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Re: Dow in free fall [Re: phi1618]
    #9283738 -

Quote:
There's an inherent problem in regulation that only insiders to a system understand it well enough to regulate it -



Things are f'd up now, and there seems to be no end to who is getting in line for bail outs. Looks like the railroads are now after a piece of that pie.

I agree with Zorbman in that, economics doesn't seem to be all that complicated really and that economists like to make it seem so by using a lot of industry jargon people are not familiar with.

I don't fault the regulators here though. I fault the unregulated market.

Lets get to the first domino that fell. It was the unregulated  sale of credit default insurance in the unregulated hedge fund markets. For one, how can regulators do their job, if there is a shadow global market that trades over $680 trillion a year, they are not allowed to regulate????????

I would bet most grown adults would understand the concept of what credit default insurance is. We are all familiar with those three words.

How many adults pre-financial crisis, could tell you what a credit swap was? Probably less then .01% of the population. It's credit default insurance.

How many knew such a market with astronomical volumes even existed without being regulated?

Insurance by law is suppose to be regulated. The key regulation is that they cannot over leverage themselves. They have to maintain x amount of capital to make sure they will be able to pay out on claims.

Credit default insurers of the swaps, were allowed to leverage themselves to the nearest black hole. They could insure trillions of assets with nothing behind them. They were gambling in an extremely HIGH risk game.

Had these swap insurers been regulated, fewer banks would have been able to sell off these "bundles" of high risk mortgages, snuck in with low risk loans.  If they knew they would be stuck with these high risk mortages, they would have been giving far fewer out. Had they done that, it would had slowed the high demand for housing that created the housing boom.

When the high risk loans started to default, the credit default insurers didn't have the capital to pay up. That's how the banks started to collapse.

As homes went into for closure at a dizzying rate, the glut of inventory started to devalue home prices.

At the same time, banks had to start clamping down on issuing credit, making it harder for people to buy the glut of inventory and harder to keep their business flowing. Home owners loosing equity, and business loosing available credit lines, lost spending power and confidence. That is all what started the economies down fall.

These are the first two domino's that toppled the financial markets and economy.

It's easy to understand when I explain it like this. It is not rocket science.


http://www.magnum.com/hedgefunds/abouthedgefunds.asp

It wasn't just the toxic bundles called swaps that played a role. There is another player called derivitives.

Quote:
Derivatives” are  bank creations. The basic idea is that you can insure an investment you want to go up by betting it will go down. The simplest form of derivative is a short sale: you can place a bet that some asset you own will go down, so that you are covered whichever way the asset moves.



http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8634

Here is a link for a quick understanding of hedge fund markets for anyone interested.


http://www.magnum.com/hedgefunds/abouthedgefunds.asp



This is crazy stuff. Even though Bernake is an economist that understands why we have regulations and where they are and how the markets work, he supported this shadow market being kept unregulated. He is largely to blame here and is the last guy who I think should be, behind orchestrating this bailout. I think he needs to be behind bars or at least shit canned for not doing his job as the Federal Reserve Chairman. His job is to keep our markets stable. So why did he put up blocks when people were demanding regulations in the shadow market?

Quote:
Credit Default Swaps are private bets, and the Federal Reserve from the time of Alan Greenspan has insisted that regulators keep hands off.



 
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8634


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Dow in free fall [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #9283840 -

gettinjiggywithit said:
Quote:
There's an inherent problem in regulation that only insiders to a system understand it well enough to regulate it -



Things are f'd up now, and there seems to be no end to who is getting in line for bail outs. Looks like the railroads are now after a piece of that pie.

I agree with Zorbman in that, economics doesn't seem to be all that complicated really and that economists like to make it seem so by using a lot of industry jargon people are not familiar with.

I don't fault the regulators here though. I fault the unregulated market.

Lets get to the first domino that fell. It was the unregulated  sale of credit default insurance in the unregulated hedge fund markets. For one, how can regulators do their job, if there is a shadow global market that trades over $680 trillion a year, they are not allowed to regulate????????




Bullshit.  The first domino that fell was the affirmative actions loans to bums who then defaulted.  $680 Trillion?  Is there even that much money in the whole world?  At any rate, I googled "credit default swaps 680 trillion".

The top entry was this:
Quote:
Oct 21, 2008 ... And for Credit default Swaps, a derivative in the center of the ... has exploded to a fictitious value of roughly 680 trillion dollar. ...
theresathomas.blogtownhall.com/2008/10/21/kemah_596_trillion_how_can_derivatives.thtml -



I went to it and found this:
Quote:
The page you requested cannot be found.



Now, I don't know where you got that number but the google entry that says this:
"fictitious value of roughly 680 trillion dollar." might offer a clue.  Every other mention of credit default swaps cite much lower numbers.


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Re: Dow in free fall [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9283974 -

What you quoted put the swaps at the center. The swaps are not the whole 681 trillion volume being traded. That volume includes everything. The CDS have a volume of around 35 trillion.

I know the bill you cited allowed for the banks to give out the high risk loans. I am aware of the arm twisting and pressure that was put on the banks to give them out.

None the less, if there were no buyers/insurers for the loans, the banks would not have been able to give out so many, under current regulations or they would have had themselves over leveraged.

The banks could have used asset to debt ratio regulations as an excuse not to hand them out like candy.

Because of the shadow market that was buying these loans from the bank, and securing the buys for the purchasers, the banks were free and able to give them out like candy, under that bill.

The bill you cite is a key domino, but alone, could not have done this without the assist of the shadow markets, domino behind it.

Without the bill, the shadows markets wouldn't have had the volume of play they had to allow for the losses they sustained.

I see how you are seeing it.

The more thought I put into the analogy, it's more like they were one domino bundle in themselves.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Dow in free fall [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #9284039 -

I want to add to the above that I too have seen varying figures on the volume traded in the shadow market.

The point remains that weather in the tens of trillions to hundreds of trillions, it's an obscene number to be going unregulated. Especially when you consider that Paulsen says, it's the foundation of the global economy.

I will add that no one really even knows the exact number for sure, because the trades are private, and it's unregulated.

Even Paulsen was at a loss for the current damage assessment on the toxic bundles because it can be weeks to months before the transactions are even recorded.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Dow in free fall [Re: Seuss]
    #9284092 -

My problem with the election was the otards that refused to acknowledge that their blessed candidate wasn't the next coming of Jesus.

Word.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Dow in free fall [Re: phi1618]
    #9286717 -

Much of the problem then was the price fixing of gold versus silver.  Also, we were taken completely off the gold standard by Richard Nixon in 1971.  We are starting to see the collapse of the dollar because of government created inflation.  The causation of the Great Depression can be linked to various robber barons (i.e. Rockefellers etc.) who created an artifical boom in the market created by the ability for investors to "buy on the margin".  When all the margins were called in simulaneously overextended investors defaulted and rich assholes bought out the marketplace for pennies on the dollar.  You people would do well to consider America's founding father's exhortations to NEVER ALLOW CENTRAL BANKS TO TAKE CONTROL OF YOUR MONEY.  The federal reserve system in America is unconstitutional. 

What you guys should look at is that the government should not have the ability to print money OUT OF THIN AIR!

Checkout mises.org for education in free market economics!
They have a wealth of information in the media and literature sections.

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Re: Dow in free fall [Re: Mr.Al]
    #9286760 -

Just because the founding fathers were against the idea of a central bank, doesn't mean it's a bad idea. We know a hell of a lot more about economics than we did back then. And we're obviously still learning.

I still have yet to see a compelling argument for a return to the gold standard. For me, it makes no sense that money should be fixed to a yellow metal.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Dow in free fall [Re: zouden]
    #9286867 -

Fiat currency and central banking is responsible for the destruction of the Roman Empire and British Empire.  The collapse of the Roman Empire led to the DARK AGES.  Fiat currency collapsed France's economy twice, Spain once, and the United States (Abraham Lincoln - 13000% inflation).  Fiat currency historically speaking always destroys the middle class, leads to warfare (and other abuses of power), as well as total economic collapse.  No exceptions.

Please educate me, learned sirs, upon the causes of inflation.

Edited by Mr.Al (11/21/08 07:14 PM)

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Re: Dow in free fall [Re: Mr.Al]
    #9286990 -

The Romans had fiat currency? Then why were their coins made of gold?

>destruction of the Roman Empire

Overstretching of the military combined with corrupt central governance led to an inability to defend against increasingly aggressive incursions by the Germanic tribes.

>and British Empire

The British Empire wasn't destroyed. It was sacrificed.

Neither of these events were caused by fiat currency. Please, provide a better argument, one that doesn't rely on revisionist history.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Dow in free fall [Re: zouden]
    #9287035 -

Auto-Summary
The post discusses the inherent flaws in fiat money systems, using historical examples to illustrate the consequences of such systems. It highlights how governments tend to print excessive amounts of money, leading to inflation and economic instability. The Federal Reserve, owned by major banks, is criticized for maintaining the illusion of credibility in the system. The author argues that the current fiat money system is unsustainable and that individuals should protect their assets by investing in gold and silver, as they have historically retained their value during periods of fiat currency failure.

Prepare for copy and paste evidence!


Fiat Money Systems
Richard J. Greene
The main reason that the masses ignore the inevitable failure of fiat money systems, such as that which is employed by the US and virtually the rest of the world today, is because just prior to their demise, they have more recently been remembered for generating a widespread period of prosperity that has enriched its supporters, if not the masses as well.

The fundamental flaw in a fiat money system can be summed up as human nature. When the going gets rough, the rough start printing. Governments cannot be trusted, to not print too much money when it is not linked to a scarce commodity such as gold. How much is too much money? There are many debates about that but the unqualified answer is when the system is brought down. It should be obvious to even the casual observer that we have reached a point in time where even the slightest economic disappointment is met with a deluge of additional paper. One should be able to take a step back, peruse the scene with a calm head, and be able to judge that there is a lot more money being printed than there is economic activity to offset this increase. The writings of the noted economist, Dr. Kurt Richenbacher, put numbers to this unsustainable trend. In his monthly report, "The Richenbacher Letter", he has shown that over the past several years, it has taken increasingly higher levels of debt to generate each additional dollar of GDP growth. First, it was $3 of debt for every dollar of GDP growth, then $4 of debt, then $5, then $7, and on and on. This policy is highly inflationary and the whole system depends on maintaining confidence in the dollar. Confidence has been aided by Government statistics that have been massaged and manipulated to the point of being ridiculous. If this recovery had any substance wouldn't we have added jobs by now? Could it be that much of the recovery is a product of one time cost cutting? The masses are blinded by the recent successes of this system and its ability to, so far, avoid an unpleasant event on the economic front, but at what cost?

It is most difficult to judge exactly when this system will implode; but is most certain that it will. There is a limit to how far this type of system can be pushed. Robert Prechter, in his February issue of "The Elliott Wave Theorist", gives the example of lowering the price of a Jaguar car to stimulate purchases, with deeper and deeper discounts, until you could not pay someone to take a Jaguar; everyone has all they need. It is the same with money and credit and the Fed. They lower rates and lower rates; stores provide financing with no money down and no payments until January 2006; car companies provide money back, etc. etc. God help us when January 2006 arrives, these retailers will not be paid in anything resembling the prior value of the dollars they charged for an item, if at all. There has been an unprecedented amount of debt and credit extended, far in excess of anything we have seen in prior fiat money systems, and the eventual result will be defaults, deflation, and depression. There will also be an accelerating redistribution of wealth, most surely to result in social unrest. The extremes reached under this fiat money system has been perpetuated much longer and deeper than any I have studied, and I believe this is due to the fact that it is consumption-based, and Joe Six-pack whom represents the masses, has been sucked in by the lure of easy, unearned consumption. He is totally uneducated in economic matters, trusts his government, and is dangerously over-exposed financially as is the entire nation.

The Federal Reserve is not a part of the US Government, which seems to be little known. It is owned by a collection of the world's biggest banks. Alan Greenspan is a pawn of the banks and the politicians, and has certainly earned his place as the greatest abuser of fiat money of all-time by many multiples. He has pulled out all the stops to maintain the illusions of fiat money credibility, and while the system is doomed, there is still time for individuals to save themselves, but they need to act quickly. We have already seen a scary decline in monetary aggregates since last September, despite massive money creation, asset bubbles, and promises to keep the cost of credit at below market rates for extended periods of time. This just leads to further misallocations of capital. Analysts, investors, and in particular, the media, hang on Alan Greenspan's every word when he speaks publicly. Investors then run out to leverage up on the carry trade, borrowing short to buy long treasuries. Their trust in this mouthpiece is comical regarding professionals, and sad, regarding Joe Six-pack, who has little chance of understanding the dangerous situation he is in. Protection of this fiat money system has reached a dangerous crossroads. Global derivatives have climbed from $130 Trillion to $170 Trillion in the past year alone, which is a one-year increase of four times the entire GDP of the US economy. Politicians and bankers may stop at nothing to keep the charade going a little bit longer. Barring that, the best way to protect your assets, is through ownership of Gold and Silver. Judge for yourself by history what actions you should now take.

Examples of Prior Attempts at Fiat Money Systems 20 BC - Roman Empire - After a highly successful period of empire building, Augustus, ordered mines in Spain and France to be mined 24 hours a day to support his tremendous infrastructure costs. Money was increased faster than production, however, creating inflation. He cut back on coinage, but later his stepson put coinage into government coffers, which was eventually abused by emperors that followed him including: Caligula, Claudius, and Nero. Their lavish spending on consumption, (sound familiar?) wiped out most of Rome's riches when Nero got the idea to debase the currency in 64 AD by putting less silver into coins. This allowed the emperor to continue his lavish spending, building increasingly large trade deficits with Rome's colonies, and causing the wealthy to either hide their wealth or flee from the confiscating government. This did not have a happy ending as we now know.
910 AD - China experiments with paper money - It takes several hundred years but the system is abandoned due to unacceptable levels of inflation as money printing exceeded production.

1500'S - Spain gathered gold from Mexico and the new world, becoming the richest nation in the world. Instead of developing their own economy they sent gold to trade partners in a consumption orgy not dissimilar to the US today. Then they went on a military rampage to extinguish pirates, (terrorists?) in an imperialistic march into other lands, dropping any distinction between terrorists, (I mean pirates) and the countries that harbor them. Their excessive consumption ran through their gold hoard, so they turned to financing the war with debt, bankrupting them.

1716 - John Law convinced France to use paper money and declared all taxes must be paid with it to gain acceptance. The idea snowballed and paper money became more desired than coin. It led to excessive printing, additional moneymaking schemes and fraud. Exaggerated values coinciding with money printing eventually blew up the system.

1791 - The French Government again tries its hand with a paper currency. The Government confiscated land from aristocrats and issued "assignats" which paid interest against the properties. Land was auctioned off in exchange for these notes, inflation rose to 13,000% by 1795. Napoleon ended the revolution and replaced the "assignats" with the gold franc, which set off over a century of prosperity for France. In the 1930's Socialists came to power and brought the Bank of France fully into the Government. They quickly removed gold backing of the currency and made the franc a managed fiat currency. In only 12 years the currency lost 99% of its value.

1853 - Argentina went on a gold standard and thrived for close to 100 years. A central bank was created in 1932, beginning a long downfall. Juan Peron took charge in a 1943 coup and depleted reserves causing trade to fall. Argentina continued on this path of paper money, falling from the eighth largest economy to a mere shadow of its former self, which it has not recovered from as of today.

1862 - Abraham Lincoln passed the Legal Tender Act allowing the Government to issue paper money, backed by nothing but government promises. A huge inflation transpired that caused the practice to fall out of favor until the Federal Reserve System was put in place in 1913.

1923 - Weimar Republic - After World War I, Germany, crippled from its loss in the war, was held accountable for its war reparations. The country was destitute so found no other choice but to simply print the money in massive quantities to pay the reparations. The result was the plundering of the entire middle class, wiping out all value of savings, and paving the way for Hitler in front of an angry public.

The US dollar went off the gold standard in stages:
1934 - President Roosevelt revalued gold from its official price of $20.67 to $35 an ounce in an attempt to print more money, with the hope that this would lift us out of the depression.

1944 - The Bretton Woods Agreement was made to treat the dollar as a substitute for gold, since a dollar was defined as 1/35th of an ounce of gold, which was pegged at $35 per ounce. The door was opened worldwide to print money; foreign nations could print if they had gold or US dollars.

1971 - President Nixon closed the gold window, ending convertibility of dollars to gold. This came about because the US was printing too many dollars and living beyond its means. Foreign nations led by France, recognized this and began demanding payment in gold, breaking the system as the US experienced a major gold drain.

Look how long a fiat currency can thrive. Between 1948-1969 world money reserves increased only 55%, since that time they have shot up more than 2000%. See any connection? Also note that after Nixon's move, gold went up over 25 times in less than ten years. Was it discounting the unprecedented money printing that was about to unfold? A brief perusal of history will show that when a nation went on a gold standard it was the beginning of a very long period of that nation thriving. When a country went to a fiat currency there was a period, as long or longer than 30 years, in which it thrived even more. However, during that period of prosperity on a fiat currency, excesses began to build. Once they have built up to extreme levels, it is a very dangerous time. When levels of debt become too excessive, an increasing amount of the rewards of production; profits, must go to servicing debt. When the servicing of debt consumes all of the profits of production, it finally consumes production itself. This is the real culprit for the loss of jobs domestically. As more of the economy shifts from real production of goods, to the pushing of various forms of paper, citizens lose jobs and live in more dangerous times.

We have reached that time. The above chart shows that even after a 20 year bear market gold is the only form of money that has retained its value. The dollar, one of the historically strongest of currencies lost over 90% of its purchasing power as of 2000.

Gold has held its value over very long periods of time, unlike any former or present fiat currency. Gold and gold stocks can be more volatile than any asset class; particularly at a time when fiat currencies are on their last legs. Gold is the enemy of fiat currencies because it eventually reveals the truth, the fraud behind the fiat currency. As it emerges in a primary bull market, gold will have to weather the attack of the proponents of the fiat currency, as they cling to its withering life. If you look at history, you will understand which will win, and you should move to protect yourself as the mountains of credit and paper money, gravitate to their true value. BUY GOLD AND SILVER!


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Fiat Money -Toilet Paper Money

The history of fiat money, to put it kindly, has been one of failure. In fact, EVERY fiat currency since the Romans first began the practice in the first century has ended in devaluation and eventual collapse, of not only the currency, but of the economy that housed the fiat currency as well.

Why would it be different here in the U.S.? Well, in actuality, it hasn't been. In fact, in our short history, we've already had several failed attempts at using paper currency, and it is my opinion that today's dollars are no different than the continentals issued during the Revolutionary War. But I will get into that in a moment. In the meantime, I will show you that fiat currencies have not been successful, and the only aspect of fiat currencies that have stood the test of time is the inability of political systems to prevent the devaluation and debasement of this toilet paper money by letting the printing presses run wild.
Fiat Money -Rome -- The Denarius

Although Rome didn't actually have paper money, it provided one of the first examples of true debasement of a currency. The denarius, Rome's coinage of the time, was, essentially, pure silver at the beginning of the first century A.D. By A.D. 54, Emperor Nero had entered the scene, and the denarius was approximately 94% silver. By around A.D.100, the denarius' silver content was down to 85%.

Emperors that succeeded Nero liked the idea of devaluing their currency in order to pay the bills and increase their own wealth. By 218, the denarius was down to 43% silver, and in 244, Emperor Philip the Arab had the silver content dropped to 0.05%. Around the time of Rome's collapse, the denarius contained only 0.02% silver and virtually nobody accepted it as a medium of exchange or a store of value.

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Re: Dow in free fall [Re: Mr.Al]
    #9287079 -

John Law is a great example. But it's important to realise that all attempts at fiat currency were made knowing full well what happened in Law's case - he was incredibly famous, and he still is the richest man in all of history. So there was much opposition to trying that again. Yet try it they did. Finally, in the 20th century it seemed like they "got it right" and it stuck. Maybe they didn't get all the kinks worked out, but regardless, one thing is clear: economists have been pushing for fiat currency for hundreds of years. This is because it's a very good idea. When it works. That's the side of the story that articles like the above don't show. There's a reason that, despite its drawbacks, we keep returning to fiat currency.

You can push for America to return the gold standard if you like. It won't last.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Dow in free fall [Re: zouden]
    #9287117 -

zouden said:
John Law is a great example. But it's important to realise that all attempts at fiat currency were made knowing full well what happened in Law's case - he was incredibly famous, and he still is the richest man in all of history. So there was much opposition to trying that again. Yet try it they did. Finally, in the 20th century it seemed like they "got it right" and it stuck. Maybe they didn't get all the kinks worked out, but regardless, one thing is clear: economists have been pushing for fiat currency for hundreds of years. This is because it's a very good idea. When it works. That's the side of the story that articles like the above don't show. There's a reason that, despite its drawbacks, we keep returning to fiat currency.

You can push for America to return the gold standard if you like. It won't last.



WHat?!?

I have just shown to you numerous historical instances in which fiat currency led to total economic collapse.  The only instance in which gold or silver has not worked is when it is devalued by the addition of worthless filler metal, thus becoming a FIAT "CURRENCY".

Where do you think the word counterfeit comes from???
Why do you think people frown upon other people printing funny-money in their basements.

How is the GOVERNMENT any different from some jerk printing "counterfiat" money in his basement.

Learned neuroscientist, please elucidate the moral difference between some random jerk printing the funny money and the government doing exactly the SAME THING!!!

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Re: Dow in free fall [Re: Phred]
    #9287184 -

"The DOW went up 494 points today on news that Hillary Clinton accepted the Secretary of State position in the Obama administration..." 

If we are to believe the child-like economic 'analysis' that correlation is causation, Hillary is now good for the economy!  If however, we are to recognize the wild swings in the stock market are indications of major systemic problems (brought about by DECADES of market and monetary interference by BOTH major political parties) in a system that is collapsing, we may begin to see beyond the rhetoric resulting from simplistic binary thought patterns.

It seems that many on this board are enamored with the false dichotomy of Democrat and Republican, sort of like those who choose one crime family over the other...  The Genovese and the Gambinos have been competing for decades to control our neighborhood, and there are those who still refuse to question the virtue in supporting one over the other?  The differences between the modern Democrats and Republicans are of minute degrees and slightly different emphasis.  It is naive to tell ourselves or to argue otherwise.


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And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'

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Re: Dow in free fall [Re: Trepiodos]
    #9287201 -

You have renewed my faith in fellow human beings!!

You can see beyond the propaganda and pseudo-economics!

Thank you!!!:)

No reply from the learned neuroscientist.  I am a very sad panda bear!!

Neuro guy, I await your response in the A.M.!!

Edited by Mr.Al (11/21/08 08:14 PM)

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Re: Dow in free fall [Re: Trepiodos]
    #9287485 -

Trepiodos said:
"The DOW went up 494 points today on news that Hillary Clinton accepted the Secretary of State position in the Obama administration..." 

If we are to believe the child-like economic 'analysis' that correlation is causation, Hillary is now good for the economy!  If however, we are to recognize the wild swings in the stock market are indications of major systemic problems (brought about by DECADES of market and monetary interference by BOTH major political parties) in a system that is collapsing, we may begin to see beyond the rhetoric resulting from simplistic binary thought patterns.

It seems that many on this board are enamored with the false dichotomy of Democrat and Republican, sort of like those who choose one crime family over the other...  The Genovese and the Gambinos have been competing for decades to control our neighborhood, and there are those who still refuse to question the virtue in supporting one over the other?  The differences between the modern Democrats and Republicans are of minute degrees and slightly different emphasis.  It is naive to tell ourselves or to argue otherwise.





UMMMMMMMM, I think it has more to do with this guy:

Quote:
JOHN adds: More good news: Obama reportedly will name Tim Geithner of the New York Federal Reserve as Treasury Secretary. If that report is right, it's an excellent appointment. The stock market jumped 5 percent on the news. That's terrific, but it also makes you wonder: given that response to Geithner's nomination, how credible is the Obama camp's insistence that the 20 percent drop we've seen since his election has nothing to do with businessmen's concern about the impact of Obama's policies on the economy?



http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2008/11/022123.php


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Re: Dow in free fall [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9287567 -

So because a blog decides that's why the market jumped, it actually becomes the truth? Not gonna cut it...

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Re: Dow in free fall [Re: Redstorm]
    #9287579 -

I thought it was just as, if not more, likely than Hillary being the cause.


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Re: Dow in free fall [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9287596 -

Well, if I think something is more likely than unicorns and leprechauns, that doesn't necessarily make it actually likely, does it?

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Re: Dow in free fall [Re: Redstorm]
    #9288153 -

Yeah, right.... the market reacts more to the announcement of a new SecState-in-waiting - which has been pretty much an open secret all week anyway - more than it reacts to the announcement of a SecTreasury-in-waiting who is an actual capitalist well-respected by the business community.

Because the SecState has just oh so much more impact on economic matters than SecTreasury. </sarc>

I do believe this is Obama's first selection not a barking Leftie. Hopefully he'll choose to keep Gates on as SecDef, at least for a while.





Phred


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Re: Dow in free fall [Re: Phred]
    #9288244 -

Phred said:
Yeah, right.... the market reacts more to the announcement of a new SecState-in-waiting - which has been pretty much an open secret all week anyway - more than it reacts to the announcement of a SecTreasury-in-waiting who is an actual capitalist well-respected by the business community.

Because the SecState has just oh so much more impact on economic matters than SecTreasury. </sarc>

I do believe this is Obama's first selection not a barking Leftie. Hopefully he'll choose to keep Gates on as SecDef, at least for a while.





Phred



A capitalist from the Federal Reserve. Just like Alan Greenspan, eh?


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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