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Global warming during the time of Neanderthals
    #9159887 -

This has been bothering me for a while now.

In the last National Geographic they had a big story on Neanderthals. I read pretty much everything on them since I am interested in them, and I noticed something that has been mentioned in a lot of different articles.

They talk about wild swings of climate during the time of the Neanderthals. Most recently, last night on CBC radio there was a special on Neanderthals and again a professor from some university that studies them mentioned wild climatic shifts.

I have read that these shifts sometimes happened in as little as 10 years to a few generations (maybe 50 years). The emphasis is that Neanderthals were tough little buggers to survive these "huge changes in temperature and climate" that were apparently common during their time.







Wait. Back up.

Every time I hear someone talk about Global Warming it is "unprecedented" "nothing has EVER happened like this before" "etc etc etc"

How big were these supposed temperature swings during the time of the Neanderthals? Are they comparable to what we are going through now?


Edited by lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl (10/31/08 05:47 AM)

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Re: Global warming and Neanderthal extinction [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #9159890 -

I don't know, but I live in a sub-tropical climate, and it's cold as shit. It was hot the last few years now it's cold.


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Re: Global warming and Neanderthal extinction [Re: MHbound]
    #9160029 -

MHbound said:
I don't know, but I live in a sub-tropical climate, and it's cold as shit. It was hot the last few years now it's cold.


yep, i live in south/central florida and i remember it being more defined as far as seasons go, and i was in construction working outside for the last 7 years, and everyone i worked with all noticed the same thing, that it has been progressively getting hotter every year, and fall/winter has become smaller and smaller each year, and now out of left field much of the country is supposed to have bitter cold winters, and we just set a  few temperature records here for october,  it got down to 43 last night, and i cant remember the last time that happened this early in the year.

things are definately changing.  not sure whats going to happen, but ive got the idea that we have upset the weather patterns and will likely result in either a north/south pole re-alignment and/or another ice age. or maybe not, maybe this is just a fluke and the temperatures will continue to get hotter and melt far more ice than were projecting, rising the sea level, displacing ALOT of people, only to compound our current population, overtaxing the land, polluting the environment and etc. problems, more than likely resulting in famine, disease and massive human die off.

as bad as it sounds, thats the only "moral" way to correct the population problem. to have it happen as an "act of god".


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Re: Global warming and Neanderthal extinction [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #9160038 -

adjust said:
Every time I hear someone talk about Global Warming it is "unprecedented" "nothing has EVER happened like this before" "etc etc etc"



Dont quote me on this but from my understanding it is the speed at which the climate change is occuring that is unprecedented, not the actual climate shift.
But there are a lot of different people quoting others and somehow everyone has "scientific evidence" which proves them right... :shrug:


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respect the can."


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Re: Global warming and Neanderthal extinction [Re: eligal]
    #9160041 -

But as I said it is a common claim by Neanderthal researchers that very fast climate change occurred, sometimes over 10-50 years. That is comparable to today I think.

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Re: Global warming and Neanderthal extinction [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #9161509 -

It does worry me, but I really do not believe it. It hasn't really been proven...Sure it got hotter in most places, but that shift could quickly turn to being colder everywhere...Or even just go back to normal.


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Re: Global warming and Neanderthal extinction [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #9161582 -

Quote:
Every time I hear someone talk about Global Warming it is "unprecedented" "nothing has EVER happened like this before" "etc etc etc"


Ha, man... only ignorant hippies say that shit (and sensationalist news people).

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Re: Global warming and Neanderthal extinction [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #9161905 -

adjust said:
But as I said it is a common claim by Neanderthal researchers that very fast climate change occurred, sometimes over 10-50 years. That is comparable to today I think.


Wow, those Neanderthals must have had lots of automobiles and catalytic cracking columns.  :tongue2:

But seriously, could they be supposing that the extinction of the Neanderthal was the result of some sort of climatic equilibrium perturbation? 

Keep in mind the hominid species that we descended from suffered those same conditions.  We must obviously be hardier than the Neanderthal, then, since we survived these conditions, whereas they did not.  All lifeforms would have suffered it, and I'd be far more interested in how our homo ancestors faired than the Neanderthal. 


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Edited by Minstrel (10/30/08 11:12 PM)

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Re: Global warming during the time of Neanderthals [Re: Minstrel]
    #9162962 -

Well I changed the title of the thread since it was unclear what I meant.

What I am asking is this:

1) Are these researchers correct that sudden and dramatic climate shifts occurred during the time of the Neanderthals? Changes that occurred over spans as short as 10 to 50 years?

2) If yes, how do the climate changes during the time of the Neanderthals compare to today's climate change?

Edited by lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl (10/31/08 05:47 AM)

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Re: Global warming during the time of Neanderthals [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #9164969 -

adjust said:
Every time I hear someone talk about Global Warming it is "unprecedented" "nothing has EVER happened like this before" "etc etc etc"


Who on earth are you listening to?

Ice age.  End of the ice age, climactic shifts.

I've not heard many people who are both informed and concerned about global warming fail to admit that there are unknowns.  I've certainly never heard anyone say that the earth's temperature has never changed.

The problem is that the models are consistent with humans having a drastic effect on temperature, BUT we also know that the earth's temperature does change on its own.  The question is, should we do something about it or just ignore it and hope that climate change occurring now is completely natural and not because of us?

I think that we should do something.  The worst case scenario in acting to change global warming, if we are the cause of it, is that we fail to change global warming, but at least we did something.  The best case scenario is that we avert or lessen the impact of a catastrophe.

On the other hand, if we simply assume that we're not the cause of the current warming and do nothing, then a worst case scenario is that we were wrong.

It's all well and good to look for doubt.  That's part of the process.  But to say that we shouldn't do anything simply because there is doubt is irresponsible and foolish.

I realize this may have wandered off topic.

Edited by Plasmid (11/01/08 02:38 AM)

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Re: Global warming and Neanderthal extinction [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #9166025 -

I'm not sure where you got the idea, but nothing we have done and nothing about the weather will influence the north and south poles shifting.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Re: Global warming and Neanderthal extinction [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #9166080 -

really?  you might want to read up some more on it then.    the size and weight of the polar caps have ALOT to do with our planets balance.


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Re: Global warming and Neanderthal extinction [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #9166375 -

leftysurprise said:
really?  you might want to read up some more on it then.    the size and weight of the polar caps have ALOT to do with our planets balance.


Wait... are you talking about the magnetic poles shifting, or the physical poles shifting?

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Re: Global warming during the time of Neanderthals [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #9166952 -

And remember, they didn't have Aids back then. We're fucked :thumbdown:


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I'm just a psychopathic, mass-murdering, schizophrenic clown with zero empathy.

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Re: Global warming and Neanderthal extinction [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #9167013 -

Well, I was assuming you were talking about magnetic pole shift as that is one of the hotter scare tactics of pseudo-scientists.  None of the mainstream articles I've read on the subject have ever described the mechanism as subject to the the amount of ice above the poles.  Historically, we're due for a shift, but strangely enough I never read anything describing those historical shifts as coinciding with a reduction in the size of the ice caps.  It's something that's happened many times in Earth's history and nothing to get that worked up about.  Sure, it will probably effect communications in space and here terrestrially, but enough residual magnetic field should remain to protect us from radiation and our atmosphere from solar wind. 

However, upon your advice I did a search to investigate how weather patterns and the ice caps might effect a polar shift.  Indeed I found several sites that spoke of causes of the polar shift involving the redistribution of mass at the ice caps due to there melting.  What really sealed the deal though was how they went on the describe how Edgar Cayce had foretold this event.  We all know what a bastion of scientific proof he was.  It got better when every one I found spoke of him, Nostradamus or 2012.

Point me to some credible sources on the matter and I'll be happy to take a look.  But I highly doubt that even the complete melting of the icecaps would significantly effect the shifting of the magnetic poles.  It is a recurrent event that's happened many times when the poles were covered with ice.

Edit - If you're talking about the physical poles...Ummm, I wouldn't even know what to say.  I've never read anything warning of a physical shift, and I'd be inclined to believe that it would be even more unlikely. 

Edited by HagbardCeline (11/01/08 03:10 AM)

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Re: Global warming and Neanderthal extinction [Re: DieCommie]
    #9168093 -

DieCommie said:
leftysurprise said:
really?  you might want to read up some more on it then.    the size and weight of the polar caps have ALOT to do with our planets balance.


Wait... are you talking about the magnetic poles shifting, or the physical poles shifting?


physical, but i was also assuming  that  if the physical poles shifted that the turbulence would cause the magnetic poles to move at least a little.


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Re: Global warming and Neanderthal extinction [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #9168690 -

The earth is way more complicated than we think we know. The ocean has been sequestering CO2, which helps curb the levels a little bit. People say this is a good thing, but all the CO2 being absorbed is changing the ocean's pH. The current change (I think it was 0.01) has happened in a decade when historically it takes thousands of years to do. This means that organisms cannot adapt to the change quick enough. Although this may seem small and insignificant, in actuality in means many small organisms cannot form their shells, and thus disrupts the food chain at the low levels. I read this in an article but I'm too lazy to find it and put in actual figures.


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Re: Global warming and Neanderthal extinction [Re: Green_T]
    #9168762 -

Quote:
The current change (I think it was 0.01) has happened in a decade when historically it takes thousands of years to do.


I love it when someone claims that X has been going on for thousands of years, when in all actuality we have only been measuring such things for a few generations


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: Global warming and Neanderthal extinction [Re: niteowl]
    #9168850 -

Usually there are geological markers and such that correlate with whatever variable it is they are studying. These can be fairly accurate or rough guesstimates.

For example, carbon dating extremely old documents that happen to have the date written on them shows some systematic bias to carbon dating. Carbon dating is still useful for fairly accurate guesses.

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Re: Global warming and Neanderthal extinction [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #9168936 -

Quote:
fairly accurate guesses


Not a cold hard fact though.


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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