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Re: Mortgage Crisis was Caused by Liberal Policies [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8994213 -

Please tell me the definition of a recession and then point out to me where in that article that definition is met.

And to save you the trip to Merriam-Websters, you can find several different definitions at the link below, given by some neo-conservative blowhard when arguing semantics suited his purposes.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7868791#Post7868791


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Mortgage Crisis was Caused by Liberal Policies [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8994240 -

Madtowntripper writes:

Quote:
haven't heard from anyone except you that they gave out these loans because the government FORCED them to.



In actual practice, yeah.... the banks had no choice. See: http://townhall.com/columnists/NealBoortz/2008/09/19/the_rest_of_the_meltdown_story


Quote:
Twenty years ago the buzz-word in the media was “redlining.” Newspapers across the country were filled with hard-hitting investigative reports about evil and racist mortgage lenders refusing to make real estate loans to various minorities and to applicants who lived in lower-income neighborhoods. There I was closing these loans in the afternoons, and in the mornings offering a counter-argument on the radio to these absurd “redlining” claims. Frankly, the claims that evil mortgage lenders were systematically denying loans to blacks and other minorities were a lot sexier on the radio than my claims that when credit histories, job stability, loan-to-value ratios and income levels were considered there was no evident racial discrimination.

Political correctness won the day. Washington made it clear to banks and other lending institutions that if they did not do something .. and fast .. to bring more minorities and low-income Americans into the world of home ownership there would be a heavy price to pay. Congress set up processes (Research the Community Redevelopment Act) whereby community activist groups and organizers could effectively stop a bank’s efforts to grow if that bank didn’t make loans to unqualified borrowers. Enter, stage left, the “subprime” mortgage. These lenders knew that a very high percentage of these loans would turn to garbage – but it was a price that had to be paid if the bank was to expand and grow. We should note that among the community groups browbeating banks into making these bad loans was an outfit called ACORN. There is one certain presidential candidate that did a lot of community organizing for ACORN. I won’t mention his name so as to avoid politicizing this column.

These garbage loans to unqualified borrowers were then bundled up and sold. The expectation was that the loans would be eventually paid off when rising home values led some borrowers to access their equity through re-financing and others to sell and move on up the ladder. Oops.

Right now this crisis is being sold to the American public by the left as evidence the failure of the free market and capitalism. Not so. What we’re seeing is the inevitable result of political interference in free market economics. Acme bank didn’t want to loan money to Joe Homebuyer because Joe had a spotty job history, owed too much money on his credit cards, and wasn’t all that good at making payments on time. The politicians told Acme Bank to figure out a way to make that loan, because, after all, Joe is a bona-fide minority-American, or forget about opening that new branch office on the Southside. The loan was made under politicial pressure; the loan, with millions like it, failed – and now we are left to enjoy today’s headlines.




More at the link. Read the whole thing. Then there's this, from the comments section of the above link:


Quote:
I worked as a loan officer, both commercial and consumer loan officer at a bank for 9 years and what Neal said is absolutely 100% true. Every mortgage loan we did had a separate sheet attached and you made note that it was approved as a "CRA" (Community Reinvestment Act) loan. Bad deal or not, it sailed through. I, and other loan officers like me, noted our objections to debt ratio, excessive credit obligations, or derogatory credit history and we called these the "sacrificial loans", sacrificed to the ogre that was big brother. We knew the loans being made didn't qualify, but it was better to play the odds that folks would sell the homes with increasing values at some point or that their income would rise and they'd be responsible enough to make the payments on time.

Lenders have their loans reviewed from time to time and we were called on the carpet for loans that went bad. Do you know, I was never called in for any CRA designated loan or questioned about why a decision was made on any loan tagged as a "CRA" loan.

We kept nauseatingly strict track of these loans and the portfolio because when the Federal regulators came to audit the bank, whenever they wanted to expand or buy another bank, the regulators specifically wanted to see our CRA portfolio and ensure that red-lining was not taking place.

Neal is spot on. The mortgage debacle is partly to blame on the banks, but more so on government interference in the market and the pressure brought to bear on the banks to force them into making loans to less than qualified individuals.



Pay particular attention to the parts I emphasized with bolding, then tell us who's engaging in "revisionist history". You want some revisionist history, listen to the House Dems  - the asshats responsible for this mess in the first place - trying this week to pin the blame on "Republican policy". Those political junkies who were watching CSpan in late 2004 know better. For the very finest in Democrat denial, it's tough to beat this crew of clowns:



Pelosi's minions at their finest.





Phred


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Re: Mortgage Crisis was Caused by Liberal Policies [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8994262 -

What everyone (Democrats included) was calling the recession of 2001 was not an actual recession by the standard definition. By the time all the figures and adjustments were gathered and adjusted and corrected, it turned out to be a severe downturn, a slowdown, a contraction. But it did not meet the necessary prerequisite of two consecutive quarters of negative growth. It came damn close to it, (one quarter of just barely negative growth, one quarter essentially zero), but it did not meet the terms of an actal recession. 




Phred


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Re: Mortgage Crisis was Caused by Liberal Policies [Re: Phred]
    #8994340 -

I'm looking at the CRA examination history of banks like Wachovia and Washington mutual, and neither of them have been held to a CRA examination since the Bush administration took place.  In fact, I'm hard-pressed to find any banks that have been examined since 2000.

Phred, you're quoting a conservative blogger and an industry insider.  I'm not saying that they're not on to something.  They certainly are giving more valid explanations of the circumstances than say Zappa's "mandates."

There is one weak spot to the argument though, and that's where I see reference to "Bad deal or not, it sailed through. I, and other loan officers like me, noted our objections to debt ratio, excessive credit obligations, or derogatory credit history."  This is where the banks start to share the blame.

In some of the "under-served" areas that banks chose to cover as part of their obligations to fulfill CRA requirements, the banks would be hard pressed to find anyone filling these criteria.  When I refer to "bad lending practices," I'm referring to the fact that rather than just loosening these standard restrictions so it would be easier to find moderately sufficient lendees, many banks chose to cut overhead and do away with the screening process altogether, knowing that they could just foreclose on the houses anyways, thereby fulfilling the CRA.

Alternatively, they could have chose to cover the under-served areas, lowered the requirements by an order of magnitude, nearer or just below solvency (which would have been offset by the prime markets), spent more time screening recipients (thus earning a 2 out of 4 probably on the CRA score), and lowered the lending to holdings ratio.  If they followed this guideline, they would have been fine.

As you can see, the bottom-level people hated the CRA, but at the behest of upper-management, who had the incentive of short-term gain in stock prices, they increased lending, and came up with new securitization schemes and other accounting practices, to hide the inevitable losses that would occur if THE market were to fail.


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Discuss Politics

Edited by Ferris (09/27/08 04:55 PM)

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Re: Mortgage Crisis was Caused by Liberal Policies [Re: Ferris]
    #8994829 -

Their examination history has fuck all to do with the requirements that they buy loser loans.  Are you seriously contending that they didn't buy loser loans?  Because that is clearly what brought them down.


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Re: Mortgage Crisis was Caused by Liberal Policies [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8995442 -

> (loser loans are) clearly what brought them down.

No, no, no... Barry told me that is was CEO salaries and golden parachutes, not loser loans.  (sarcasm)


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Mortgage Crisis was Caused by Liberal Policies [Re: Seuss]
    #8996711 -

I think Ferris is saying that the banks wrote the loans off knowing that they could foreclose later rather than pay to screen the applicants. Now arguably the bank did the smart thing financially cause the overhead on reviewing that much risk was probably quite high. However this doesn't account for the pure volume of these loans.

I can recall shortly after the mortgage crisis first came up I seen a program aired in January or December that stated, the sub-prime loans that were involved in the crash had teaser rates on them (similar to credit cards) and most of those rates had a 3-5 year term on them before they flipped. So if this is the case the loans that caused the current financial problems were likely taken out between 2003-2005. This is likely to do with the fact that some banks were packaging these loans and selling them rather than having to make the "sacrifice" themselves.

However, if the bank was allowed to "free market" the loans like this then this means they do not have to worry about how many bad loans they make. I am suspicious this is the reason for the volume of the loans.

I wouldn't lay the blame on Clinton in his day the loans were practical and if Bush did try (and by that I mean someone coached him into doing it) to adjust the banking practices to prepare for his recession then it's not entirely his fault either. However I do know that Greenspan was endorsing these loans in early 2002ish and following that banks came out with incentives for lender personnel to sell these teaser sub-prime loans. To be fair to Greenspan I doubt this is what he had in mind when he gave this review of these loans but the fact is banks were peddling them even when people could qualify for better loans.


Oh and you can't blame Osama on Clinton, a book called "the looming tower" is basically an epic of the story of an FBI agent who specializes in studying Osama and his group who is in the end (final or second to final chapter) pushed aside when the bush government takes office so that they could peruse "a more broad approach to handling terrorism."

Oh and zappa unless you intend on reading like a dumbass you should stop saying "gummint" it's not helping your case in any of the threads I've read since you started saying it (probably shortly after the FM/FM bailout).


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Mortgage Crisis was Caused by Liberal Policies [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8996847 -

zappaisgod said:
An excuse?  An EXCUSE?  It was mandated.  The government interfered with the market and we get this.  Banks never would have loaned money to these fucks because they weren't likely to pay it back.  They gummint said they must.  If you want to give low income losers a chance to buy a house do it with your money, not mine.  Thank you Mohatma Gandhi.



This theory is just republicans blowing smoke. It's the exact opposite of the truth, as this comprehensive study proves. The CRA banks were actually LESS likely to make high-risk loans. In fact if there had been MORE CRA banks things would have been better.

Traiger & Hinckley LLP Study Shows CRA Banks Were Substantially
Less Likely Than Other Lenders to Make the High Cost Loans That Helped
Fuel the Foreclosure Crisis

NEW YORK--(Business Wire)--A Traiger & Hinckley LLP study of 2006 mortgage loan data suggests
that the Community Reinvestment Act, a federal law that requires banks
to help serve the credit needs of their local communities, including
low- and moderate-income neighborhoods, deterred banks from engaging
in the kinds of risky lending practices that are provoking the
foreclosure crisis.

Compared to other lenders in their communities, banks making loans
in their CRA assessment areas (CRA Banks) were less likely to make a
high cost loan, charged less for the high cost loans they did make,
and were substantially more likely to eschew the secondary market and
retain high cost and other loans in portfolio. Foreclosure rates were
also lower in metropolitan areas with proportionately greater numbers
of bank branches.

The Traiger & Hinckley LLP study, entitled "The Community
Reinvestment Act: A Welcome Anomaly in the Foreclosure Crisis,"
reviewed 2006 home purchase mortgage lending in the nation's 15
largest metropolitan areas: Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, Dallas, Detroit,
Houston, Los Angeles, Miami, New York, Philadelphia, Phoenix,
Riverside, CA, San Francisco, Seattle, and Washington, DC. The study
utilized public data filed pursuant to the CRA and Home Mortgage
Disclosure Act (HMDA).

"Without the CRA, the foreclosure crisis might have negatively
impacted even more borrowers and neighborhoods," stated law firm
partner Warren Traiger. "Apparently, the CRA's mandate that banks help
serve the credit needs of their local communities consistent with safe
and sound banking practices has resulted in CRA Banks making a greater
proportion of safe and sound loans than other lenders."

Specifically, the Traiger & Hinckley LLP study found that:

-- CRA Banks were 66 percent less likely than other lenders to
originate a high cost loan;

-- The average high cost loan made by CRA Banks was priced 68
basis points lower than the average high cost loan originated
by other lenders;

-- CRA Banks were more than twice as likely as other lenders to
hold originated loans in their portfolio; and

-- The higher a metropolitan area's concentration of bank
branches, the lower its foreclosure rate.

Conclusion

To a much greater extent than other lenders, CRA Banks avoided
making the types of home purchase mortgage loans that provoked the
foreclosure crisis. Unfortunately, the law's impact on the subprime
crisis was limited because in the 15 metropolitan areas analyzed, the
CRA Banks' share of the mortgage market was less than 25 percent.

While some have suggested extending CRA-like obligations to other
categories of lenders as a way of prospectively limiting the volume of
high cost loans and the problems associated with them, the study
speculates that the presence of local brick and mortar branches in a
community was at least as important a reason for CRA Banks' better
performance than fear of a less than satisfactory CRA evaluation.
Although the CRA still has a vital role to play for banks lending in
their communities, it is doubtful whether the same benefits can be
realized for other lenders without a branch nexus.

The complete study is available at www.traigerlaw.com.

About Traiger & Hinckley LLP

Traiger & Hinckley LLP is a New York City-based law firm that
advises financial institutions on compliance with federal and state
anti-discrimination laws. The firm's analytical group employs
statistical methods including linear and logistic regression analyses
to evaluate loan data
.

http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080107

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Re: Mortgage Crisis was Caused by Liberal Policies [Re: riceandpeas]
    #8997115 -

riceandpeas said:
This theory is just republicans blowing smoke. It's the exact opposite of the truth, as this comprehensive study proves. The CRA banks were actually LESS likely to make high-risk loans. In fact if there had been MORE CRA banks things would have been better.




except it doesnt show the ties with the insurance industry, the whole reason the CRA loans were made to high risk borrowers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenders_mortgage_insurance

http://www.allbusiness.com/personal-finance/real-estate-mortgage-loans/677967-1.html

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Re: Mortgage Crisis was Caused by Liberal Policies [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8997141 -

ACORN Issue Fueling Bailout Opposition
By Ryan Grim

Sep 27, 20

(The Politico) Earlier today, when House Republican leadership framed its opposition to the bailout bill as it currently stands, a principal objection focused on the group ACORN, which the e-mail alert called "the scandal-tarnished 'community organizing group'" -- with scare quotes in the original.

They're referring to the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, a group generally allied with Democrats and derided by the GOP as corrupt, inefficient and a front-group for Democratic efforts on the ground.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/27/politics/politico/thecrypt/main4483168.shtml



Liberals Try to Bail Out ACORN and Other Radical Community Organizer Groups
By Matthew Vadum  Saturday, September 27, 2008



As America peers into the economic abyss, radical community organizer groups are itching to get in on Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson’s big bucks, Big Government bank bailout action. (Maybe we should call it BBBGBBA.) The push comes after President George W. Bush caved this summer and signed another housing bailout that contained slush fund language.

As first reported by Warner Todd Huston of NewsBusters, Democratic lawmakers have been attempting to insert language into the bailout package to siphon off 13%* of profits (if there are any) from the sale of troubled assets and put it into a slush fund called the Housing Trust Fund. Here is the wording, apparently from Senate Banking Committee chairman Chris Dodd (D-Connecticut):

TRANSFER OF A PERCENTAGE OF PROFITS.

1. DEPOSITS.Not less than 20 percent of any profit realized on the sale of each troubled asset purchased under this Act shall be deposited as provided in paragraph (2).
2. USE OF DEPOSITS.Of the amount referred to in paragraph (1)
1. 65 percent shall be deposited into the Housing Trust Fund established under section 1338 of the Federal Housing Enterprises Regulatory Reform Act of 1992 (12 U.S.C. 4568); and
2. 35 percent shall be deposited into the Capital Magnet Fund established under section 1339 of that Act (12 U.S.C. 4569).

REMAINDER DEPOSITED IN THE TREASURY.All amounts remaining after payments under paragraph (1) shall be paid into the General Fund of the Treasury for reduction of the public debt.

The proposed fund resembles the Social Investment Fund Network that was inserted into the Democratic Party’s official platform and that Senator Barack Obama has proposed.

As Michelle Malkin has pointed out, the fund “would serve as a permanent, taxpayer-backed pipeline to Democrat partisan outfits masquerading as public-interest do-gooders.”

HotAir has an excellent post on the topic here.

*It seems to be 13%, anyway. The fund would take 65% from the 20% so that’s how I arrived at the figure of 13%.


Matthew Vadum is Editor of Organization Trends and Foundation Watch, two monthly newsletters published by Capital Research Center, a Washington D.C.-based think tank that focuses on the politics of philanthropy. He has appeared on “The O’Reilly Factor,” “America’s Nightly Scoreboard,” “The G. Gordon Liddy Show,” “The Michael Reagan Show,” “Janet Parshall’s America,” “The Greg Knapp Experience,” “Politics of Money,” and has been published in the Boston Herald, Las Vegas Review Journal, Human Events, and elsewhere. He worked previously as a reporter for The Bond Buyer, a daily financial newspaper based on Wall Street, and the Central Penn Business Journal.

Matthew can be reached at: mvadum@capitalresearch.org

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/5223

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Re: Mortgage Crisis was Caused by Liberal Policies [Re: Luddite]
    #8997232 -

biofuels dont seem to tie into mortgages very well, can you please show of the link between the two?

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Re: Mortgage Crisis was Caused by Liberal Policies [Re: Ferris]
    #8997269 -

Bill clinton proposed that there needs to be affirmative action when lending mortgages.  He said that more minorities needs homes, and the poor need a home, so you need to give them mortgages.  Now people that could never afford a mortgage suddenly got one.  Because of this certain politicians and business men, knew from the get go that these people would not be able to pay, they sucked them dry, raised the rates, and sold the bad paper to govt. overseen agencies like fanny mae and freddy mack. So in turn the ceos got all their money, the politicians got contributions from the ceos to let them do what they did, and also knowing that the tax payer would have to pick up the bill and all will be good.  After all the govt and the elected officials are our voice, and our willo therefore anything run or owned by govt. is our responsibility.

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. [Re: theshiz777]
    #8997347 -

.


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.

Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/19/22 01:08 AM)

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Re: Mortgage Crisis was Caused by Liberal Policies [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8997361 -

Regardless of what might be the causes, I contend only one thing:  that this proposed ~$700B rescue (bailout) is treating the symptoms, not the problem.


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Re: Mortgage Crisis was Caused by Liberal Policies [Re: Minstrel]
    #8997396 -

it's the invisible hand-job of the market.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Mortgage Crisis was Caused by Liberal Policies [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8997485 -

*reach-around

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Re: Mortgage Crisis was Caused by Liberal Policies [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8997535 -

supernovasky said:
I'm not going to pretend to understand all of this, but it seems to me it's a lot harder to narrow this down to a single cause. Our economic woes are multifaceted, and I hate the blame game you guys seem to be playing.

I mean, hell, just look at the reasons Wiki has been talking about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_Crisis




you know what youre right.  The thing about all of this, I dont think that the responsible people are responsible to pay for all of this.  Let the housing market crash, let these bad companies go out of business.  Its not our problem, they dont do justifiable business.  Let a free market, and capitalism take its course.

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. [Re: theshiz777]
    #8997544 -

.


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.

Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/19/22 01:08 AM)

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Re: Mortgage Crisis was Caused by Liberal Policies [Re: theshiz777]
    #8997556 -

You can't have Capitalism with no Capital.

If nobody is willing to loan the money that companies and individuals need to run their businesses then the whole system collapses.

And a total dry-up in capital is what you're looking at if you let these banks fail.


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Mortgage Crisis was Caused by Liberal Policies [Re: ScavengerType]
    #8997642 -

The best scenario I foresee is that the American dollar will exhibit very very high inflation (maybe to the point of hyper-inflation).  Once the notes are worth less than the paper they are printed on (certainly the 1$ is getting close [I'd like to see the enthalpy of combustion on a 1USD, it might be comparable to a dollar's worth of natural gas :grin:]), the populace will adopt other mediums of change, maybe in a rather turbulent time where gold/ipods/tv/food/water/oil/other-worthless-paper-notes might arise.  Bartering; seems a little antique, but has a charm. 

After all, the world is full of things :royalrainbow:


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