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ralph nader...
    #9422475 -

EDIT ..since the mods have refused to delete this thread.. i have changed to topic to reflect the discussion...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Edited by Annapurna1 (12/18/08 08:10 PM)

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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #9422482 -

y wont his fame just die alrdy


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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: Coaster]
    #9422564 -

actually i think it has..kind of...but ppl might still think of the median voter as JTP..even if they dont remember who JTP was...

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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #9422603 -

If you seriously believe that Joe the Plumber was just some random guy and not an obvious plant by the McCain campaign, then...  I don't really know what to tell you.

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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: it stars saddam]
    #9422611 -

ya everything was a setup


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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: Coaster]
    #9422653 -

Coaster said:
ya everything was a setup



I doubt it, but what is the relevance if it was?


Just like all the ad hominems people threw at Joe as well as defeating his premise (that he was going to but a buisness of such charecter)- none of that matters.  The fact is that Obama's plan would hurt people like Joe who were buying a buisness of sufficient size. 


Whether you think that change that produces that effect is net good or bad is surely up for debate.  What I don't understand is the level of hatred and nastiness hurled at that guy.

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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: it stars saddam]
    #9422678 -

it stars saddam said:
If you seriously believe that Joe the Plumber was just some random guy and not an obvious plant by the McCain campaign, then...  I don't really know what to tell you.


yes..JTP was a plant.. and his name wasnt even joe.. both of these facts were broadcast on MSNBC...however..the JTP==average joe frame had already been established..at which point facts generally dont matter...fortunately..the meme didnt propagate fast enough to deliver the election to the repugs...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: johnm214]
    #9422809 -

> What I don't understand is the level of hatred and nastiness hurled at that guy.

Or in general towards Republicans, McCain, and especially Palin.  If the same type of hatred were hurled against Obama, people would castigated from society.  I've pointed out the double standard time and time again, but those filled with bitterness refuse to accept their bigotry.  Of course, such hatred helps maintain the two party status quo, keeping people voting for the lesser evil out of fear rather than branching out to a third party.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #9423292 -

Annapurna1 said:
this thread isnt about JTP.. but rather im curious as to whether or not the repugs..despite losing the election..have nevertheless succeeded in redefining the median voter as JTP and sarah palin...thx...


Whatever are you babbling about this time?  Here's some info on the median Obama voter.
http://www.howobamagotelected.com/#wilson
Quote:
35 % of McCain voters got 10 or more of 13 questions correct.

18% of Obama voters got 10 or more of 13 questions correct.

McCain voters knew which party controls congress by a 63-27 margin.

Obama voters got the “congressional control” question wrong by 43-41.

Those that got "congressional control" correct voted 56-43 for McCain.

Those that got "congressional control" wrong voted 65-35 for Obama.

The poll also asked voters to name all the media sources from which they got information.


There's a meme for you.  People who voted for Obama are idiots.  Thank you in advance.  At least JTP has some understanding of the issues.  Obama voters?  Not so much.
He is not a plant.  Only the most deranged of nitwits would believe that the Republicans somehow managed to herd Obama into Joe's backyard.  Only the most deranged.  Welcome back anna, we missed you always.


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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9423640 -

In an issue of the American Spector, joe the plumber was asked to give book reccomendations for the hollidays and one of the ones he gave was

"The Theory of Money and Credit (Ludwig von Mises): "It brought monetary theory into the mainstream of economic analysis. It is important reading for these troubled times.""

joe the plumber > socialist hippies


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: d33p]
    #9423909 -

As K the Contractor I resent these twatwaffles who think everybody stops learning after they go to work (unless they are working journalists, of course).  I started with a better education than they will finish with.


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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: Seuss]
    #9423986 -

Seuss said:
> What I don't understand is the level of hatred and nastiness hurled at that guy.

Or in general towards Republicans, McCain, and especially Palin.  If the same type of hatred were hurled against Obama, people would castigated from society.  I've pointed out the double standard time and time again, but those filled with bitterness refuse to accept their bigotry.  Of course, such hatred helps maintain the two party status quo, keeping people voting for the lesser evil out of fear rather than branching out to a third party.





EDIT ..ppl dont refuse to vote for 3rd party POTUS candidates out of fear.. but rather because the electoral college system makes it impossible for such a candidate to win...



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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Edited by Annapurna1 (12/13/08 02:47 PM)

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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: Seuss]
    #9424387 -

Seuss said:
Of course, such hatred helps maintain the two party status quo, keeping people voting for the lesser evil out of fear rather than branching out to a third party.


Not me.  I voted for Ralph Nader and will continue to do so as long as he continues to run for president.  I believe that Nader is one of the most honest politicians in the world today and I consider him an American hero.

The idea that voting for a third party candidate is a "throwaway vote" is one that has been carefully crafted by the powers that be.  Too many people continue to vote for the "lesser of two evils" as you put it, mostly out of fear that if they didn't, it might allow victory for the greater of two evils.  We need to eliminate this kind of thinking.  People need to break free of the two-party monopoly and have the courage to vote for the candidate which they truly believe in.  Of course, the mainstream media is going to do everything they can to discourage us from doing so (note how the third party candidates were not even allowed to take part in any of the debates), but fuck them.  With the internet, we have no excuse not to research every presidential candidate on the ballot and decide for ourselves.

As Ralph Nader said, "The lesser of two evils is not good enough for the American people."

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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: it stars saddam]
    #9425270 -

I agree that Nader is one of the few decent politicians out there and I have endless admiration for him. But if he hadn't run in 2000 then Bush wouldn't have narrowly defeated Gore, and the world would be quite a different place.

The results of the 2000 election clearly show that vote spoiling is a real effect and can have drastic results. The US electoral system needs to change.


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I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: zouden]
    #9425448 -

JOE THE PLUMBER???? joe the helper..he wasn't even a fucking apprentice.


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Spawn Ratio Calculator
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7803673#7803673
I only grow edibles.Any info I give ONLY applies to gourmet mushrooms.

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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: nw_shroomy]
    #9425607 -

and his name isnt even joe either...its sam..as in sham...

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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: zouden]
    #9425724 -

zouden said:
I agree that Nader is one of the few decent politicians out there and I have endless admiration for him. But if he hadn't run in 2000 then Bush wouldn't have narrowly defeated Gore, and the world would be quite a different place.


It was shown that more people who voted for Nader would've otherwise voted for Bush than they would have Gore.  That Nader is responsible for Gore losing the election is a myth which persists due to the democrats' desire for someone or something to blame for the fact that the presidency was stolen from them.  It's unfortunate that a great guy like Ralph Nader has to be the scapegoat.

However, even IF what you're saying was true and Nader was solely responsible for the Bush presidency because he siphoned votes away from the democrats, I would still be glad that he ran and would vote for him again if the hypothetical scenario were to repeat itself.  In order to destroy the two-party monopoly, we have to be willing to take risks.  In my opinion, the courage to vote for the candidate that you truly believe in is far more noble than voting for "the lesser of two evils" out of fear.

Also, I suspect that your assumption that the world would be a "quite different place" had Gore been elected might be a tad bit idealistic.

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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: it stars saddam]
    #9425744 -

it stars saddam said:
It was shown that more people who voted for Nader would've otherwise voted for Bush than they would have Gore.


I cannot believe that.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: zouden]
    #9428375 -

zouden said:
I agree that Nader is one of the few decent politicians out there and I have endless admiration for him. But if he hadn't run in 2000 then Bush wouldn't have narrowly defeated Gore, and the world would be quite a different place.

The results of the 2000 election clearly show that vote spoiling is a real effect and can have drastic results. The US electoral system needs to change.


This interpretation of vote spoiling is a poorly framed placement of blame. There are innumerable factors behind the loss of an election, and trying to guilt-trip an alternate candidate - especially one deemed admirable! - and his supporters is ignoring more important reasons.

For instance, if Gore was quite a different candidate, a better and more admirable one, he would have deserved more votes and won. Maybe Democrats should have chosen a more charismatic candidate. Maybe more of the populace would have actually voted if they weren't subjected to televised dualistic political simulacra.

Gore spoiled the votes that should have gone to Nader, from a Nader voter's perspective. Even practically, I can't see how one can admire a candidate and desire the end of single-member districts and the two-party system while blaming that candidate for standing in the way of one party's victory. As entrenched as our two parties are, it seems just as difficult to rework the system to give another guy a chance as it is to vote for another guy at all - that other guy would be one of the few to try to rework the system.

Blaming the third parties just forces them further out of the picture. We should be building more support for them so that victory becomes realistic.


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No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.

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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: zannennagara]
    #9428545 -

I'm in complete agreement.  Though I have been apathetic towards politics for most of my life, I feel that it is imperative that we somehow expose and undermine the two-party monopoly to the greatest extent possible.  I am confident that several people would find a third party candidate whose views are far more consistent with their own than those of either of the two Republicrats that we're forced to "choose" between.  I don't mean to sound indignant, but I find it so frustrating that a lot of people would rather not be bothered by having to think about (or *gasp* read about) any candidates who aren't on television 24/7.

Even if I were to somehow introduce a friend or family member to a candidate whom they felt accurately represented their political beliefs, I would still have to overcome their doubts as to whether or not it would be a "throwaway vote."  If people didn't play along with the two-party charade so willingly, the concept of a "throwaway vote" would be irrelevant if not outright non-existent.  I mean, honestly, did any of you watch the debates?  I didn't feel strongly about either of the candidates involved (it was like choosing between Coca-Cola and Pepsi), but they were literally embarrassing to watch.  It's such a fucking charade.  This entire election was a complete joke.

I do, however, have a question for those of you who either dislike Ralph Nader or are committed to preserving the two-party monopoly:  Do you agree with the decision to not allow Ralph Nader (or any of the other third party candidates) to participate in the debates?  If so, why do you feel this way?  I'm genuinely curious.

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