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Re: This dwarfs Exxon Valdez. [Re: Srirachi]
    #9494896 -

Leary_Ban said:
The "competition" is actually the same kind of competition AT&T has.



same with natural gas and most other utilities, the
'competition' is nothing more than billing agents, when the
phone companies were deregulated do you honestly believe there
was anything more than a change in letterhead

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Re: This dwarfs Exxon Valdez. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9494965 -

There was a change in the rates, Pris.  I now pay less than 2 cents a minute for long distance.  I used to pay 12 cents.


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Re: This dwarfs Exxon Valdez. [Re: Ferris]
    #9494968 -

Let's dig deep into this fun debate :smile:

So, this is the result of free market capitalism.  Perhaps.  It seems to make some sense:  the industry may have been recently deregulated, allowing them to operate under these sub-optimal conditions, which may or may not have led to this particular spill.  However, you cited that the cost cutting measures that (you assumed) led to this spill were (you assumed) probably done to help strengthen their company against competition.

However, if it's competition the company is worrying about, regulating them more (and thus, possibly preventing this incident) would only lead to a more difficult battle for the firm, and would likely result in the closing of the organization. 

Now, I pose this question:  Do you either ...
(a) regulate more heavily, and prevent the possibility of situations like this from arising, at the cost of your industry's competitiveness in an increasingly-global market.  If these regulations happen to cause the firm to be at such a disadvantage it was forced to shut down, then all the workers in this firm (and any other firm who is affected as much) would be out of work, thus cutting consumption expenditures in affected areas, thus draining more economic activity from the surrounding communities, etc.etc?.... or do you
(b) Keep the regulations only to what is necessary, allowing the firm to compete as efficiently as possible - allowing it to continue to generate taxes (federal, state & local), employ as many people as needed (in the other instance, decreased competitiveness could lead to a cutback in employment - even if the firm is able to stay open), and provide fuel for their local economy (as well as a service or product that is consumed by someone who demands it)?

I'm not going to say which I prefer, but i'm pretty sure you know which it is.


I'm not saying disasters like these aren't bad - they're terrible.  Anyone who says otherwise is ignorant or just plain mean.  Our national levels of production, employment, wealth come at a great cost:  the safety of our national environment, and sometimes (in instances like these) even our population.


Hi, I'm a libertarian.

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Re: This dwarfs Exxon Valdez. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9495018 -

in some areas maybe, rated decreased for a short period after
deregulation in the 70s but hit a steady increase shortly
after that, recently bell labs/systems was taken over by AT&T
again in addition to the other holdings like Lucent. That
rejoining may be partly responsible for the drop in service
prices, that and the fact fewer people are using home phones
since cell carriers are providing  better deals

there's been several companies that have cropped up to sell
'discounted' local service or basic service for customers
that cant get phones through the bell systems, again it's
still an AT&T or Bell truck that hooks you up, these
'competing' companies are simply billing agents buying blocks
of numbers to lease to those customers, it's all still AT&T
service and lines


here's a question... how does a company like TVA end up with
a $28bn debt, they're publicly traded, owned by government
and can set their own rates

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Re: This dwarfs Exxon Valdez. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9495025 -

To err is human; to fuck things up beyond all recognition is government.

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Re: This dwarfs Exxon Valdez. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9495047 -

I don't know about any of that.  I know two things:

1)  Prior to deregulation long distance rates were high, and climbing higher by the year.
2)  Post-deregulation rates dropped dramatically by things like phone cards and better technology.

It isn't rocket science to deduce that one had something to do with the other.  Unless, of course, you can point to similar price drops in other consumer services that were not de-regulated.

Can you?

Monopoly's are a bad thing.


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Re: This dwarfs Exxon Valdez. [Re: memes]
    #9495076 -

meams said:
Let's dig deep into this fun debate :smile:

So, this is the result of free market capitalism.  Perhaps.  It seems to make some sense:  the industry may have been recently deregulated, allowing them to operate under these sub-optimal conditions, which may or may not have led to this particular spill.  However, you cited that the cost cutting measures that (you assumed) led to this spill were (you assumed) probably done to help strengthen their company against competition.

However, if it's competition the company is worrying about, regulating them more (and thus, possibly preventing this incident) would only lead to a more difficult battle for the firm, and would likely result in the closing of the organization. 

Now, I pose this question:  Do you either ...
(a) regulate more heavily, and prevent the possibility of situations like this from arising, at the cost of your industry's competitiveness in an increasingly-global market.  If these regulations happen to cause the firm to be at such a disadvantage it was forced to shut down, then all the workers in this firm (and any other firm who is affected as much) would be out of work, thus cutting consumption expenditures in affected areas, thus draining more economic activity from the surrounding communities, etc.etc?.... or do you
(b) Keep the regulations only to what is necessary, allowing the firm to compete as efficiently as possible - allowing it to continue to generate taxes (federal, state & local), employ as many people as needed (in the other instance, decreased competitiveness could lead to a cutback in employment - even if the firm is able to stay open), and provide fuel for their local economy (as well as a service or product that is consumed by someone who demands it)?

I'm not going to say which I prefer, but i'm pretty sure you know which it is.


I'm not saying disasters like these aren't bad - they're terrible.  Anyone who says otherwise is ignorant or just plain mean.  Our national levels of production, employment, wealth come at a great cost:  the safety of our national environment, and sometimes (in instances like these) even our population.


Hi, I'm a libertarian.



I'd say, apply the same regulations to every company of the same category, and mandate that the newer companies factor in future costs of current waste production, thus negating any effect on competitiveness.

This would also possibly require that the GOP doesn't deregulate every EPA standard as soon as they get an office.


--------------------

Discuss Politics

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Re: This dwarfs Exxon Valdez. [Re: Ferris]
    #9495093 -

Things newer companies have to do that older companies don't gives the older copmanies an unfair advantage relative to their newer counterparts.  I would consider that an effect on competitiveness.

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Re: This dwarfs Exxon Valdez. [Re: memes]
    #9495110 -

Quote:
mandate that the newer companies factor in future costs of current waste production



That's perfectly do-able, by a few different methods.  A tax jumps out as the obvious method, but there are other less intrusive ways to accomplish it


--------------------

Discuss Politics

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Re: This dwarfs Exxon Valdez. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9495157 -

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Monopoly's are a bad thing.




I agree wholeheartedly, they are a bad thing but dont fool
yourself into believing that the infrastructure that AT&T  or
the Southern Company has put into place is being given away in
all this 'monopoly busting', those monopolies still exist they
simply put up the facade of being in competition with others

why can Shell Oil or BP/Ammoco not grossly undersell Exxon/Mobil

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Re: This dwarfs Exxon Valdez. [Re: Ferris]
    #9495165 -

Cool.  I'll put the word "tax" into my last post to see if that changes anything...

meams said:
A tax newer companies have to do that older companies don't gives the older copmanies an unfair advantage relative to their newer counterparts.  I would consider that an effect on competitiveness.



hrm.  Nope, doesn't change anything.  In fact, a tax that newer companies would have to pay that older companies wouldn't completly negates your recommendation, which I've quoted below (relevant wording is underlined):

Quote:
Ferris said:I'd say, apply the same regulations to every company of the same category, and mandate that the newer companies factor in future costs of current waste production, thus negating any effect on competitiveness.




So either i'm confused, or you're contradicting your previous suggestions.  Please correct me if i'm wrong (wouldn't be surprised if i was, i'm fucked up)

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