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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
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Free speech falls prey to 'human rights'
    #1826839 - 08/18/03 04:59 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

http://www.nationalpost.com/commentary/story.html?id=18E39E85-588D-4A2E-A59B-43352407DF70

Free speech falls prey to 'human rights'

Ian Hunter
National Post


Monday, August 18, 2003

Time was when freedom of speech was considered the cornerstone of democracy. No more -- at least not in Canada. Of course, Canadians are not very keen on democracy, either, being content to be ruled in perpetuity by a combination of courts and the Liberal party.

Freedom of speech is protected by the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, and by Section 2 of our Charter of Rights. Everyone likes rights on paper; for that matter, we like free speech, too, as long as the speech in question is soothing, anodyne and we happen to agree with it. We don't much like freedom for speech that offends us, or with which we disagree.

Take the case of British Columbia high school teacher Chris Kempling. Mr. Kempling is an exemplary teacher, as principals and students, past and present, have attested. But Mr. Kempling is a Christian and, as such, he believes homosexuality is "not something to be applauded," to use his own words. A majority of Canadians may agree with Kempling on this, but the human rights industry and the pseudo-intellectuals do not agree with Mr. Kempling, and therefore we must all keep silent.

The British Columbia College of Teachers suspended Mr. Kempling for "conduct unbecoming a teacher." This decision just might be understandable if Mr. Kempling had expressed his views in school. But he didn't. He expressed them in a letter to the editor of his local newspaper. So, off with his head! -- well, not yet his head, so far just his teaching licence.

Then there was Hugh Owens, a Saskatchewan prison guard, fined for citing (not quoting, just citing) Bible verses that condemn homosexuality.

Then there was Toronto printer Scott Brockie, hauled before our version of the Inquisition -- a human rights tribunal -- and fined for turning down printing business from homosexual activists.

And the case of the Christian couple in Prince Edward Island who shut down their bed and breakfast rather than be forced to condone homosexual acts under their own roof.

But perhaps I had better stop there; I am no longer sure that mentioning the ham-fisted totalitarianism of Canadian human rights commissions is safe. Perhaps overnight it has become "offensive" (in Canada, synonymous with illegal) to point out what human rights commissions are up to. When you cease to be governed by the rule of law and are governed instead by the caprice of judges, you can't be too careful.

This trend to subordinate free speech to offended feelings is not confined to Canada, although this is one area (often, I think, the only area) where Canadians may justifiably claim to be world-beaters.

When the Vatican issued its categorical statement on homosexual unions last month, it was denounced by all the sort of people the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation would consider putting on a panel.

In The Globe and Mail, for example, columnist Heather Mallick warned the Pope henceforth to stay out of Canada -- on pain of, well, something akin to ex-communication from the sistership of all right-thinking (which is to say, left-thinking) cognoscenti. She also wrote: "Churchy people have no say in government, and that's all she wrote." I confess to finding that sentence frightening precisely because it is true.

To Mallick I say, fair enough, this is why free speech exists: to allow people like you to sound off, restrained only by the law of defamation, without the fear that by speaking your mind you are likely to have your livelihood removed or wake to hear the midnight knock upon your door. But how come Heather Mallick enjoys that right but not Chris Kempling? Why is any form of rhetoric allowable so long as it is directed against the Roman Catholic Church, but fawning subservience is the only thing permissible when the subject is gay rights?

As soon as the Vatican's statement was released, the Irish Council for Civil Liberties warned Catholic bishops there that any distribution of it, even in churches, could lead to prosecution and jail under Ireland's "hate crime" laws. Likewise in Canada, any biblical or religious objection proffered against homosexual "marriage" is routinely descried either as "homophobia" or "hate."

This is an effective political technique because it scares many people into silence. But it is fatal to free speech and, ultimately, it is fatal to democracy.

We need to remember that free speech does not mean freedom for the speech we agree with. Such speech needs no legal protection. If free speech means anything, it means protecting the speech we find disturbing, abhorrent, offensive.

Put simply: In Canada it is the Chris Kemplings whom the law needs to protect, not the Heather Mallicks.

Ian Hunter is Professor Emeritus in the Faculty of Law at the University of Western Ontario.



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: wingnutx]
    #1826844 - 08/18/03 05:02 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Excellent. Nice find.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: wingnutx]
    #1826853 - 08/18/03 05:04 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I could not agree with him more. I support gay marriage, but everyone should have the right to not do so. This is typical of leftists though. It is OK for them to say whatever they want, but not OK for others to disagree verbally.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: wingnutx]
    #1826856 - 08/18/03 05:05 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Free speech is one thing, but a teacher talking in an elementary classroom is different. He should not be addressing the issue, and for him to say homosexuality is "not something to be applauded," to use his own words, is dispicable...at best. Same as if a teacher were to say "is something to be applauded".


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1826861 - 08/18/03 05:06 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Did you read the article? It specifically states that it wasn't in the classroom, otherwise I would agree with you.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: shakta]
    #1826870 - 08/18/03 05:08 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Well skimmed it actually....but if it wasn't in the classroom, then I agree with you!


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: shakta]
    #1826871 - 08/18/03 05:09 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

"pseudo-intellectuals" are the only kind of intellectuals who would stand up for gay rights... right?


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1826873 - 08/18/03 05:10 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I personally think teachers should not interject their opinions into things at all. Show both sides and let the kid decide for themselves.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: shakta]
    #1826877 - 08/18/03 05:12 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, lets teach how to make descisions and think rather than give them sterotypes and 'facts'.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: shakta]
    #1826878 - 08/18/03 05:12 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
I could not agree with him more. I support gay marriage, but everyone should have the right to not do so. This is typical of leftists though. It is OK for them to say whatever they want, but not OK for others to disagree verbally.




hmm... which party made mass murder into an excuse to enfoce nationalism? oh yeah... not the liberals. THAT'S UNPATRIOTIC!! SUPPORT OUR TROOPS!! KILL THE COMMIE!!


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: Malachi]
    #1826880 - 08/18/03 05:12 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

What are you talking about? I just said I support gay rights, and everyone elses right to agree with me or not on the subject.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: shakta]
    #1826886 - 08/18/03 05:13 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

^^^
racist! :mad:









...sorry.... :lol: :wink:

edit-...shit....shit....shit....that was NOT a flame....it was my lame attempt at a joke! :crazy:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


Edited by Azmodeus (08/18/03 05:14 PM)


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1826893 - 08/18/03 05:14 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

This decision just might be understandable if Mr. Kempling had expressed his views in school. But he didn't. He expressed them in a letter to the editor of his local newspaper.




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Offlineshakta
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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: Malachi]
    #1826896 - 08/18/03 05:14 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think any party did that, just extremely right leaning jackasses. I would fight for your right to say what you want. The thing that libbies forget is others have the right to disagree with them.


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: Malachi]
    #1826899 - 08/18/03 05:17 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I support equal rights for gay people.

NO ONE has the right to be free from criticism.



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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: shakta]
    #1827113 - 08/18/03 06:17 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

if by "extremely right leaning jackasses" you mean "half the country" then yes, that is correct.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: Malachi]
    #1827117 - 08/18/03 06:20 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I disagree. I don't think half the country was saying that. I think most of the country thought they were wrong though.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: shakta]
    #1827120 - 08/18/03 06:21 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The thing that libbies forget is others have the right to disagree with them


That is a very broad and innacurate statement...Luvdem would even vouch for that.

I made an intelligent Anti Bush post at a site that leaned to the right, and I was banned in minutes...so much for free speech.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: Rono]
    #1827134 - 08/18/03 06:24 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

What site? I enjoy that political view...


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: Rono]
    #1827135 - 08/18/03 06:24 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

which one?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: Rono]
    #1827136 - 08/18/03 06:24 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

How about....

The thing that  SOME libbies forget is others have the right to disagree with them.

For those who lean libbie (forgive them, they don't know any better), feel free to substitute "conservative" for the word "libbie".

:kiss:


Quote:

  I made an intelligent Anti Bush post



Huh? From a Canoodian?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: wingnutx]
    #1827147 - 08/18/03 06:27 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Luvdem should remember which site it was...he suggested it.

I think it was "freerepublic.com"...somewhat Ironic if you ask me...



--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (08/18/03 06:28 PM)


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: Rono]
    #1827153 - 08/18/03 06:28 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Good point sort of. If I came on here and said that mushrooms should be illegal, and anyone that grows them is as bad as a baby raper I would get banned. That would be the same case as what you experienced. It isn't a court fining you for saying it or removing your professional credentials.

I have just noticed that liberals tend to cry free speach when someone disagrees with them. All of the celebrities speaking out against the war are a primary example. They all claimed their rights were being violated when people said they were full of shit, and disagreed with them. This article shows the same type of thing. Maybe it is overgeneralizing, but it seems to be a trend.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: Rono]
    #1827155 - 08/18/03 06:29 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

If memory serves me in my old age, I didn't suggest it. I expressed surprise when someone stated opposing views were not welcome there. I went and looked and it (at least that day) appeared to be so.

Which made me feel sad that they didn't have the decency to allow for debate.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1827160 - 08/18/03 06:30 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

  I made an intelligent Anti Bush post



Huh? From a Canoodian?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:





Made by anyone, if its anti-bush, its hard for it not to be intellegent! :smirk:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: Rono]
    #1827161 - 08/18/03 06:31 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Really? I get in some pretty bloody fights on that one, and it's hard to get banned. The drug legalization threads on there are pretty fun.

Most of the really hardcore conservatives bash the hell out of Bush on there.

If your first post is like that, though, they will probably figure you for a troll.

democraticunderground.com is pretty ban-happy.


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OfflineGernBlanston
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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: Rono]
    #1827163 - 08/18/03 06:31 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Hehe.. I was banned from Hannity.com in a matter of minutes for making non-flame-based posts on his boards, attempting to start an intelligent debate with his posters. Of course, my first mistake was in assuming that any of those ditto-heads was capable of anything approaching an intelligent debate.

I think my posts lasted about 12 minutes before I was banned and all of my posts had been "deleted by an administrator".


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: Rono]
    #1827178 - 08/18/03 06:36 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
Luvdem should remember which site it was...he suggested it.

I think it was "freerepublic.com"...somewhat Ironic if you ask me...





It appears it was Rail_Gun.

Here it is.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1827179 - 08/18/03 06:36 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Well i went to the free republic site,and i never knew al quaida was responsible for the blackout...

Monday, August 18, 2003 Al Qaida's Abu Hafs Brigades has claimed responsibility for the blackout last week in the Northeast and Midwest United States. A communiqu? by the Abu Hafs Brigades made reference to Operation Quick Lightning in the Land of the Tyrant of this Generation."

It was published as "the third communiqu? by the "Brigades."

In the first, they accepted responsibility for the downing of an airplane in Kenya. The second accepted responsibility for the Jakarta bombing of the Marriott hotel on August 5, 2003.

The new communiqu? says that in compliance with the orders of Osama bin Laden to strike at the American economy, the Brigades struck two important electricity supply targets on the East coast, according to the Middle East Media Research Institute. The Brigades say that they cannot reveal how they did it, because they will probably have to use the same method again soon. The communiqu? also claimed that the operation was meant as a present for the Iraqi people.

The following are excerpts from a report by the London-based Arabic daily Al-Hayat about the communiqu?: [1]

The Blackout was 'a Realization of bin Laden's Promise to Offer the Iraqi People a Present' "A communiqu? attributed to Al Qaeda claimed responsibility for the power blackout that happened in the U.S. last Thursday, saying that the brigades of Abu Fahes Al Masri had hit two main power plants supplying the East of the U.S., as well as major industrial cities in the U.S. and Canada, 'its ally in the war against Islam (New York and Toronto) and their neighbors.'

"The communiqu? assured that the operation 'was carried out on the orders of Osama bin Laden to hit the pillars of the U.S. economy,' as 'a realization of bin Laden's promise to offer the Iraqi people a present.'

'The Americans lived a black day they will never forget' "The statement, which Al-Hayat obtained from the website of the International Islamic Media Center, didn't specify the way the alleged sabotage was carried out. The communiqu? read: 'let the criminal Bush and his gang know that the punishment is the result of the action, the soldiers of God cut the power on these cities, they darkened the lives of the Americans as these criminals blackened the lives of the Muslim people in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine. The Americans lived a black day they will never forget. They lived a day of terror and fear? a state of chaos and confusion where looting and pillaging rampaged the cities, just like the capital of the caliphate Baghdad, and Afghanistan and Palestine were. Let the American people take a sip from the same glass.'

'The U.S. will not Live in Peace until Our Conditions are Met' "It added: 'we heard amazing statements made by the American and Canadian enemies which have nuclear physics universities and space agencies, that lightning hit and destroyed the two plants. And we are supposed to believe this nonsense. If the blackout occurred in one or two cities, their lie would have been credible. But the fact is that the blackout hit the entire East and part of Canada.' "The communiqu? continued: 'one of the benefits of this strike is that the U.S. will not live in peace until our conditions are met, such as releasing all the detainees including Sheikh Omar Abdulrahman, and getting out of the land of the Muslims, including Jerusalem and Kashmir.'

"The authors of the communiqu? said that the strikes aimed at 'hitting the major pillar of the U.S. economy (the Stock Exchange)? [and] the UN, which is opposed to Islam, and is based in New York. It is a message to all the investors that the U.S. is no longer a safe country for their money, knowing that the U.S. economy greatly relies on the trust of the investor?'

'The Gift of Sheikh Osama bin Laden is on Its Way to the White House' "The communiqu? mentioned that some economists said the blackout in the U.S. and Canada would cost the U.S. Treasury no less than ten billion U.S. dollars and in order to 'break the hearts of U.S. officials, just know that the cost paid by the Moujahideen to sabotage the power plants was a mere seven thousand dollars. Die of sorrow!' "The communiqu? ended with: 'we tell the Muslims that this is not the awaited strike, but it is called the war of skirmishes (to drain the enemy), and that the American snakes are enormous and need to be consumed and weakened to be destroyed. We tell the people of Afghanistan and Kashmir that the gift of Sheikh Osama bin Laden is on its way to the White House; then the gift of Al Aqsa, and do we know what is the gift of Al Aqsa, where and when? The answer is what you are seeing!'



--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1827191 - 08/18/03 06:39 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

The government is not ruling out their responsibility, but saying to take it with a very large grain of salt, from what I read earlier today.


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1827193 - 08/18/03 06:39 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

If I was a terrorist, I'd claim responsibility for it. I'm suprised that 5 different groups haven't done so by now.

Even if you never read user comments, FR is a great article resource. Quite a lot of the ones on here were on FR first :smile:



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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: wingnutx]
    #1827233 - 08/18/03 06:46 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

It is obviously the work of allah!

not any one terrorist group....  :grin:



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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: shakta]
    #1827499 - 08/18/03 08:02 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
"This is typical of leftists though. It is OK for them to say whatever they want, but not OK for others to disagree verbally."

"The thing that libbies forget is others have the right to disagree with them."


I agree with Rono that this is definitely an overgeneralization. So far, not ONE person agreed with what happened in the article. And I don't either. Most liberals respect free speech, but not discrimination (the Christian who barred gays from his bed & breakfast).

With that said, I agree with all of your statements that anyone should have a right to say what they want. I suspect the original article leaves out some important details, but of course I don't know for sure.


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OfflineDellComputers
Bluntman

Registered: 04/15/03
Posts: 806
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: wingnutx]
    #1827530 - 08/18/03 08:12 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I didnt read all the responses..but in response to the post and drawing from my own life experiences, free speech does not exist at all. Free speech is supported when people agree with the statement, but when people are offended its no longer free speech, its illegal. Christian preachers offend me when they call homosexuality a sin. Thats fine for them to say though because they 'represent the popular opinion', whether thats really true or not. fuck free speech...your free to support popular opinion, thats about it.


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Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/07/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: shakta]
    #1828743 - 08/19/03 05:34 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


Good point sort of. If I came on here and said that mushrooms should be illegal, and anyone that grows them is as bad as a baby raper I would get banned.





I seriously doubt that. Trust me,our mods and admins hold the utmost respect for free speach.If it was in the appropriate forum and didn't brake any forum rules and didn't contain any obvious flames,it would stay up (even though said post would be torn to shreds by the other members).

Generally the only people that are banned are people that blatantly break forum rules and/or resort to using flames,and these people usually recieve several warnings.

If you don't believe me,get a friend or something to register and make a similar post and see what happens.


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: Free speech falls prey to 'human rights' [Re: monoamine]
    #1828912 - 08/19/03 09:18 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe you are correct. I am just pointing out that getting banned from a website is not the same as a court telling you not to say something.


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