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OfflineGernBlanston
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Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 841
Loc: In my pants
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
What do our opponents mean when they (call) us... "Liberal"?
    #2128949 - 11/22/03 11:52 AM (13 years, 20 days ago)

John F. Kennedy

Acceptance of the New York Liberal Party Nomination
September 14, 1960

What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by "Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer's dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of "Liberal." But if by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal."

The rest of the speech...


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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Offlinebigfatdork
Now I Have Teeth

Registered: 10/19/03
Posts: 1,310
Loc: North PoLL
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
Re: What do our opponents mean when they (call) us... "Liberal"? [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2128979 - 11/22/03 12:36 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

I love that word, ever time someone calls me that I just think:

The adjective "liberal" has 5 senses in WordNet.

1. broad, large-minded, liberal, tolerant -- (showing or characterized by broad-mindedness; "a broad political stance"; "generous and broad sympathies"; "a liberal newspaper"; "tolerant of his opponent's opinions")
2. liberal -- (having political or social views favoring reform and progress)
3. liberal (vs. conservative) -- (tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or tradition)
4. big, bighearted, bounteous, bountiful, freehanded, handsome, giving, liberal, openhanded -- (given or giving freely; "was a big tipper"; "the bounteous goodness of God"; "bountiful compliments"; "a freehanded host"; "a handsome allowance"; "Saturday's child is loving and giving"; "a liberal backer of the arts"; "a munificent gift"; "her fond and openhanded grandfather")
5. free, loose, liberal -- (not literal; "a loose interpretation of what she had been told"; "a free translation of the poem")


--------------------
"But it was alright, he had won the battle against himself, He Loved Big Brother"


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Anonymous

Re: What do our opponents mean when they (call) us... "Liberal"? [Re: bigfatdork]
    #2128984 - 11/22/03 12:42 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

those definitions aren't all political in nature... and the word "liberal", even when used like that, means different things in different times and places.

liberal means something different in america than in australia, and it means something different now than it did 200 years ago.


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Offlinebigfatdork
Now I Have Teeth

Registered: 10/19/03
Posts: 1,310
Loc: North PoLL
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Re: What do our opponents mean when they (call) us... "Liberal"? [Re: ]
    #2128993 - 11/22/03 12:50 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

I'm sorry I forgot:

1. liberal, progressive -- (a person who favors a political philosophy of progress and reform and the protection of civil liberties)


--------------------
"But it was alright, he had won the battle against himself, He Loved Big Brother"


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Anonymous

Re: What do our opponents mean when they (call) us... "Liberal"? [Re: bigfatdork]
    #2128996 - 11/22/03 12:53 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

1. liberal, progressive -- (a person who favors a political philosophy of progress and reform and the protection of civil liberties)

reform... but usually not progress, and definitely not protection of civil liberties...


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Offlinebigfatdork
Now I Have Teeth

Registered: 10/19/03
Posts: 1,310
Loc: North PoLL
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
Re: What do our opponents mean when they (call) us... "Liberal"? [Re: ]
    #2129009 - 11/22/03 01:11 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

It wasn't a lefty who brought you "total information awareness" or the patriot act...


--------------------
"But it was alright, he had won the battle against himself, He Loved Big Brother"


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Anonymous

Re: What do our opponents mean when they (call) us... "Liberal"? [Re: bigfatdork]
    #2129011 - 11/22/03 01:13 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

it wasn't a real conservative either.


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Offlinebigfatdork
Now I Have Teeth

Registered: 10/19/03
Posts: 1,310
Loc: North PoLL
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
Re: What do our opponents mean when they (call) us... "Liberal"? [Re: ]
    #2129025 - 11/22/03 01:23 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
it wasn't a real conservative either. 




You think that? :eek:


--------------------
"But it was alright, he had won the battle against himself, He Loved Big Brother"


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Anonymous

Re: What do our opponents mean when they (call) us... "Liberal"? [Re: bigfatdork]
    #2129027 - 11/22/03 01:24 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

absolutely. conservativism in government doesn't mean big brother. it's means a small government. it means minding your own business. it means having the right to be left alone.

bush and co. are not conservatives.


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Offlinebigfatdork
Now I Have Teeth

Registered: 10/19/03
Posts: 1,310
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Re: What do our opponents mean when they (call) us... "Liberal"? [Re: ]
    #2129036 - 11/22/03 01:31 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
... means something different in america than in australia, and it means something different now than it did 200 years ago.




--------------------
"But it was alright, he had won the battle against himself, He Loved Big Brother"


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OfflineGernBlanston
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Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 841
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Re: What do our opponents mean when they (call) us... "Liberal"? [Re: ]
    #2129676 - 11/22/03 11:02 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
those definitions aren't all political in nature... and the word "liberal", even when used like that, means different things in different times and places.

liberal means something different in america than in australia, and it means something different now than it did 200 years ago.




Translation into Mushmasterese:

"I hate the people whom, in my mind, I have classified as "liberals" for one reason or another, regardless of how well thought out (or not) those reasons are. None of the above definitions fits the pigeon-holed definition of liberal that I have loosely defined for myself. Therefore, None of those definitions are correct, and I will simply argue that liberal means something different, in hopes that my argument will cover for the fact that I'm acutally relatively small-minded in my socio-political views and so that I can justify my beliefs to my inner voices so that I can sleep at night."

Loosly translated, of course.


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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Anonymous

Re: What do our opponents mean when they (call) us... "Liberal"? [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2129698 - 11/22/03 11:22 PM (13 years, 19 days ago)

all i was saying is that the word's got some different uses in different times and places, and not even all of the word's uses are political in nature... take these definitions for example:


1. broad, large-minded, liberal, tolerant -- (showing or characterized by broad-mindedness; "a broad political stance"; "generous and broad sympathies"; "a liberal newspaper"; "tolerant of his opponent's opinions")

this has little to do with political orientation.

2. liberal -- (having political or social views favoring reform and progress)

this does have a little to do with politics, but not political orientation.

3. liberal (vs. conservative) -- (tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or tradition)

this doesn't.

4. big, bighearted, bounteous, bountiful, freehanded, handsome, giving, liberal, openhanded -- (given or giving freely; "was a big tipper"; "the bounteous goodness of God"; "bountiful compliments"; "a freehanded host"; "a handsome allowance"; "Saturday's child is loving and giving"; "a liberal backer of the arts"; "a munificent gift"; "her fond and openhanded grandfather")

nor does this.

5. free, loose, liberal -- (not literal; "a loose interpretation of what she had been told"; "a free translation of the poem")

nor this.

even when used in a political sense, it means different things at different times. in the 1700's, thomas jefferson was a liberal. he sure wouldn't be considered one today.

I hate the people whom, in my mind, I have classified as "liberals" for one reason or another, regardless of how well thought out (or not) those reasons are.

come on now... i do not hate those i consider to be liberals. i take issue with people who think it's ok to initiate force against others or to enlist the government to do so, but it's not to the point of hatred...

None of the above definitions fits the pigeon-holed definition of liberal that I have loosely defined for myself. Therefore, None of those definitions are correct, and I will simply argue that liberal means something different

i think your mushmasterese is a little rusty there... what i'm saying is quite the opposite... i'm saying that the word liberal is used in a very wide range of contexts and meanings. that is all. i'm not saying that some are "correct" while some are not. i'm just saying that not all (actually very few) of the word's common meanings are relevent to one's political orientation...

by the first 4 of the definitions above, i suppose i am a liberal.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: What do our opponents mean when they (call) us... "Liberal"? [Re: ]
    #2129997 - 11/23/03 04:14 AM (13 years, 19 days ago)

bush and co. are not conservatives

I thought they prided themselves on being neocons? Bush's father always used to refer to guys like wolfowitz and pearle as "the crazies".


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: What do our opponents mean when they (call) us... "Liberal"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2130058 - 11/23/03 05:40 AM (13 years, 19 days ago)

I thought It meant "lots of mayonase".


--------------------


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OfflineRassilon
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Registered: 07/29/03
Posts: 8
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: What do our opponents mean when they (call) us... "Liberal"? [Re: bigfatdork]
    #2130068 - 11/23/03 06:00 AM (13 years, 19 days ago)

IME, most liberals are not true champions of civil liberties. They want to protect the ones they like, while eliminating those that they don't. It's hard(but not impossible) to find liberals who respect property rights, the right to keep and bear arms, or the right to ingest whatever plant/chemical any individual wishes, to name a few.

As far as Bush & co. being conservatives, Mushmaster is right... don't confuse those neocons for true limited government conservatives. IMO, *true* conservatives are often more freedom minded than liberals. Not enough for my tastes though... I lean more libertarian myself(individual rights above all else).

Rassilon


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OfflineRassilon
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Registered: 07/29/03
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Re: What do our opponents mean when they (call) us... "Liberal"? [Re: bigfatdork]
    #2130075 - 11/23/03 06:08 AM (13 years, 19 days ago)

Bigfatdork,

VP Al Gore actually was working on legislation remarkably similar to the Patriot Act, it was called the "Partnership for Reinventing Government." Wanted to give unprecedented power to the AG, and consolidate all federal law enforcement under the justice department. Luckily, he just wasn't able to get the support he would have needed at the time. If he had been president instead of Shrub, he would probably have called for very similar laws. Pols are all the same, it's all about power and money, they don't care one wit about yours or my freedoms.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp?Page=\Politics\archive\200311\POL20031111a.html

Rassilon


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Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: What do our opponents mean when they (call) us... "Liberal"? [Re: Rassilon]
    #2130080 - 11/23/03 06:16 AM (13 years, 19 days ago)

This is funny. The US political spectrum is extremely coarse and skewed when compared to the rest of the world. Sometimes it's useful to see beyond the liberal/conservative democrat/republican tags.

And whats labeled "liberal" by US conservatives, are often extremely conservative by European standards.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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OfflineTao
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Registered: 09/19/03
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Re: What do our opponents mean when they (call) us... "Liberal"? [Re: muhurgle]
    #2130981 - 11/23/03 08:24 PM (13 years, 18 days ago)

first of all, americans have somehow fucked up the word 'liberal'. its the opposite of what it means in europe and elsewhere. but mushmaster, i really think youre definition is off. conservatives are against governmental interference in businesss, but civil liberties are pushed by the left, not the right. conservatives push for order in chaos. why do you think the aclu is so left? why do you think bush admin put on Total Information Awareness, PATRIOT act, reagan admin stepped up war on drugs, and all that fucked up shit with the CIA and FBI in the 80's preventing communism from spreading, infiltrating CISPES and other peaceful organizations. Civil LIBERtarians derives from LIBERal. of course, there are exceptions to any of these definitions, but these are the overiding themes. Libertarians are conservative in terms of business but liberal in terms of personal freedom.


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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Anonymous

Re: What do our opponents mean when they (call) us... "Liberal"? [Re: Tao]
    #2131033 - 11/23/03 08:53 PM (13 years, 18 days ago)

Libertarians are conservative in terms of business but liberal in terms of personal freedom.

only if you define 'conservative' as generally supporting "economic" freedom but not "personal" freedom and 'liberal' as generally supporting "personal" freedom but not "economic" freedom....

which i suppose are definitions of common enough usage... they're not the one's i prefer though, for the simple reason that the dichotomy between "personal" freedom and "economic" freedom is a false one.

if we define a conservative as a person who believes in "economic" liberty but not "personal" liberty, and a liberal as a person who believes in "personal" liberty but not "economic" liberty, what we've really done is established two different inconsistent and hypocritical labels to apply... (but i suppose there are enough inconsistant and hypocritical individuals out there that perhaps these terms may have some use).

it seems that what really matters as far as left\right goes is how one feels about the market... about "economic" freedom... if one favors it, one is called a conservative, regardless of their feelings about "personal" freedom, while if you don't favor "economic" freedom, you are a liberal, and it really doesn't matter where you stand on issues of "personal" freedom.... but it really isn't very informative. it only tells you how a person feels about government intervention the market... really, that's what our most common usages of "liberal" and "conservative" really come down to... you know what i mean?

because of the false distinction which has been drawn between "personal" freedom and "economic" freedom, there really isn't a simple left\right scheme to apply anymore. it's really more like there are 4 corners. one upholds both "types" of freedom, one believes in neither of them, and the other two selectively believe in only one of the two falsely-distinguished "types" or the other.

you remember the political compass survey thing? it's sortof like that.


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