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 primativezen
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 Freewill vs. Destiny 
#8292370 - 04/16/08 05:22 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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What do you guys think about free will vs. destiny? I thought I'd share my personal opinion to see what you all think.
Through my reading and thinking, I no longer believe in human free will. I most certainly do believe that we have choices we make daily, everyday, such as my choosing to post this topic, though.
Heres how I think about it: Modern psychology has found that we are products of nature and nurture. Recent studies have found that it has more to do with nature than we ever thought. So if you think about it, more than 50% of who we are was determined before we were born, by our parents. Now realize you had no power over where you were born, and in what year you were born. As a baby when you first opened your eyes, you had no power over what you saw or felt, and you made some stereotypes and responses to all stimuli based on your genes and what encountered you that WAS OUT OF YOUR CONTROL (I'm not saying babies necessarily make advanced stereotypes, but I hope you catch my drift). So your first response was based on nature (genes) and the first things you experienced, you probably cried because of the pressure that was just on your head and the bright lights you'd never seen before. Everything that happens after this as a baby somehow relates to the first thing you saw, and you begin to build successive mental images and schemas of everything you percieve. At this point, yes you as a baby can choose where to direct your vision, but you still have no choice to go anywhere and your still basing each thought off of a previous thought. New things are happening to you, and how you react to them is based on stimuli and responses so far. You could argue that you would make random decisions to new stimuli, but the fact is your human brain tries to relate everything, even if it's an extremely stretched relation, so that you can make an "educated" reaction.
Each decision you make everyday is based on WHO YOU ARE. You could argue that "I could have made the choice to not have done xyz", but the fact is, you didn't make that choice because of who you are. There are no what ifs, because each decision you make is the decision you make regardless, YOU CANNOT GO BACK IN TIME, EVER. For example, I could say "But what if I had made the choice to not post this?" But in fact, everything in my life and during this day led up to me posting this, and everything in this post led up to me saying that I could have made the choice to not post this. It's very hard to describe, I hope you can understand what I'm trying to convey, and please try and point out my false reasoning here, because I've found it to be foolproof.
I'm not talking about the destiny some people speak of, such as a person didn't look both ways before crossing a street and they were hit by a car and died, but if they had looked both ways, they would have died anyways (by the car or by other means) - I don't believe this AT ALL. There is no going back in time, and therefore there are no what ifs, you make the decisions you make period, and if you decide to make a decision opposite of what you originally were going to do, the only reason you decided to do the opposite was because YOU decided to do it, according to who you are. Sorry for being repetitive, this is the part most people have trouble with.
*Disclaimer: I believe in the Christian God*
Here's where I tie it into Christian faith. If you hate Christians, think it's the worst contradiction filled religion or just don't believe it, feel free to skip this part.
With this is mind, you can better understand some of the verses in the Bible, such as:
Ephesians 1:4-10 "According as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, for us to be holy and without blemish before Him in love; predestinating us to adoption through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will"
Romans 9:7-23 "What then shall we say? Is there not unrighteousness with God? Let it not be! For He said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I have mercy, and I will pity whomever I pity." So, then, it is not of the one WILLING, nor of the one running, but of the One showing mercy-of God. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very thing I raised you up, so that I might show forth My power in you, and so that My name might be publicized in all the earth." So, then, to whom he desires, He has mercy, And whom He desires, He hardens. You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His counsel? Yes, rather, O man, who are you answering against God? Shall the thing formed say to the One forming it, Why did You make me like this? Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make one vessel to honor, and one to dishonor?"
I find people who cling to free will are just trying to comfort themselves in the fact that they have control over their life, but I find more comfort in the fact that my Perfect God is in control, and not me, my utterly imperfect self.
Alright, bring it on, shoot me down with everything you've got!
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 deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/scanner-shows-thought-you-know-it-yourself-15901.html
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In the study, participants could freely decide if they wanted to press a button with their left or right hand. They were free to make this decision whenever they wanted, but had to remember at which time they felt they had made up their mind. The aim of the experiment was to find out what happens in the brain in the period just before the person felt the decision was made. The researchers found that it was possible to predict from brain signals which option participants would take already seven seconds before they consciously made their decision.
In the end, we're merely extremely complicated machines. Free will is but an illusion.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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primativezen
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: deCypher]
#8292608 - 04/16/08 06:17 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Wow thats an amazing article! I've never read that before, nice find 
And seven seconds!
I'm not sure that proves destiny but it does go right along with it for sure
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future
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someone has a sig that says "anyone of you that believe in destiny I challenege any of you to step in front of a speeding bus."
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primativezen
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: future]
#8293674 - 04/16/08 09:04 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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thats the dumbest thing i've ever heard.
if you really think/believe that, well did you even read my post? I doubt it because I state an example almost identical to that pointless quote you just made. Here I'll quote it for you, as I'm sure you wont take the time to find it:
Quote:
primativezen said:
I'm not talking about the destiny some people speak of, such as a person didn't look both ways before crossing a street and they were hit by a car and died, but if they had looked both ways, they would have died anyways (by the car or by other means) - I don't believe this AT ALL.
Edited by primativezen (04/16/08 11:21 PM)
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
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Log in to view attachment
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Edited by DieCommie (11/09/16 03:40 PM)
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primativezen
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: DieCommie]
#8294263 - 04/16/08 11:18 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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DieCommie said:
Emergent properties arise in complex systems when the complexity of the system reaches a point where properties emerge out that are completely different than the properties of the individual constituents. This happens in many disciplines. Art for example, a painting is just a bunch of paint molecules and parchment, but when arranged in a particular complex configuration ‘new’ properties emerge out of the painting. Feelings, emotions, lust all can emerge out of a complex arrangement of atoms. These properties cannot be determined at all by studying the individual atoms.
But emotions CAN be conveyed by singular colors. Blue is often a sign of calmness, and red of anger or excitement. So these properties can be determined by the studying of individual atoms. Each object that is created i.e. a boat - must be studied as one element as well as many - because it exists in both planes. All emotions that are conveyed by that boat are based on the individual colors and the object as a whole, a boat, and how the viewer reacts to a boat and to the colors used. Here you are assuming that "new emotions" are being created, but that isn't possible. Out of these basic constituents is created another basic constituent, the boat, that we do fully understand. That's really beside the point though, as I understand what you're trying to get at.
Quote:
DieCommie said:
Strong emergence is when the properties that emerge out of a system cannot be determined from the basic constituents. Now it could be that this is a fundamental barrier that humans cant cross, we can never tie properties that emerge out of some complex systems to the basic constituent. Or perhaps we simply don’t have the theory and means to connect the emergent properties to basic interactions, but theoretically we could. One of these must be true, and there is no concrete evidence to discount either of them.
What is a fundamental barrier man cannot cross? Since the dawn of time we have been crossing these "barriers" and will continue to until the extinction of our race. I believe, as you stated it, we simply do not yet have "the means to connect the emergent properties to basic interactions" for things such as consciousness, but we are getting closer and closer everyday with science. I truly believe all things in our universe are understandable and explainable, we just might not have figured it out yet.
I guarantee the ancient Egyptians thought "We just won't ever know WHY it rains" and so they gave it a supernatural cause, a strong emergence, a rain god.
How can life not be explained by reductionism? Almost all of the facets of life can be explained. Yes there are still mysteries out there, but I don't think they are things we can just never figure out.
You seem very knowledgeable on this type of thinking and I respect your opinion and decision to not make a decision, but I just don't see any type of backing or proof to the strong emergence theory.
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Edited by primativezen (04/16/08 11:23 PM)
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
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Edited by DieCommie (11/16/16 10:13 AM)
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: DieCommie]
#8294461 - 04/17/08 12:13 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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There is certainly a non-quantitative emergent experience with art dude, you can see it
Edited by Qubit (07/23/08 09:57 PM)
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primativezen
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: DieCommie]
#8294614 - 04/17/08 01:09 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Of course it is always possible for top-down to be correct, thats like saying "How do you know a pink elephant doesn't live on another planet? Prove it". That argument can be used anywhere and I find it to be an unending circle.
But doesn't each level give way to a new? Protons, neutrons, and electrons to atoms, atoms to elements, elements to molecules to cells to neurons to lobes to the brain to consciousness. You cannot understand one without the previous. We have yet to even fully understand all of the physical processes of the brain, so how can we expect to yet understand the non-physical portion of the brain - consciousness. I believe levels give rise to new levels, and once we have full understanding of these physical processes we will begin to uncover the mystery of consciousness. Why all of the sudden must we use downward causality to understand the latter? It's not as if we've known much about the brain itself for very long anyways. How can we expect to know, I believe, the most complex piece of the universe in such a short amount of time after only partly understanding the parts that give rise to it? I believe only time, technology, and theories are needed until we fully understand consciousness.
We only used downward causality for the others when down-up didn't work. For thousands of years men have given top-down reasoning to things they didn't understand. They assumed they never would, that the sum was greater than the parts, using gods and supernatural reasons to explain them. But now we do know why it rains, why we feel pain, and why it's cold in winter and warm in summer, using upward causality, rendering all of their reasonings as worthless and utterly false.
I definitely agree that if there is free will, there is downward causation. But I don't believe in either of these 
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Deadly, tasty, or bitter and spacey!
Edited by primativezen (04/17/08 01:44 AM)
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
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Quote:
I most certainly do believe that we have choices we make daily, everyday, such as my choosing to post this topic, though.
If you can make choices, you have free will and there is top down causation.
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strawberryjam
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: DieCommie]
#8295266 - 04/17/08 08:17 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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we all share in the creation of the collective future. greedy people want more control. they will probably die infront of their televisions though, or some such despicable fate. considering there are hrm, 10trillion creatures within you making noise, how much % share do you think of your choices is really yours? of the evolution of our cities and social mores. who controls it all? iono, all we can do is dance
acting without thought does not mean acting blind
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future
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Quote:
primativezen said:
thats the dumbest thing i've ever heard.
if you really think/believe that, well did you even read my post? I doubt it because I state an example almost identical to that pointless quote you just made. Here I'll quote it for you, as I'm sure you wont take the time to find it:
Quote:
primativezen said:
I'm not talking about the destiny some people speak of, such as a person didn't look both ways before crossing a street and they were hit by a car and died, but if they had looked both ways, they would have died anyways (by the car or by other means) - I don't believe this AT ALL.
well good luck explaining that one because that's the dubmest thing i've ever heard.
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I am the fakest person on this site. I only pretend to grow and consume illegal mushrooms. I have no knowledge what so ever on any scheduled substance because I know and respect the governing law in the United States of America. All pictures and dialogue posted by me is entirley copyrighted from those who wish to knowingly ignore the laws. I only post these messages as a mere propaganda technique used to gain attention and admiration from others. Thank You
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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free will + destiny = same same.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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primativezen
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: Icelander]
#8296339 - 04/17/08 02:02 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Choices and free will are two different things. Read my post more carefully. You will see that I believe our choices are based off of who we are, and who we are is based off of things out of our power which I clearly present in my first post. I really don't feel like reposting exactly what I posted in my first post...
OF COURSE WE CAN MAKE CHOICES! I'm choosing to type RIGHT NOW. Read my post!! It is literally impossible to refute the idea that we make choices. I can choose to raise my hand right now or not, but how does that prove free will? Please read my post, it explains all of this.
Edited by primativezen (04/17/08 02:10 PM)
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primativezen
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: future]
#8296350 - 04/17/08 02:05 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
future said:
Quote:
primativezen said:
thats the dumbest thing i've ever heard.
if you really think/believe that, well did you even read my post? I doubt it because I state an example almost identical to that pointless quote you just made. Here I'll quote it for you, as I'm sure you wont take the time to find it:
Quote:
primativezen said:
I'm not talking about the destiny some people speak of, such as a person didn't look both ways before crossing a street and they were hit by a car and died, but if they had looked both ways, they would have died anyways (by the car or by other means) - I don't believe this AT ALL.
well good luck explaining that one because that's the dubmest thing i've ever heard.
I did explain it in my first post....
Quote:
primativezen said:
I'm not talking about the destiny some people speak of, such as a person didn't look both ways before crossing a street and they were hit by a car and died, but if they had looked both ways, they would have died anyways (by the car or by other means) - I don't believe this AT ALL. There is no going back in time, and therefore there are no what ifs, you make the decisions you make period, and if you decide to make a decision opposite of what you originally were going to do, the only reason you decided to do the opposite was because YOU decided to do it, according to who you are. Sorry for being repetitive, this is the part most people have trouble with.
You've added nothing to this thread thus far except for quoting someone else and myself....If you don't understand my post, please don't just reply for the fun of it.
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Deadly, tasty, or bitter and spacey!
Edited by primativezen (04/17/08 02:14 PM)
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primativezen
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: Icelander]
#8296394 - 04/17/08 02:16 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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May I ask how free will and destiny are the same??
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primativezen
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Quote:
strawberryjam said:
all we can do is dance
sounds like some song lyrics strawberry, I like it
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MushroomTrip
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Quote:
Choices and free will are two different things. Read my post more carefully. You will see that I believe our choices are based off of who we are, and who we are is based off of things out of our power which I clearly present in my first post. I really don't feel like reposting exactly what I posted in my first post...
No, free will resides in the ability to acknowledge that the number of choices you can take regarding a certain aspect are not limited to one. Being capable of realizing that you can choose from all of these based on the outcome you prefer is called free will.
Of course, the choices are based on who we are, what else did you expect? This is basic logic and if you had a different idea about what free will is, you're only confused.
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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JoseLibrado
return
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Free will - in the sense that I understand 'free', is synonynous with Unlimited and/or limitless.
'Will' is synonymous with Choice - because Choice is basically how we begin to generate a will, directed to a specific thing.
With this said "Limitless will" or "Free Will" is an illusion for the following reason;
Choice or choosing - is something we have No 'choice' but to express.
For example, try and stop choosing - the problem apparent is that you 'have' 'must' by necessity choose, to 'stop choosing' and free will, is not synonymous with nessecitated or forced will. ....but didnt you 'choose' freely to stop choosing...so doesnt that show that you do have free will...yes you did choose to stop choosing - but you never chose to HAVE by nesecity to make a choice about the stopping of choice.
If this is stupid, sounds dumb or to complicated, there is another measure to see if you have free or limitless will...
Since you must have free or limitless choices - for you to assume that free will exists as our nature - there exists the problem of not being aware of all EXISTING choices, WHEN WE MAKE OUR CHOICE.
For example, I am trying to make a pasta and i have a few ingredients in the fridge...since i am not aware that pasta tastes extar good if you put basil in it, I cannot CHOOSE to put basil in it, for the simple fact that you cannot choose what you do not know is there for you to choose, from a choice that has not been made apparent for you.
Ironically, if you dont realize if your choices are limited by things that you cannot know at the point you make a choice, you can still have the imaginatory reality that you express free will.
For example, a boy named Iam was born into a kingdom when he as 22 his father came to him and said “Iam you have the free choice to choose between working on a farm or joining our patriotic army.!!!” Iam chose farming because he saw that he could not stand the sight of blood and would faint when he saw it. One day whole working on the eggplants, a wise man by the name of Bubbles came to Iam from a long journey around the world and said “I have travelled long and far, I experienced things which were inconceivable to me before I took this voyage!!! What a joy, what a joy!” When he left Iam, he was left with the conception that the options he had been given to apply his free choice or limitless choice to, were not the only ones which existed. Iam then realized that from the beginning of being asked to choose through what he first thought was a choice unlimited in nature but found out through the wise man that they were not, he concluded that his choice was limited and thus his will was not free, after all. By virtue of being without the distinction that there exists something outside of these two things which is inconceived, Iam had the proper basis for imagining that he has free will up until he met Bubble, in so far he not could conceive of his choices as being limited in themselves because they only extended to farming or the army and not to dancing or singing or living in an ashram. Like this boy in the story the story, our choices have been limited by the limits of the things we cannot conceive of. For it is certain that it is not possible to conceive of the inconceivable as, certain as it is impossible to choose freely and limitlessly, if we cannot concieve of all choice available and existing.
All this writing is nothing when it comes to actual reality - when you get into our world since everyone believes in free will and also since you have been conditioned to believe in it, in a subtle unquestionable way, it will be very hard to reverse this thought process, this train that ensues madness in our relationships especially.
Thought must be proded and zapped into our brain - still it is so uncomfortable because the brain says NO! That is evil, indeed its own construct(about whatever, especially free will) will interact with the new one you are trying instill and it will send emotional messages telling you that you better be careful and stop thinking like this - Thats when you have to divert its irrational nature to assume everything it was taught and everything that seems to be true to it, and ZAAAP it with a new belief, no matter how uncomfortable that mixed feelings stage is....
Edited by JoseLibrado (04/17/08 03:14 PM)
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primativezen
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
Choices and free will are two different things. Read my post more carefully. You will see that I believe our choices are based off of who we are, and who we are is based off of things out of our power which I clearly present in my first post. I really don't feel like reposting exactly what I posted in my first post...
No, free will resides in the ability to acknowledge that the number of choices you can take regarding a certain aspect are not limited to one. Being capable of realizing that you can choose from all of these based on the outcome you prefer is called free will.
Of course, the choices are based on who we are, what else did you expect? This is basic logic and if you had a different idea about what free will is, you're only confused.
Free will IS NOT the ability to acknowledge you can make more than one choice. It is the ability to do as you please, free from the system you are in, as a free radical that is not bound by anything and is therefore free to will whatever one chooses. It's simply not possible.
No, I don't have a different idea, I clearly stated I do believe our choices are based on who we are. And how do we become who we are? Read my first post, and you will see, and realize the error in your statement.
Edited by primativezen (04/17/08 03:20 PM)
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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If ones destiny was to have free will, and one used that free will to follow ones destiny..
Would one then be free? Or not?
..and/or could it be both? (...and then some!)
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Disclaimer!?
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primativezen
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: Gomp]
#8296632 - 04/17/08 03:15 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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But if your destiny was to have free will, the entire destiny could not be laid out and therefore there would be no destiny. haha this is just crazy talk  You could go in endless circles with this one too though I think
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MushroomTrip
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Quote:
Free will IS NOT the ability to acknowledge you can make more than one choice. It is the ability to do as you please, free from the system you are in, as a free radical that is not bound by anything and is therefore free to will whatever one chooses. It's simply not possible.
And what exactly is keeping you from doing everything that you like?
The fact that there are repercussions for your actions doesn't mean that you can't do as you like, it means that you choose to act in a different manner because you realized that the effects of what you wanted to to do were something that didn't appeal to you.
Still your choice. 
Quote:
No, I don't have a different idea, I clearly stated I do believe our choices are based on who we are. And how do we become who we are? Read my first post, and you will see, and realize the error in your statement.
Free will doesn't equate with randomness, it looks like you're making a confusion between those two.
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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Quote:
primativezen said:
But if your destiny was to have free will, the entire destiny could not be laid out and therefore there would be no destiny. haha this is just crazy talk You could go in endless circles with this one too though I think
What if one used the free will, to make it so that the entire destiny could be laid out? After all, it is free will?
Oh... And, mind the circle spiraling..
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Slave of Cthuluh
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: JoseLibrado]
#8296806 - 04/17/08 03:58 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Free-will can create blissful ignorance. Its nice to be able to do whatever you please, but without a personal boundry, crossing the line will become habitual.
Destiny Is just another way of saying fate. A set path chosen specifically for one person. An unseen, unknown road your life takes you by. You never know whats coming next. Wether tomorrow is the day you die. Or the day you are truly brought to life. People say fate and destiny cannot be changed. I say...You hold the power to control your life. ONLY YOU can choose where your life takes you. Let no man or woman tell you what will happen in your life Listen only to your heart. The heart is stronger then the mind...
Believe in yourself...Listen to your heart...Follow it...Your fate rests in your hands. Make your path. And follow it to the end. That...is Destiny.
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fireworks_god
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Quote:
Slave of Cthuluh said:
The heart is stronger then the mind...
Because it pumps blood? 
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
 
 
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Slave of Cthuluh
I know it's spelt wrong...
Registered: 02/22/08
Posts: 722
Loc: R'lyeh
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
Slave of Cthuluh said:
The heart is stronger then the mind...
Because it pumps blood?
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ChiefGreenLeaf
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,596
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Our brains are genetically driven to maximize dopamine. dopamine is the neurotransmitter mostly responsible for happiness. We make decisions based on what we BELIEVE will increase dopamine, but it doesn't always work out for us. It gets more complicated then that, but thats the jist of it. You're essentially a slave to biology, however if you can learn how to control it. Realizing this has had a profound impact on my life.
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primativezen
dream yogi
Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 132
Loc: sunny country
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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What is keeping you from doing everything you like??? YOU ARE!!
THE SYSTEM IS!! I agree ITS YOUR CHOICE!!! But WHY didn't you make the other choice? You COULD have made the other choice, but you didn't, because YOU didn't want to. You can't go back in time and change it, therefore who you were dictated the choice you made, and who you are is based on nature and nurture, both out of your hands - see first post to understand this.
I didn't equate free will with randomness.........
A free radical is something that exists and operates outside a system. It is free to do as it pleases. Can you defy gravity by jumping into space? No. You do not have free will over gravity, as well as being a male/female. You were brought into this world as a male/female and it was out of your control, because you are part of a system.
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Deadly, tasty, or bitter and spacey!
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Quote:
ChiefGreenLeaf said:You're essentially a slave to biology, however if you can learn how to control it. Realizing this has had a profound impact on my life.
QFT. All it takes is one look at compulsive gamblers, junkies, and the billions of people driven to do things for either that rush of an orgasm, that stimulus of dopamine, or that chink of money to fuel the next search for stimulus to make you realize how much free will is really an illusion.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,888
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 6 months, 30 days
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Quote:
Slave of Cthuluh said:
Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
Slave of Cthuluh said:
The heart is stronger then the mind...
Because it pumps blood?
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist
Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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 Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: Gomp]
#8297164 - 04/17/08 05:21 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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I think free will and destiny compliment each other just fine. I see no conflict here.
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awesomebastard
Lost
Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 4,891
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: JoseLibrado]
#8297175 - 04/17/08 05:23 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Freewill  laughable all we are is a machine, a product of genetics and circumstance. I dont know if I believe in destiny either I guess I'll just have to wait and find out.
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"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser
Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Quote:
Destiny
1. The inevitable or necessary fate to which a particular person or thing is destined; one's lot.
2. A predetermined course of events considered as something beyond human power or control.
3. The power or agency thought to predetermine events.
Quote:
Free Will
1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
Now that we've clarified what these terms actually mean, do you still claim that free will does not exist? I agree that our circumstances have a great deal of influence over our choices, but this does not mean that they CONTROL those choices.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: Veritas]
#8297228 - 04/17/08 05:37 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Veritas, I'm curious if you read the link to the article I posted at the very beginning of this thread. Interesting food for thought, at any rate... it seems we aren't aware that we've even made a "choice" of whence you speak for at least seven seconds until after our subconscious has already made up its mind.
http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/scanner-shows-thought-you-know-it-yourself-15901.html
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: deCypher]
#8297257 - 04/17/08 05:43 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yes, I'm aware of this experiment. Have you considered that the process of remembering when you made a decision is what causes the 7-second delay? The workings of our brain are far more complex than the old "unconscious/subconscious/conscious" model describes.
This experiment in no way indicates that free will does not exist. For more info., I recommend "Blink."
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: Veritas]
#8297266 - 04/17/08 05:45 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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For sure, that's one explanation. It doesn't prove anything about free will, but it does show our decisions are a bit more complex than the for-granted visualization of free will we normally have.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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primativezen
dream yogi
Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 132
Loc: sunny country
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: deCypher]
#8297283 - 04/17/08 05:48 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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The first defintion of free will is somewhat lacking. The second one nails it - you cannot operate outside of the system, the external circumstances. It just doesn't work. As I said in a post before, you didn't get to choose your gender, where you were born, or what you first saw, so how do you believe you operate outside of these "external circumstances"? If it influences, it controls. What part does it not control? Human free choice? But your choices are based upon who you are? And who are you? A product of your parents and your experiences, that you could not avoid. Again - read the very first post.
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Deadly, tasty, or bitter and spacey!
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: deCypher]
#8297290 - 04/17/08 05:49 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Speak for yourself. I'm well aware of the multi-layered process which occurs when we encounter motivating stimuli, and have no illusions about it being simple OR internally-observable.
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awesomebastard
Lost
Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 4,891
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You have no choice only the illusion of one.
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"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser
Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."
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JoseLibrado
return
Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 569
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
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Try to will yourself to imagine a color that you have never experienced.
Try to will yourself to imagine the sound of an animal you have never experienced.
Do this without mixing in already experienced phenomena - at all - then ask yourself if your will is unbound.
The way i have come to gather about out will - is that it is both unlimited and limited.
Eternal Limit. Constantly changing Limit.
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The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution.
And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change.
Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems.
Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,407
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: JoseLibrado]
#8297671 - 04/17/08 07:07 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Try to will yourself to imagine the sound of an animal you have never experienced.
Areeeee-k-k-k ng bznok!
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist
Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Sounds like some kind of strange bird alien hybrid.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,407
Loc: Under the C
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Do I win a prize? 
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist
Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Nope. Your fate is sealed! 
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primativezen
dream yogi
Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 132
Loc: sunny country
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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haha nice
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Deadly, tasty, or bitter and spacey!
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,888
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 6 months, 30 days
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Quote:
AlteredAgain said:
I think free will and destiny compliment each other just fine. I see no conflict here.
I concur..
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primativezen
dream yogi
Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 132
Loc: sunny country
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: Gomp]
#8300920 - 04/18/08 12:57 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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I find that to be an oxymoron......just look at the definitions Veritas posted.
Destiny
1. The inevitable or necessary fate to which a particular person or thing is destined; one's lot.
2. A predetermined course of events considered as something beyond human power or control.
3. The power or agency thought to predetermine events.
Free Will
1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
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Deadly, tasty, or bitter and spacey!
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist
Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Try to look at it as two sides of the same coin. The coin being the present moment.
On one side you have choice, potential, the future.
And on the other side you have fate, actualization, the past.
The two are simply different viewpoints of one single present moment.
You can say, it's destiny! What has happened, has happened, because it was meant to happen, for this or that reason.
And you can also say, it's free will! What will happen, will happen, when I make the choice for it to happen.
But they're essentially the same. Depending on how you observe it you will see fate or choice, a particle or a wave.
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godfather89
GnosticChristian
Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 49
Loc: Long Island, NY
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
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Its kinda mix, these events seem pre-paved out for you but there are many ways to respond to your situation.
Destiny = Your Situations / Scenarios [THESE ARE FIXED]
Free Will = How You Act In Those Situations [THESE ARE FLUID]
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"What people Don't Know Will Hurt them"
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
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Quote:
primativezen said:
What do you guys think about free will vs. destiny? I thought I'd share my personal opinion to see what you all think.
Through my reading and thinking, I no longer believe in human free will. I most certainly do believe that we have choices we make daily, everyday, such as my choosing to post this topic, though.
Heres how I think about it: Modern psychology has found that we are products of nature and nurture. Recent studies have found that it has more to do with nature than we ever thought. So if you think about it, more than 50% of who we are was determined before we were born, by our parents. Now realize you had no power over where you were born, and in what year you were born. As a baby when you first opened your eyes, you had no power over what you saw or felt, and you made some stereotypes and responses to all stimuli based on your genes and what encountered you that WAS OUT OF YOUR CONTROL (I'm not saying babies necessarily make advanced stereotypes, but I hope you catch my drift). So your first response was based on nature (genes) and the first things you experienced, you probably cried because of the pressure that was just on your head and the bright lights you'd never seen before. Everything that happens after this as a baby somehow relates to the first thing you saw, and you begin to build successive mental images and schemas of everything you percieve. At this point, yes you as a baby can choose where to direct your vision, but you still have no choice to go anywhere and your still basing each thought off of a previous thought. New things are happening to you, and how you react to them is based on stimuli and responses so far. You could argue that you would make random decisions to new stimuli, but the fact is your human brain tries to relate everything, even if it's an extremely stretched relation, so that you can make an "educated" reaction.
Each decision you make everyday is based on WHO YOU ARE. You could argue that "I could have made the choice to not have done xyz", but the fact is, you didn't make that choice because of who you are. There are no what ifs, because each decision you make is the decision you make regardless, YOU CANNOT GO BACK IN TIME, EVER. For example, I could say "But what if I had made the choice to not post this?" But in fact, everything in my life and during this day led up to me posting this, and everything in this post led up to me saying that I could have made the choice to not post this. It's very hard to describe, I hope you can understand what I'm trying to convey, and please try and point out my false reasoning here, because I've found it to be foolproof.
I'm not talking about the destiny some people speak of, such as a person didn't look both ways before crossing a street and they were hit by a car and died, but if they had looked both ways, they would have died anyways (by the car or by other means) - I don't believe this AT ALL. There is no going back in time, and therefore there are no what ifs, you make the decisions you make period, and if you decide to make a decision opposite of what you originally were going to do, the only reason you decided to do the opposite was because YOU decided to do it, according to who you are. Sorry for being repetitive, this is the part most people have trouble with.
*Disclaimer: I believe in the Christian God*
Here's where I tie it into Christian faith. If you hate Christians, think it's the worst contradiction filled religion or just don't believe it, feel free to skip this part.
With this is mind, you can better understand some of the verses in the Bible, such as:
Ephesians 1:4-10 "According as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, for us to be holy and without blemish before Him in love; predestinating us to adoption through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will"
Romans 9:7-23 "What then shall we say? Is there not unrighteousness with God? Let it not be! For He said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I have mercy, and I will pity whomever I pity." So, then, it is not of the one WILLING, nor of the one running, but of the One showing mercy-of God. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very thing I raised you up, so that I might show forth My power in you, and so that My name might be publicized in all the earth." So, then, to whom he desires, He has mercy, And whom He desires, He hardens. You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His counsel? Yes, rather, O man, who are you answering against God? Shall the thing formed say to the One forming it, Why did You make me like this? Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make one vessel to honor, and one to dishonor?"
I find people who cling to free will are just trying to comfort themselves in the fact that they have control over their life, but I find more comfort in the fact that my Perfect God is in control, and not me, my utterly imperfect self.
Alright, bring it on, shoot me down with everything you've got!
The Bible teaches man only acts according to his underlying nature. Man is only "free" to act according to his inclination. The problem is his inclination is naturally unrighteous due to the Fall. The Bible declares men to be spiritually dead, naturally unable to comprehend spiritual truth, born into bondage, blind to his own blindness. This is why a man must be "born again" and given a new mind and heart and brought out of this natural bondage by birth.
Predestination is all over scripture. God has decreed the beginning to the end, all things serve His purpose. Some are vessels fitted to destruction, others are created for mercy, both serve His purpose.
Without unconditional predestination salvation becomes a reward for a work. Works schemes are 100% fatal. Most so called Christians have no concept of true grace and seek justification on their own merits.
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Viveka
refutation bias
Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 4,061
Last seen: 7 years, 3 days
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: fivepointer]
#8302883 - 04/18/08 11:31 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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I think this is all a lot of mental masturbation.
The experiment involving the pushing of a button with either the right or the left hand is stupid. Such an activity does not involve the formation of neural networks, or stimulate multiple branches of said networks or trigger neural growth factor. It doesn't call into play higher potentials of mind, it doesn't challenge anyone.
Fact is, no one can prove a theory like "freewill does not exist". So since this cannot be proven, what's the use in believing such a hypothesis? Why not believe you can exercise some degree of control regarding your choices and the direction of your life? Sure, it may be a delusion but we're all deluded either way so why ascribe to an idea that places a de facto limit on your potential?
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: Viveka]
#8303167 - 04/19/08 01:06 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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If you can show that all phenomenon are an effect of bottom up causality then you can show free will doesn't exist. That would be exceedingly hard to do though, people are working toward that.
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primativezen
dream yogi
Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 132
Loc: sunny country
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: DieCommie]
#8305161 - 04/19/08 05:01 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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To prove that even one thing is affected by downward causality is is harder still, that free will does exist 
--------------------
Deadly, tasty, or bitter and spacey!
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godfather89
GnosticChristian
Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 49
Loc: Long Island, NY
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: fivepointer]
#8305581 - 04/19/08 07:03 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
Quote:
primativezen said:
What do you guys think about free will vs. destiny? I thought I'd share my personal opinion to see what you all think.
Through my reading and thinking, I no longer believe in human free will. I most certainly do believe that we have choices we make daily, everyday, such as my choosing to post this topic, though.
Heres how I think about it: Modern psychology has found that we are products of nature and nurture. Recent studies have found that it has more to do with nature than we ever thought. So if you think about it, more than 50% of who we are was determined before we were born, by our parents. Now realize you had no power over where you were born, and in what year you were born. As a baby when you first opened your eyes, you had no power over what you saw or felt, and you made some stereotypes and responses to all stimuli based on your genes and what encountered you that WAS OUT OF YOUR CONTROL (I'm not saying babies necessarily make advanced stereotypes, but I hope you catch my drift). So your first response was based on nature (genes) and the first things you experienced, you probably cried because of the pressure that was just on your head and the bright lights you'd never seen before. Everything that happens after this as a baby somehow relates to the first thing you saw, and you begin to build successive mental images and schemas of everything you percieve. At this point, yes you as a baby can choose where to direct your vision, but you still have no choice to go anywhere and your still basing each thought off of a previous thought. New things are happening to you, and how you react to them is based on stimuli and responses so far. You could argue that you would make random decisions to new stimuli, but the fact is your human brain tries to relate everything, even if it's an extremely stretched relation, so that you can make an "educated" reaction.
Each decision you make everyday is based on WHO YOU ARE. You could argue that "I could have made the choice to not have done xyz", but the fact is, you didn't make that choice because of who you are. There are no what ifs, because each decision you make is the decision you make regardless, YOU CANNOT GO BACK IN TIME, EVER. For example, I could say "But what if I had made the choice to not post this?" But in fact, everything in my life and during this day led up to me posting this, and everything in this post led up to me saying that I could have made the choice to not post this. It's very hard to describe, I hope you can understand what I'm trying to convey, and please try and point out my false reasoning here, because I've found it to be foolproof.
I'm not talking about the destiny some people speak of, such as a person didn't look both ways before crossing a street and they were hit by a car and died, but if they had looked both ways, they would have died anyways (by the car or by other means) - I don't believe this AT ALL. There is no going back in time, and therefore there are no what ifs, you make the decisions you make period, and if you decide to make a decision opposite of what you originally were going to do, the only reason you decided to do the opposite was because YOU decided to do it, according to who you are. Sorry for being repetitive, this is the part most people have trouble with.
*Disclaimer: I believe in the Christian God*
Here's where I tie it into Christian faith. If you hate Christians, think it's the worst contradiction filled religion or just don't believe it, feel free to skip this part.
With this is mind, you can better understand some of the verses in the Bible, such as:
Ephesians 1:4-10 "According as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, for us to be holy and without blemish before Him in love; predestinating us to adoption through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will"
Romans 9:7-23 "What then shall we say? Is there not unrighteousness with God? Let it not be! For He said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I have mercy, and I will pity whomever I pity." So, then, it is not of the one WILLING, nor of the one running, but of the One showing mercy-of God. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very thing I raised you up, so that I might show forth My power in you, and so that My name might be publicized in all the earth." So, then, to whom he desires, He has mercy, And whom He desires, He hardens. You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His counsel? Yes, rather, O man, who are you answering against God? Shall the thing formed say to the One forming it, Why did You make me like this? Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make one vessel to honor, and one to dishonor?"
I find people who cling to free will are just trying to comfort themselves in the fact that they have control over their life, but I find more comfort in the fact that my Perfect God is in control, and not me, my utterly imperfect self.
Alright, bring it on, shoot me down with everything you've got!
The Bible teaches man only acts according to his underlying nature. Man is only "free" to act according to his inclination. The problem is his inclination is naturally unrighteous due to the Fall. The Bible declares men to be spiritually dead, naturally unable to comprehend spiritual truth, born into bondage, blind to his own blindness. This is why a man must be "born again" and given a new mind and heart and brought out of this natural bondage by birth.
Predestination is all over scripture. God has decreed the beginning to the end, all things serve His purpose. Some are vessels fitted to destruction, others are created for mercy, both serve His purpose.
Without unconditional predestination salvation becomes a reward for a work. Works schemes are 100% fatal. Most so called Christians have no concept of true grace and seek justification on their own merits.
Out of all this I have to just say... Most if not all Christian Doctrine is based off a literal interpretation of Paul, very little of what Jesus teaches is found in the actions of any so called Christian, for example:
The Preacher says "God Hates Fags!" Yet, the preacher says God is Love! God cant be these two things one overrides the other. So what is it than, is it sinful to be a homosexual in the eyes of God or the eyes of certain men. Christ says "Love Thy Enemy!"
Yet, if these preachers say "God Hates Fags!" and see them as a satanic threat to people than why don't they follow their saviors teachings? Last time I checked Christianity is called Christianity because of Jesus Christ not, Paul of Tarsus. They don't follow because, they don't have faith in his teachings they don't have faith than why are they preaching? By there own omission they effectively stop being a Pastor and start being a salesman. What do we do when theres a salesman at the door? We say "No Thanks and Continue on with our day!"
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"What people Don't Know Will Hurt them"
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Quote:
primativezen said:
To prove that even one thing is affected by downward causality is is harder still, that free will does exist
Actually, quite the opposite. You need only have one case of downward causation verified to prove that it does exist, but you need to examine every phenomena in the universes to falsify it.
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: godfather89]
#8306889 - 04/20/08 01:00 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
godfather89 said:
Out of all this I have to just say... Most if not all Christian Doctrine is based off a literal interpretation of Paul, very little of what Jesus teaches is found in the actions of any so called Christian, for example:
The Preacher says "God Hates Fags!" Yet, the preacher says God is Love! God cant be these two things one overrides the other. So what is it than, is it sinful to be a homosexual in the eyes of God or the eyes of certain men. Christ says "Love Thy Enemy!"
Yet, if these preachers say "God Hates Fags!" and see them as a satanic threat to people than why don't they follow their saviors teachings? Last time I checked Christianity is called Christianity because of Jesus Christ not, Paul of Tarsus. They don't follow because, they don't have faith in his teachings they don't have faith than why are they preaching? By there own omission they effectively stop being a Pastor and start being a salesman. What do we do when theres a salesman at the door? We say "No Thanks and Continue on with our day!"
Paul's writings are scripture just as much as the writings of Moses. (Actually the Holy Spirit wrote the scriptures using these men.) Does God hate sin? Absolutely. Is homosexuality sin? Yes, described as such in many places. Now how can God hate sin and be love at the same time? God does not give up righteousness at the expense of love. God can not just look the other way concerning sin and say well I won't punish it. This is why the atonement is absolutely required, sin must be punished. Either it is punished on the sinner, or punished on Christ. One way or the other ALL sin is punished.
God shows His love to the elect by imputing their sin to Christ, even though they deserve wrath, they get mercy instead. This is the ultimate show of love.
Salvation is not a "decision" it is the gift of God. People that believe the notion that preachers are salesman that are looking for closing a sale do not understand the gospel at all. Salvation is not contingent on the sinner, it is contingent on the sovereign grace of God.
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Felinor
PhilosophicalDreamer
Registered: 03/02/08
Posts: 680
Loc: Down Town China Town
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: JoseLibrado]
#8308063 - 04/20/08 03:03 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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The ONLY way you can disprove destiny is if theres parralel worlds, on the logical level if theres only one set of events then only one series of events are going to happen to you. Though i suppose you also have freewill. Is it possible to have both? silly close minded people
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The world itself is the will to power - and nothing else! And you yourself are the will to power - and nothing else! ~Friedrich Nietzsche
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist
Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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 Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: Felinor]
#8308144 - 04/20/08 03:36 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Felinor said:
The ONLY way you can disprove destiny is if theres parralel worlds, on the logical level if theres only one set of events then only one series of events are going to happen to you. Though i suppose you also have freewill. Is it possible to have both? silly close minded people
It was not your destiny to post this response, since you made a decisive choice to click the submit button.
It was your destiny to post it, since the post is now manifest and thus collectively existent.
Two ways, one experience.
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Felinor
PhilosophicalDreamer
Registered: 03/02/08
Posts: 680
Loc: Down Town China Town
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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Quote:
AlteredAgain said:
Quote:
Felinor said:
The ONLY way you can disprove destiny is if theres parralel worlds, on the logical level if theres only one set of events then only one series of events are going to happen to you. Though i suppose you also have freewill. Is it possible to have both? silly close minded people
It was not your destiny to post this response, since you made a decisive choice to click the submit button.
It was your destiny to post it, since the post is now manifest and thus collectively existent.
Two ways, one experience.
we're genius's!
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The world itself is the will to power - and nothing else! And you yourself are the will to power - and nothing else! ~Friedrich Nietzsche
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primativezen
dream yogi
Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 132
Loc: sunny country
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Quote:
AlteredAgain said:
It was not your destiny to post this response
Quote:
AlteredAgain said:
It was your destiny to post it
that doesn't work..
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Deadly, tasty, or bitter and spacey!
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godfather89
GnosticChristian
Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 49
Loc: Long Island, NY
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
Quote:
godfather89 said:
Out of all this I have to just say... Most if not all Christian Doctrine is based off a literal interpretation of Paul, very little of what Jesus teaches is found in the actions of any so called Christian, for example:
The Preacher says "God Hates Fags!" Yet, the preacher says God is Love! God cant be these two things one overrides the other. So what is it than, is it sinful to be a homosexual in the eyes of God or the eyes of certain men. Christ says "Love Thy Enemy!"
Yet, if these preachers say "God Hates Fags!" and see them as a satanic threat to people than why don't they follow their saviors teachings? Last time I checked Christianity is called Christianity because of Jesus Christ not, Paul of Tarsus. They don't follow because, they don't have faith in his teachings they don't have faith than why are they preaching? By there own omission they effectively stop being a Pastor and start being a salesman. What do we do when theres a salesman at the door? We say "No Thanks and Continue on with our day!"
Paul's writings are scripture just as much as the writings of Moses. (Actually the Holy Spirit wrote the scriptures using these men.) Does God hate sin? Absolutely. Is homosexuality sin? Yes, described as such in many places. Now how can God hate sin and be love at the same time? God does not give up righteousness at the expense of love. God can not just look the other way concerning sin and say well I won't punish it. This is why the atonement is absolutely required, sin must be punished. Either it is punished on the sinner, or punished on Christ. One way or the other ALL sin is punished.
God shows His love to the elect by imputing their sin to Christ, even though they deserve wrath, they get mercy instead. This is the ultimate show of love.
Salvation is not a "decision" it is the gift of God. People that believe the notion that preachers are salesman that are looking for closing a sale do not understand the gospel at all. Salvation is not contingent on the sinner, it is contingent on the sovereign grace of God.
Your logical quest to understand God is only half the journey. You put doctrine, thats what you questioning, not god but doctrine. Your right: How Can God Hate Sin but Be Love At the Same Time? He cant, he is Love. To my beliefs Ignorance leads to sin, if you knew what you were doing was going to hurt others than you are going to sin... Ignorance leads to Sin not this moral incompetence inherent within us because, an ambitious couple wanted to know good and evil. We need morals because, we have been made ignorant by our own omission. Homosexuality, in the vast cosmos of the universe, is homosexuality really a crime in the eyes of God? No, murder is more of a crime than being gay or lesbian.
When you say "they deserve wrath" that is your ego speaking, if God is love and selfless and ultimately ego-less than because of selfless love, God would not give wrath to anyone rather, the only wrath accrued is the guilt a sinner would put unto themselves which this guilt (this don't look at me I am not worthy) causes separation, isn't Hell a separation of God and man? Thus, Hell is for those who want to be there but do not know they are there. The ultimate show of love, is unconditional love where the thought "you deserve to burn" is avoided altogether, love and compassion is there without cause it just is there.
Salvation actually is a decision and a gift... You must decide if you want that gift. The traveling preacher who preaches a message but does not act accordingly to it is a salesman, I am offended that you would think I don't understand the Gospel, perhaps the people who don't understand the Gospel are the ones who preach faith but don't have faith to follow in Christ teachings and nothing else.
Perhaps it is you who does not understand, let us not forget Jesus did say that I speak in Parables and sayings and those who here it as such do not understand his teachings... This means you need to go deeper to understand his message. You have an inner tradition and outer tradition and most are from the far outside, especially those fundamentalist evangelicals.
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"What people Don't Know Will Hurt them"
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primativezen
dream yogi
Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 132
Loc: sunny country
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: DieCommie]
#8308719 - 04/20/08 08:01 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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But have they ever proved one case of downward causation??
YES THIS WEBSITE JUST MADE A BONG RIP!!!!hahah sorry that was really loud and crazy
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Deadly, tasty, or bitter and spacey!
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist
Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Quote:
primativezen said:
that doesn't work..
how not?
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Felinor
PhilosophicalDreamer
Registered: 03/02/08
Posts: 680
Loc: Down Town China Town
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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But what i said works regardless eh?
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The world itself is the will to power - and nothing else! And you yourself are the will to power - and nothing else! ~Friedrich Nietzsche
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primativezen
dream yogi
Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 132
Loc: sunny country
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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It cannot be your destiny and not be your destiny. If the choice was your destiny, then the predetermined choice would have precluded the actual choice, because it was destiny - therefore there was no free will.
If its free will, there can be no destiny, because the choice is not known before the choice is made. It can't just end up in collective existence and therefore have been "destined". If the act was free-willed into existence and not "known", by the universe or God, before it was willed, then there can be no destiny here.
The action must be known before, but not obvious to the player (you and me) if it's destiny. It must not be known by anybody and operate outside of the system it is within to be free will. But you can't operate outside of the universe you are tied to. You are a product of your past. Think about how you have a good or bad day, all based on the past of that one day, and it can dictate your mood. Then apply that to your entire life, and you see it dictates every choice you make.
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Deadly, tasty, or bitter and spacey!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: Felinor]
#8310349 - 04/21/08 12:06 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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If free will exists most people reject it and opt for destiny.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 2 years, 8 months
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Make your choice your destiny and your destiny your choice.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: BlueCoyote]
#8310514 - 04/21/08 12:58 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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CHOOSE your destiny... Mortal Kombat FTW.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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godfather89
GnosticChristian
Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 49
Loc: Long Island, NY
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: deCypher]
#8311473 - 04/21/08 05:44 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said:
CHOOSE your destiny... Mortal Kombat FTW.
Flawless victory... (just felt like adding that in... )
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"What people Don't Know Will Hurt them"
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Felinor
PhilosophicalDreamer
Registered: 03/02/08
Posts: 680
Loc: Down Town China Town
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: godfather89]
#8317630 - 04/23/08 03:51 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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*aims a sniper*
boom cumshot er headshot
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The world itself is the will to power - and nothing else! And you yourself are the will to power - and nothing else! ~Friedrich Nietzsche
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godfather89
GnosticChristian
Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 49
Loc: Long Island, NY
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: Icelander]
#8320449 - 04/23/08 07:25 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
If free will exists most people reject it and opt for destiny.
That makes a pretty sick quote....
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"What people Don't Know Will Hurt them"
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Freewill vs. Destiny [Re: godfather89]
#8321094 - 04/23/08 09:41 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Jim Morrison sez: "I will not go, I prefer a feast of friends to the giant family"
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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