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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8955521 -

Exactly. Let's compare these two helpful directives:

Get thinged!

or

Get stuffed!

The difference becomes obvious.


--------------------

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: Epigallo]
    #8955574 -

bradley said:
Well Eckhart Tolle is a popular one but mystics throughout the ages have claimed that if you can become aware that you are "being", an eternal "I am", then you have realized what you really are; the unmanifested. But is this realization not just a manifested, neurological state?


Experiencing yourself as "being" is as much as a neurological state as experiencing yourself as "isolated body and mind."  Explaining how a feeling arises does not explain away its personal or philosophical significance.

I don't think the realization is that you are the unmanifest is quite the same as realizing you are "being".  That is just swinging to the far "other" side of the spectrum, running away from being a manifest creature.  The truth is one of bandhu or sunyata... you are the reconciliation of the manifest and unmanifest.  You are one with the process of things coming into and out of being, arising out of fundamental ground of being.  You are the great chain of being, from beginning to end.

It's not all or nothing.  It's all and nothing, and the gray area.  Maybe even what's behind all of that.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: deCypher]
    #8955635 -

The Cypher said:
Any realization made by a human mind is ultimately just a neurological state.


Any realization at the level implied by mystics have neurological correlates, but the realizations are metaphysical, not physical. Your response is 100% materialistic in its interpretation. Self-Realization may be vocalized by particular 'instruments,' namely, mystics, because metaphysical, 'Self-Effulgent' Being has 'interfaced' (to use an AI metaphor) with human beinghood. This is the mystical interpretation of Jesus' "I AM" statements. He was voicing the identity of the Logos and the Jews who did not believe this to be possible, accused him of blasphemy. God-Realization was a mystic notch above the prophetic communications which were acceptable levels of Divine communication in Judaism. Hebrew prophets always said: "Thus sayeth the LORD," (in the King James language), but never claimed to speak from the Transcendental Ego Itself (the "I AM").

So, the "I and the Father are one" statement, taken mystically rather than historically, really makes Jesus the Universal Man in the sense that his realization expressed in this is the metaphysical 'Truth' for each one of us, only it is fully realized in the locus of his mind-body where it is articulated. Mainstream Christianity attributes the statement to the historical Jesus placing him on a pedestal of absolute uniqueness, different from the rest of humankind by specie, not just degree. We may be saved by the Logos, but we are not saved by Jesus (who is no longer existent). We may be saved by "having the mind of Christ," that is, the mind of God-Realization, the 'anointed' consciousness, but Jesus remains a symbol for a fully realized human being - THE paradigmatic fully realized human being. Mainstrean Christian doctrine is schizophrenic-like inasmuch as it confounds the human ego of the man Jesus with the Logos. I am a dualist in this regard, even though such dualism can be abused. The Nazis, for example, also were dualistic in their propaganda attempt to separate the Logos from Jesus the Jew. But then again, Nazi mysticism was a far cry from Christian mysticism. Their god harkened back to a Teutonic tribal deity more than to a Universal God of all beings in God.

Christology is the branch of theology which has for centuries attempted to resolve this schizophrenic paradox with 'rational' doctrines. Some doctrine became orthodoxy and everything else became heterodoxy. I absolutely blows my mind, (and it would be funny if it didn't so smack of fanticism and dangerously delusional individuals), that there are people in the 21st century who accuse me of "heresy." Heresy translates as 'choice.' I have made choices with my free-thinking mind to say that certain doctrines speak more accurately to the truth about Being-beings in the 21st century than the accepted Christian doctrines - doctrines that were established at the price of torture and warfare! If unimaginable torment was behind the people who established certain doctrines, my attitude is that those doctrines are as demonic as the beings who forced them on the pathetic multitudes.

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (09/19/08 04:52 PM)

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: Epigallo]
    #8955652 -

bradley said:
So you say the eternal "I am" is a mental state, or an objective truth? If it is a mental state (well, at least neurological state), then it is a physical manifestation. But the realization is that you are really the unmanifested. Isn't there a contradiction?


Me,
no I do not
I am strongly irritated by any notion of eternal anythings; as well as the notion of "truths" which are often not anywhere near the HONESTY i look for in the representatives of reality I encounter.
rediscovering the now is a great direction to go.
neurologically the mental states are related to resonance and to how long an image takes to fade.
you can rediscover the now in any mental state.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8955802 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
The Cypher said:
Any realization made by a human mind is ultimately just a neurological state.


Any realization at the level implied by mystics have neurological correlates, but the realizations are metaphysical, not physical. Your response is 100% materialistic in its interpretation.


My statement is far from materialistic--I'd say it's more of a neutral monist stance.  I'd say that any thought, mystic revelation, or experience we undergo is a perfectly valid mental state, but simultaneously this mental experience is a neurological one.  Mind and matter are merely two facets of the same substance: two different explanations for the same phenomenon.  Science doesn't reduce the significance or meaning of any revelation; in fact, I'd argue it makes the experience that much more fascinating.

I am curious about your views, though.  Do you believe Jesus had miraculous powers?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: deCypher]
    #8955822 -

Quote:
Science doesn't reduce the significance or meaning of any revelation; in fact, I'd argue it makes the experience that much more fascinating.


Indeed!  It seems to me that those who feel the need "gild the lily" could be suffering from a lack of imagination.  The natural world is fascinating, and needs no artificial embellishments.

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: Veritas]
    #8955902 -

Veritas said:
Quote:
Science doesn't reduce the significance or meaning of any revelation; in fact, I'd argue it makes the experience that much more fascinating.


Indeed!  It seems to me that those who feel the need "gild the lily" could be suffering from a lack of imagination.  The natural world is fascinating, and needs no artificial embellishments.


So I guess you're not into French Ticklers?


--------------------
...or something






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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: deCypher]
    #8956429 -

I am contending that Realization is the metaphysical Reality of Transcendental Self-Awareness. As metaphysical, it transcends the material and hence neurological in that it pre-exists the material and neurological, both temporally and ontologically. In other words, Realization is one way of speaking of the Eternal Verity. It is, was and will be, before, during and after any material-neurological entities exist. Neurological structures manifest that Realization in space-time, but Realization is, again, the self-Awareness of Transcendental Reality. It is Eternal.

If Jesus existed as a historical person, then he may have embodied any of the 'further reaches of human nature' that have been recorded throughout history of particularly Holy Humans ('Siddhis' or powers in Sanskrit). I do not understand the scriptures of religious writ in any tradition to be other than mythic, or in Jesus' case, midrashic embellishments written to highlight a Holy Being. Even in the Greek mythic sense of a 'hero' - a male born of a mortal woman and a god - which is what the Christian Incarnation is and the most accurate reason why Jews rejected the mythos of Jesus - it is Greek mythology! Spiritual Jews did not reject Jesus' message, but the ones who were true to their religious culture, the Ebionite ('poor') Jews, did not accept the virgin birth (more Greek and Pagan mythos), or Incarnational mythology. Yet they embodied the purity and humility of Jesus himself. God does not suspend the laws of nature by stopping the sun in the sky (uh, the sun does not move across the sky, and neither does the rotation of the Earth stop and start again), nor is the Red Sea parted as with panes of glass like the Cecil B. DeMille movie 'The Ten Commandments' portrays, and walking on water is something I have in Hindu and Buddhist miracle stories as well.

So, no, God does not suspend the laws of physics, and Jesus is not God. Son of God is a title placed on Kings of Israel, it never meant a Greek mythological 'hero' as born from a mortal and a god. The great majority of Christians have never been very deep and have swallowed every doctrine that was meted out to them by corrupt church authorities. Until recent times, Christians have been illiterate or semi-literate and not equipped to understand the origins of scriptural writings. Indeed, this understanding is fairly modern so for most of history belief  has been magical, superstitious and blind. Writings were taken as literal, not midrashic. People couldn't get that they knew nothing of the ancient mind-sets that produced religious writings, and moreover, the Church destroyed the writings that disagreed with their own agendas - agendas which enslved the multitudes with fear and squeezed the most impoverished soul with tithings.

This ignorance is alive an unwell, even today, and even at The Shroomery.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: eve69]
    #8956448 -

eve69 said:
Veritas said:
Quote:
Science doesn't reduce the significance or meaning of any revelation; in fact, I'd argue it makes the experience that much more fascinating.


Indeed!  It seems to me that those who feel the need "gild the lily" could be suffering from a lack of imagination.  The natural world is fascinating, and needs no artificial embellishments.


So I guess you're not into French Ticklers?


I have no direct experience with them, but they are clearly not metaphysical.  When I referenced "the natural world," I meant the physical world which we can experience through our senses.  The artificial embellishments are the myths and fantasies invented by humans to fill the gaps in their ignorance.

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8956474 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
I am contending that Realization is the metaphysical Reality of Transcendental Self-Awareness. As metaphysical, it transcends the material and hence neurological in that it pre-exists the material and neurological, both temporally and ontologically.
This ignorance is alive an unwell, even today, and even at The Shroomery.


This theory is all very well and good, but how do you know this?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: deCypher]
    #8956476 -

I think you mean hypothesis.

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: Veritas]
    #8956483 -

Hey, I was trying to make it sound more credible by using the layman's meaning of theory, but if you feel as if you must be precise, I have no reservations.  :tongue:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: deCypher]
    #8956487 -

I must.

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: Epigallo]
    #8956624 -

bradley said:
Well Eckhart Tolle is a popular one but mystics throughout the ages have claimed that if you can become aware that you are "being", an eternal "I am", then you have realized what you really are; the unmanifested. But is this realization not just a manifested, neurological state?


From the perspective assumed by those with dogmatic pretext?

Absolutely!

From those who take the time to give it a careful analysis?

Relatively.

For those who devout their belief to the experience of this state?

I am


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8957522 -

o the whimsies of neurological states


"no mind foo"

:tripping:


--------------------
in all of Infinite
there is but One
and it is nOne
ever and always
in every and all ways

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: MokshaIs]
    #8957766 -

I think where Markthegnostic is right on is that
the metaphysical (which is not equal to the non-physical since it physicaly is the body of real progams in real computers - our minds)
which may equate directly to spiritual (-it does in my lexicon-) is
that complex weaving of mental connections and social relationships and nature such that it sustains more life, activity and enjoyment.

this web defies extraction as a pattern outside of the matrix in which it grew.
Unlike a DVD, it is not a pattern of ones and zeros that can be duplicated and transfered;
instead it is a precise and individual conditioning of a precision individual processing machine (each person's brain is that)
but it still has a physical presence and a physical nature though it's expression is all mental - or mental and physical, or mental physical social, or mental physical social and environmental (etc.).

For instance:
if you look at two DVD's and one of them has an operating system and programs and a movie, and the other is just blank,
both are equal, or were at some point,
while one is conditioned for immediate potential to do many specific and general things,
the blank one has undefined potential only.

Such is the value of the program offered by Tolle and/or achieved individually and in groups (many having nothing to do with Tolle) which elevates human experience.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8957824 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
I am contending that Realization is the metaphysical Reality of Transcendental Self-Awareness. As metaphysical, it transcends the material and hence neurological in that it pre-exists the material and neurological, both temporally and ontologically. In other words, Realization is one way of speaking of the Eternal Verity. It is, was and will be, before, during and after any material-neurological entities exist. Neurological structures manifest that Realization in space-time, but Realization is, again, the self-Awareness of Transcendental Reality. It is Eternal.




If only they had the ears to hear you...


:peace:


--------------------

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8958076 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
The Cypher said:
Any realization made by a human mind is ultimately just a neurological state.


Any realization at the level implied by mystics have neurological correlates, but the realizations are metaphysical, not physical. Your response is 100% materialistic in its interpretation. Self-Realization may be vocalized by particular 'instruments,' namely, mystics, because metaphysical, 'Self-Effulgent' Being has 'interfaced' (to use an AI metaphor) with human beinghood. This is the mystical interpretation of Jesus' "I AM" statements. He was voicing the identity of the Logos and the Jews who did not believe this to be possible, accused him of blasphemy. God-Realization was a mystic notch above the prophetic communications which were acceptable levels of Divine communication in Judaism. Hebrew prophets always said: "Thus sayeth the LORD," (in the King James language), but never claimed to speak from the Transcendental Ego Itself (the "I AM").

So, the "I and the Father are one" statement, taken mystically rather than historically, really makes Jesus the Universal Man in the sense that his realization expressed in this is the metaphysical 'Truth' for each one of us, only it is fully realized in the locus of his mind-body where it is articulated. Mainstream Christianity attributes the statement to the historical Jesus placing him on a pedestal of absolute uniqueness, different from the rest of humankind by specie, not just degree. We may be saved by the Logos, but we are not saved by Jesus (who is no longer existent). We may be saved by "having the mind of Christ," that is, the mind of God-Realization, the 'anointed' consciousness, but Jesus remains a symbol for a fully realized human being - THE paradigmatic fully realized human being. Mainstrean Christian doctrine is schizophrenic-like inasmuch as it confounds the human ego of the man Jesus with the Logos. I am a dualist in this regard, even though such dualism can be abused. The Nazis, for example, also were dualistic in their propaganda attempt to separate the Logos from Jesus the Jew. But then again, Nazi mysticism was a far cry from Christian mysticism. Their god harkened back to a Teutonic tribal deity more than to a Universal God of all beings in God.

Christology is the branch of theology which has for centuries attempted to resolve this schizophrenic paradox with 'rational' doctrines. Some doctrine became orthodoxy and everything else became heterodoxy. I absolutely blows my mind, (and it would be funny if it didn't so smack of fanticism and dangerously delusional individuals), that there are people in the 21st century who accuse me of "heresy." Heresy translates as 'choice.' I have made choices with my free-thinking mind to say that certain doctrines speak more accurately to the truth about Being-beings in the 21st century than the accepted Christian doctrines - doctrines that were established at the price of torture and warfare! If unimaginable torment was behind the people who established certain doctrines, my attitude is that those doctrines are as demonic as the beings who forced them on the pathetic multitudes.


The nice thing about the mystical vs materialistic approach is that the mystic can keep doing the work around until everything fits.

While the mystical approach certainly feels good on so many levels it can't get by my reality meter so unfortunately I can't make use of it. For some silly reason I think being logical and truthful with myself is important. That might be my mistake but it's too late now.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: Chronic7]
    #8958083 -

Chronic777 said:
MarkostheGnostic said:
I am contending that Realization is the metaphysical Reality of Transcendental Self-Awareness. As metaphysical, it transcends the material and hence neurological in that it pre-exists the material and neurological, both temporally and ontologically. In other words, Realization is one way of speaking of the Eternal Verity. It is, was and will be, before, during and after any material-neurological entities exist. Neurological structures manifest that Realization in space-time, but Realization is, again, the self-Awareness of Transcendental Reality. It is Eternal.




If only they had the ears to hear you...


:peace:


Yeah Chronic your beliefs are in good company here.

This rest of us are just ignorant heathens.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8958274 -

i prefer stuff and things


--------------------
Work like you dont need the money.

Love like you never been hurt.

Dance like nobody is watching.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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