an idea that places a de facto limit on your potential?


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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: Viveka]
    #8303167 - 04/19/08 03:06 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

If you can show that all phenomenon are an effect of bottom up causality then you can show free will doesn't exist. That would be exceedingly hard to do though, people are working toward that.


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Offlineprimativezen
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: DieCommie]
    #8305161 - 04/19/08 07:01 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

To prove that even one thing is affected by downward causality is is harder still, that free will does exist :wink:


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Offlinegodfather89
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: fivepointer]
    #8305581 - 04/19/08 09:03 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

primativezen said:
What do you guys think about free will vs. destiny? I thought I'd share my personal opinion to see what you all think.

Through my reading and thinking, I no longer believe in human free will. I most certainly do believe that we have choices we make daily, everyday, such as my choosing to post this topic, though.

Heres how I think about it: Modern psychology has found that we are products of nature and nurture. Recent studies have found that it has more to do with nature than we ever thought. So if you think about it, more than 50% of who we are was determined before we were born, by our parents. Now realize you had no power over where you were born, and in what year you were born. As a baby when you first opened your eyes, you had no power over what you saw or felt, and you made some stereotypes and responses to all stimuli based on your genes and what encountered you that WAS OUT OF YOUR CONTROL (I'm not saying babies necessarily make advanced stereotypes, but I hope you catch my drift). So your first response was based on nature (genes) and the first things you experienced, you probably cried because of the pressure that was just on your head and the bright lights you'd never seen before. Everything that happens after this as a baby somehow relates to the first thing you saw, and you begin to build successive mental images and schemas of everything you percieve. At this point, yes you as a baby can choose where to direct your vision, but you still have no choice to go anywhere and your still basing each thought off of a previous thought. New things are happening to you, and how you react to them is based on stimuli and responses so far. You could argue that you would make random decisions to new stimuli, but the fact is your human brain tries to relate everything, even if it's an extremely stretched relation, so that you can make an "educated" reaction.

Each decision you make everyday is based on WHO YOU ARE. You could argue that "I could have made the choice to not have done xyz", but the fact is, you didn't make that choice because of who you are. There are no what ifs, because each decision you make is the decision you make regardless, YOU CANNOT GO BACK IN TIME, EVER. For example, I could say "But what if I had made the choice to not post this?" But in fact, everything in my life and during this day led up to me posting this, and everything in this post led up to me saying that I could have made the choice to not post this. It's very hard to describe, I hope you can understand what I'm trying to convey, and please try and point out my false reasoning here, because I've found it to be foolproof.

I'm not talking about the destiny some people speak of, such as a person didn't look both ways before crossing a street and they were hit by a car and died, but if they had looked both ways, they would have died anyways (by the car or by other means) - I don't believe this AT ALL. There is no going back in time, and therefore there are no what ifs, you make the decisions you make period, and if you decide to make a decision opposite of what you originally were going to do, the only reason you decided to do the opposite was because YOU decided to do it, according to who you are. Sorry for being repetitive, this is the part most people have trouble with.

*Disclaimer: I believe in the Christian God*

Here's where I tie it into Christian faith. If you hate Christians, think it's the worst contradiction filled religion or just don't believe it, feel free to skip this part.

With this is mind, you can better understand some of the verses in the Bible, such as:

Ephesians 1:4-10 "According as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, for us to be holy and without blemish before Him in love; predestinating us to adoption through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will"

Romans 9:7-23 "What then shall we say? Is there not unrighteousness with God? Let it not be! For He said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I have mercy, and I will pity whomever I pity." So, then, it is not of the one WILLING, nor of the one running, but of the One showing mercy-of God. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very thing I raised you up, so that I might show forth My power in you, and so that My name might be publicized in all the earth." So, then, to whom he desires, He has mercy, And whom He desires, He hardens. You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His counsel? Yes, rather, O man, who are you answering against God? Shall the thing formed say to the One forming it, Why did You make me like this? Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make one vessel to honor, and one to dishonor?"

I find people who cling to free will are just trying to comfort themselves in the fact that they have control over their life, but I find more comfort in the fact that my Perfect God is in control, and not me, my utterly imperfect self.

Alright, bring it on, shoot me down with everything you've got!



The Bible teaches man only acts according to his underlying nature. Man is only "free" to act according to his inclination. The problem is his inclination is naturally unrighteous due to the Fall. The Bible declares men to be spiritually dead, naturally unable to comprehend spiritual truth, born into bondage, blind to his own blindness. This is why a man must be "born again" and given a new mind and heart and brought out of this natural bondage by birth.

Predestination is all over scripture. God has decreed the beginning to the end, all things serve His purpose. Some are vessels fitted to destruction, others are created for mercy, both serve His purpose.

Without unconditional predestination salvation becomes a reward for a work. Works schemes are 100% fatal. Most so called Christians have no concept of true grace and seek justification on their own merits.




Out of all this I have to just say... Most if not all Christian Doctrine is based off a literal interpretation of Paul, very little of what Jesus teaches is found in the actions of any so called Christian, for example:

The Preacher says "God Hates Fags!" Yet, the preacher says God is Love! God cant be these two things one overrides the other. So what is it than, is it sinful to be a homosexual in the eyes of God or the eyes of certain men. Christ says "Love Thy Enemy!"

Yet, if these preachers say "God Hates Fags!" and see them as a satanic threat to people than why don't they follow their saviors teachings? Last time I checked Christianity is called Christianity because of Jesus Christ not, Paul of Tarsus. They don't follow because, they don't have faith in his teachings they don't have faith than why are they preaching? By there own omission they effectively stop being a Pastor and start being a salesman. What do we do when theres a salesman at the door? We say "No Thanks and Continue on with our day!"


--------------------
"What people Don't Know Will Hurt them"


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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: primativezen]
    #8305684 - 04/19/08 09:27 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

primativezen said:
To prove that even one thing is affected by downward causality is is harder still, that free will does exist :wink:


Actually, quite the opposite.  You need only have one case of downward causation verified to prove that it does exist, but you need to examine every phenomena in the universes to falsify it.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: godfather89]
    #8306889 - 04/20/08 03:00 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

godfather89 said:
Out of all this I have to just say... Most if not all Christian Doctrine is based off a literal interpretation of Paul, very little of what Jesus teaches is found in the actions of any so called Christian, for example:

The Preacher says "God Hates Fags!" Yet, the preacher says God is Love! God cant be these two things one overrides the other. So what is it than, is it sinful to be a homosexual in the eyes of God or the eyes of certain men. Christ says "Love Thy Enemy!"

Yet, if these preachers say "God Hates Fags!" and see them as a satanic threat to people than why don't they follow their saviors teachings? Last time I checked Christianity is called Christianity because of Jesus Christ not, Paul of Tarsus. They don't follow because, they don't have faith in his teachings they don't have faith than why are they preaching? By there own omission they effectively stop being a Pastor and start being a salesman. What do we do when theres a salesman at the door? We say "No Thanks and Continue on with our day!"



Paul's writings are scripture just as much as the writings of Moses. (Actually the Holy Spirit wrote the scriptures using these men.) Does God hate sin? Absolutely. Is homosexuality sin? Yes, described as such in many places. Now how can God hate sin and be love at the same time? God does not give up righteousness at the expense of love. God can not just look the other way concerning sin and say well I won't punish it. This is why the atonement is absolutely required, sin must be punished. Either it is punished on the sinner, or punished on Christ. One way or the other ALL sin is punished.

God shows His love to the elect by imputing their sin to Christ, even though they deserve wrath, they get mercy instead. This is the ultimate show of love.

Salvation is not a "decision" it is the gift of God. People that believe the notion that preachers are salesman that are looking for closing a sale do not understand the gospel at all. Salvation is not contingent on the sinner, it is contingent on the sovereign grace of God.


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OfflineFelinor
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: JoseLibrado]
    #8308063 - 04/20/08 05:03 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

The ONLY way you can disprove destiny is if theres parralel worlds, on the logical level if theres only one set of events then only one series of events are going to happen to you. Though i suppose you also have freewill. Is it possible to have both? silly close minded people:cool:


--------------------
The world itself is the will to power - and nothing else! And you yourself are the will to power - and nothing else! ~Friedrich Nietzsche


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: Felinor]
    #8308144 - 04/20/08 05:36 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Felinor said:
The ONLY way you can disprove destiny is if theres parralel worlds, on the logical level if theres only one set of events then only one series of events are going to happen to you. Though i suppose you also have freewill. Is it possible to have both? silly close minded people:cool:




It was not your destiny to post this response, since you made a decisive choice to click the submit button.

It was your destiny to post it, since the post is now manifest and thus collectively existent.

Two ways, one experience. :earth:


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