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Offlinelonestar2004
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Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge
    #8716632 - 08/02/08 04:55 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

2 hours, 16 minutes ago

AP

WASHINGTON - Democratic candidate Barack Obama on Saturday backed further away from rival John McCain's challenge for a series of Lincoln-Douglas debates, agreeing only to the standard three face-offs in the fall proposed by the Commission on Presidential Debates.



In a letter to the commission, Obama campaign manager David Plouffe said the short period between the last political convention and the first proposed debate made it likely that the commission-sponsored debates would be the only ones in the fall.

"We've committed to the three debates on the table," campaign spokeswoman Jen Psaki said in an interview. "It's likely they will be the three appearances by the candidates this fall."

Asked by The Associated Press if that meant Obama would not agree to any other debates, Psaki said, "We're not saying that."

The first debate planned by the commission is set for Sept. 26 in Oxford, Miss., three weeks after the Republican National Convention concludes Sept. 4. The other presidential debates are set for Oct. 7 and Oct. 15 and the vice presidential debate for Oct. 2.

Plouffe said Rep. Rahm Emanuel of Illinois will be Obama's representative in further discussions with the commission.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080802/ap_on_el_pr/presidential_debates_3



COWARD!!!


Every time McCain appears at a town hall he should have an empty stool sitting next to him for Obama.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8716664 - 08/02/08 05:05 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"If John McCain wants to meet me anywhere, anytime, to have a debate about our respective policies in Iraq, in Iran, in the Middle East or around the world, that is a conversation I am happy to have,"
Barack Obama

:rofl2:

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/politics/blog/2008/05/obama_to_mccain_anywhere_anyti.html


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8716742 - 08/02/08 05:27 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

The flip flopper vs the Bush clone. What a choice!


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: Stonehenge]
    #8717575 - 08/02/08 08:51 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

and Barr and Cynthia Mckinney......


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8717601 - 08/02/08 08:57 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Don't forget Nader.




Phred


--------------------


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: Phred]
    #8717609 - 08/02/08 08:59 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

bunch of knuckleheads:smirk:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineWhiteBunny
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8717614 - 08/02/08 09:00 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Obama's plan.... lay low as f'ing possible.  Maybe if he doesn't have to speak non scripted speeches then no one will notice how outta place he is.  How is he even considered for the Presidency in the first place?  Did the dems really not have anyone else?

WB


--------------------


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: WhiteBunny]
    #8717657 - 08/02/08 09:21 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"I, uh, uh, uh, uh, that, uh, we, uh, uh, uh uh,uh,uh

uh uh,uh,uh


Barack Obama "Uh" Count


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/19/letterman-presents-barac_n_92367.html


David Letterman presented the "Barack Obama 'Uh' Count,"


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8717788 - 08/02/08 10:00 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I could give a shit less about either candidate, but this cant be the entire story.

no one says "Lets debate"... there have to be some other parameters that arent being talked about.
Debates are pretty rigged... look at the questions Ron Paul got in comparison to the other candidates questions...

Is it possible that Obama didnt want to go to these debates in "McCains home turf"?


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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8717863 - 08/02/08 10:31 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I'm pretty sure he'd be up for a debate when they were both at boheimian grove this year.


--------------------
Wiccan_Seeker said:
slide down a pole than with your legs spread and using your pussy as a brake. Ask the fire department :imslow:


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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8717902 - 08/02/08 10:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Who gives a shit, McCain just backed away from Obama's debate challenge about taxes because Obama didn't want to do 10 other debates in town halls. Equally cowardly as I see it. They should compromise, until then its back to slander slander pander pander.


Edited by Rebirtha (08/02/08 10:56 PM)


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: Phred]
    #8717932 - 08/02/08 11:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Don't forget Nader.





dont forget "NO"

that's how I'm voting


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Offlinedeadmeat986
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: Rebirtha]
    #8717950 - 08/02/08 11:09 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

race is over mccain has won. turn the lights out go home.  How you come back from "proper inflate your tires and tune ups." gas prices are at the top of the list people are worried about.And he come up with that?He has no energy plan. If they have a debate mccain will kill him on energy.The surge work and he can t be a man say i was wrong.if done that he be leading by 10% right not. He needs to lay low and pray mccain dies or his plane goes down.  :rofl2:

ANd because of that i don t need to waste my time and vote. thank you obama saved me 1 hr of my day that tues.


--------------------

"Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assalent, "If I live I will kill you, if I die you are forgiven". Such is the Rule of Honor."


Edited by deadmeat986 (08/02/08 11:11 PM)


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: deadmeat986]
    #8718075 - 08/03/08 12:07 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

wow, you really dont understand politics at all do you... maybe you should go hang out in MRP with that retarded nonsense.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: deadmeat986]
    #8718081 - 08/03/08 12:10 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

YawningAnus said:
wow, you really dont understand politics at all do you... maybe you should go hang out in MRP with that retarded nonsense.




--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8718943 - 08/03/08 11:03 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

YawningAnus said:
I could give a shit less about either candidate, but this cant be the entire story.

no one says "Lets debate"... there have to be some other parameters that arent being talked about.
Debates are pretty rigged... look at the questions Ron Paul got in comparison to the other candidates questions...

Is it possible that Obama didnt want to go to these debates in "McCains home turf"?






"In May, when a McCain adviser proposed a series of pre-convention appearances at town hall meetings, Obama said, "I think that's a great idea." In summer stumping on the campaign trail, McCain has often noted that Obama had not followed through and joined him in any events."


"Obama's reversal on town hall debates is part of a play-it-safe strategy he's adopted since claiming the nomination and grabbing a lead in national polls. Advisers to the Illinois senator, speaking on condition of anonymity because they are not authorized to discuss strategy, say Obama is reluctant to take chances or give McCain a high-profile stage now that Obama's the front-runner."

"We understand it might be beneath a worldwide celebrity of Barack Obama's magnitude to appear at town hall meetings alongside John McCain and directly answer questions from the American people, but we hope he'll reconsider," spokesman Brian Rogers said.

http://www.townhall.com/news/politics-elections/2008/08/02/obama_backs_away_from_mccains_debate_challenge



IMO Obama thinks he has this election won and is playing prevent defense...


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8719369 - 08/03/08 01:31 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
IMO Obama thinks he has this election won and is playing prevent defense...




In other words, he is playing politics. I love it when politicians play politician and everyone is like OMG look at the politician! :eek:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8720098 - 08/03/08 05:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

you cant spin this shit. 


Sounds like obama is a jackass on this one.... I'd love to here an obama supporter show otherwise....


Bob Barr for me


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: johnm214]
    #8720154 - 08/03/08 05:22 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Even Barry knows he's an empty suit.


--------------------


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: johnm214]
    #8720166 - 08/03/08 05:25 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Bob Barr for me




that's what we need, another republican running for president

Quote:

Recognizing Barr's precarious situation, the Libertarian Party seized on the opportunity to oust one of the federal drug war's most vocal proponents (Barr), and ran TV ads criticizing Barr's opposition to medical marijuana.





oh, wait a second... topple the republican and make him the
libertarian presidential nominee, I'm sure all his opinions have
changed and he's love to see the drugs flow freely and illegal
aliens shipped back to which ever country they came from.

Barr doesnt believe in freedom, he believes in slavery to jesus

In Congress, he also controversially proposed that the Pentagon ban the practice of Wicca in the military.


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Offlinepothead_bob
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8720480 - 08/03/08 07:06 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Bob Barr seems kind of sketchy to me considering his history, but not any more sketchy than Obama and McCain.

I wish I could get over Nader's views on nuclear power.

It'd be nice to see all these people in a debate together.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8720664 - 08/03/08 07:50 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

how exactly does someone his age do a complete 180 on all their political ideologies


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Offlinepothead_bob
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8720669 - 08/03/08 07:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I mean, I guess it's possible, but I just don't know about him.  I think he'd bring some of that baggage with him if he was somehow elected.

Maybe if he took a bong rip with me... :bongload:


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


Edited by pothead_bob (08/03/08 07:53 PM)


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8720692 - 08/03/08 07:58 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

it tells me more about the libertarian party, knowing they support amnesty for illegals, as he did when he was a republican and now hes in with the libertarians and suddenly doesnt want mass deportation but does want tighter security at the border

30 million 'extras' in this country that are shipping billions of
dollars across the border via money transfer every year... sure
sounds like he knows how to help the economy


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Offlinepothead_bob
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8720703 - 08/03/08 08:01 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Wait, he supported amnesty before, but doesn't now?

What's the libertarian view on illegal immigrants, generally?  Send them back or grant them citizenship?


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8720877 - 08/03/08 08:39 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

the libertarian party says give them amnesty, clinton allowed 12
million to have citizenship without anything more than
documenting that they had been here for a certain amount of time,
the declaration made at the time was that there would be no more
amnesty.

here it is again, not 15 years later and the numbers are triple,
once the announcement that another amnesty may be granted, they
came over in droves, so now we have an untold number of illegals
leaching off the failing welfare and health care systems while
americans both black and white are having difficulty getting
assistance through these lean times...

look at what corporate america has been doing with jobs



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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8720885 - 08/03/08 08:41 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I think it was Reagan with that amnesty deal.  Yet another reason why I refuse you to deify the doddering dope.


--------------------


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8720930 - 08/03/08 08:50 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

they both had given amnesty to illegals, there were 7 amnesties
altogether, regan had one, clinton did six


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InvisibleaDoS
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8720938 - 08/03/08 08:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

score one for the good guys

go mccain

obama is too racially handicapped to debate God


--------------------
"If we could sniff or swallow something that would, for five or six hours each day, abolish our solitude as individuals, atone us with our fellows in a glowing exaltation of affection and make life in all its aspects seem not only worth living, but divinely beautiful and significant, and if this heavenly, world-transfiguring drug were of such a kind that we could wake up next morning with a clear head and an undamaged constitution - then, it seems to me, all our problems (and not merely the one small problem of discovering a novel pleasure) would be wholly solved and earth would become paradise." - Aldous Huxley
:drooling:GIVE ME OPIATES OR GIVE ME DEATH:drooling:


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8721174 - 08/03/08 09:54 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:

oh, wait a second... topple the republican and make him the
libertarian presidential nominee, I'm sure all his opinions have
changed and he's love to see the drugs flow freely and illegal
aliens shipped back to which ever country they came from.

Barr doesnt believe in freedom, he believes in slavery to jesus

In Congress, he also controversially proposed that the Pentagon ban the practice of Wicca in the military.





Yeah, what do I care what he believes?


I would prefer another candidate, and I may vote for one when I do more research, but I think I'll vote for barr.


A vote for barr is a vote for the libertarian agenda, which he's advocated.  I would prefer a stronger candidate history, but he's explained adequatly his beliefs on federal drug control.

And I really don't give a shit if he wants drugs flowing freely, nor do I care about his belief in jesus.  Why you'd even say such a thing is beyond me


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Offlinedeadmeat986
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8721531 - 08/03/08 11:04 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Ummm ok i see you have real good argument? What most people do when they can t back up anything. name call.

1. its a dead heat right now obama lost a 10% lead in less the a week.

2.obama has lost FL and Ohio is leaning more to McCain.

3. in the battle ground states it's ether with in error or only 5% ahead.

All this after the big world tour???
McCain had no press said little during obama dog and pony show and it's a dead heat right now???:rofl2:
And you really think he wants to have none formated Q&A with MCCAIN in town hall meeting??please Mccain will kill him. even every press outlet says this.

What hurt obama??

1.the comment about guns and religion lost PA my home state.He will most likely lose PA again.

2."inflate tires and tune ups".you can even hear the crowed at that speech give him a nerves laugh and applause, which meant"what did he say"?.+Dem run congress not voting on energy up or down vote. People know if obama is president gas will go over 5$ gal avg Jan or Feb maybe spring? HE HAS NO ENERGY PLAN. #1 issue right now.

3. not stopping for hour or two with troops at rammstien. he should have went no matter what.+ he made three different reason why he did not go?

4. He did not say "i was wrong about the surge in iraq". when asked 4 times by whats her name from cbs?he still did not give an answer I would have said "i was wrong about the surge and i will review my policy about this in the future military action. but this still does not mean we should have gone in."bla bla bla.

5.Big no no playing race card. McCain knew he do it and he did.People dont like that crap.

My point in two weeks McCain will be ahead by 5-8% national. then after Dem convention obama will make it tie. then McCain has shi-ding and it will be 10% McCain. McCain wins 15-20% next president.


:piss:
Quote:

YawningAnus said:
wow, you really dont understand politics at all do you... maybe you should go hang out in MRP with that retarded nonsense.


:piss:

  :bye:


--------------------

"Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assalent, "If I live I will kill you, if I die you are forgiven". Such is the Rule of Honor."


Edited by deadmeat986 (08/03/08 11:10 PM)


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: johnm214]
    #8721811 - 08/04/08 12:08 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
A vote for barr is a vote for the libertarian agenda, which he's advocated.




so you believe that illegals should be granted amnesty? with
jobs becoming more scarce and even they're out of work, what
kind of improvement will this make in the US


Quote:

Why you'd even say such a thing is beyond me




it's a complete u-turn from his previous stance as a republican


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: deadmeat986]
    #8721860 - 08/04/08 12:26 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Most of your contentions are little more than a regurgitation of Republican party talking points.  Your problem is that you just parrot them without bothering to figure for yourself whether or not they are true.

Quote:

its a dead heat right now obama lost a 10% lead in less the a week.



In a head to head, nation-wide race.. which as anyone with a high school diploma should know, means absolutely nothing.  Look at any electoral map, and you'll see a very different story.

Quote:

obama has lost FL and Ohio is leaning more to McCain.



Has Obama really lost Florida, or has he made significant gains due to the fact that McCain hasn't spent one penny there? (link)

Quote:

in the battle ground states it's ether with in error or only 5% ahead.



Wrong.  In the traditional battleground states of Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Michigan Obama is leading in two, leaving Ohio as very close.  Pennsylvania, despite your blind assertion to the contrary, is leaning quite heavily toward Obama, where he has led in every poll since late April (link).  Obama has led in every poll of Michigan voters since the end of May (link).

What hurt Obama?

Quote:

the comment about guns and religion lost PA my home state.He will most likely lose PA again.



How long ago was that?  5 months?  It's hurting Obama today why?  Get a clue.  Obama never had a chance against Clinton in Pennsylvania, yet he only lost by 9 points despite having trailed by 17 only a month prior to the primary and the commencement of active campaigning in the state.   

Quote:

HE HAS NO ENERGY PLAN. #1 issue right now.



Obama and McCain will both vote for the Gang of Ten compromise.  Do you know what that is?  It seems that when it comes to votes in the Senate, McCain and Obama will have the same energy plan.

Quote:

He did not say "i was wrong about the surge in iraq". when asked 4 times by whats her name from cbs?he still did not give an answer I would have said "i was wrong about the surge and i will review my policy about this in the future military action. but this still does not mean we should have gone in."bla bla bla.



You seem to dismiss that he was right about not going to war in the first place.  There would have been no war in Iraq.  Furthermore, the surge's role in the resultant stability in Iraq is less than direct.  Petraeus' generalship is the great achievement, not the public's naive interpretation of the "surge" as categorically administrative. 

Quote:

Big no no playing race card. McCain knew he do it and he did.People dont like that crap.



The daily news cycle is meaningless and only appeals to those with the attention span of a gnat; not to mention those only looking for news that appeals to their own preconceived notions.  Congratulations..  That's you!

Quote:

My point in two weeks McCain will be ahead by 5-8% national. then after Dem convention obama will make it tie. then McCain has shi-ding and it will be 10% McCain. McCain wins 15-20% next president.



You are totally insane.  You do realize that when Reagan beat Mondale in '84, carrying 49 states, that was an %18 margin popularly, right?  Make insane predictions, I don't care.  When I can understand what you're talking about, they make me laugh.  Just realize that they are not even remotely based in reality.


--------------------


I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8722592 - 08/04/08 04:15 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
A vote for barr is a vote for the libertarian agenda, which he's advocated.




so you believe that illegals should be granted amnesty? with
jobs becoming more scarce and even they're out of work, what
kind of improvement will this make in the US


Quote:

Why you'd even say such a thing is beyond me




it's a complete u-turn from his previous stance as a republican





I don't know his stance on illegal immigration, but i support plans such as bush's.  Barr wants to just pardon everyone?

I don't like that, and I don't really support the whole open border libertarian credo, but it isn't enough of an issue for me to care. 

I don't think anyone will look at a percentage Barr gets and think "wow, those folks are sure for amnesty".


Unlike the democrats and republicans, the libertarian message is pretty clear.  I'm sure one day, if the party gets more support, it will be diluted and wrecked like the dem/rep party, but untill then, I feel confident my vote is understood.

I doubt it is likely, but I've even heard some folks are worried the few votes Barr will get will hurt McCain.  This kinda stuff, in theory, is why you don't need to win elections to influence politics and government.  When the democrats and republicans see they need third party voters to get a majority, and not the sheep who vote party lines without considering the candidates, they just may start changing how elections laws are, and might just start revising their posititions.

I've heard israel is a good example of this, but don't know... I heard in their legislature their are some small parties with a few guys in their that certainly don't have enough power to pass laws, but have enough to be corted on contentious issues- such that they can demand additions or compromise.

This is how democracy with third parties can and hopefully will work some day.  There is no reason we can't have different parties.  Though I disagree with the green party strongly, I really hope they amp up their support, so we get some real competition for both dem and rep voters.




And yes, I realize Barr has done a 180, and that he was/is a shameluss huckster, but I'm not neccesarily opposed to that.  Someone who simply represents the will of the people is fine as a legislator, though maybe not preferable.


I'm more inclined to believe this run reflects his true beliefs, given I can't imagine being a libertarian candidate means much to anyone, but I don't know.  But then I normally don't buy into the hype around career politicians like we've seen with clinton and obama... They're all just polling and talking while trying to say as little as possible while inducing the most positive emotional response to their nonstatements....


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: johnm214]
    #8722953 - 08/04/08 08:34 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
I don't know his stance on illegal immigration, but i support plans such as bush's.  Barr wants to just pardon everyone?





the libertarian party wants to grant them amnesty and apparently leave the borders open
http://www.lp.org/issues/immigration
we can change our immigration law to more closely conform to how millions of normal people actually live.

Quote:

I don't like that, and I don't really support the whole open border libertarian credo, but it isn't enough of an issue for me to care. 




30 million people have jumped the border, displacing 7 million
from their jobs and eliminating the opportunity for a better
life to those that were born here because they were seeking
something better for themselves, they've come here without
health screenings and have brought a mirriad of diseases with
them that have virtually been eliminated in this country,
in my opinion, it's biological warfare



Quote:

Unlike the democrats and republicans, the libertarian message is pretty clear.




if you like fantasy land, it's quite clear
The Libertarian Party's anti-crime plan would do what the Democrats and Republicans have not done:

    * Respect the victim's rights and make criminals pay full restitution.


HOW? in prison they earn no money and how do you pay restitution for rape, murder or child molestation?

    * Hold all criminals responsible for their actions.

Durrr... isnt that the purpose of laws

    * Double the police resources available for crime prevention without any additional government spending.

wait... what? double the cops, equip them with more junk just so we can have twice as many incompetents saying "I'll take a report" or "I hadda kill him, he wasnt complying with my orders"

[    * Reduce the number of criminals at large on our streets.

Double Durrr. I suppose twice as many cops with twice as much shiny stuff will do that, what about the cops that are criminals, what about eliminating the criminals holding public office


    * Defend the most effective crime deterrent available, the private ownership of guns.

YAY!!! they're gonna over rule the supreme court and tell us we can have guns
 
* Create jobs, end welfare dependence, and improve education.

how... how the hell are politicians going to create jobs with it being a welfare dependency, how will they improve education if it doesnt involve getting the feds out of schools


Quote:

When the democrats and republicans see they need third party voters to get a majority, and not the sheep who vote party lines without considering the candidates, they just may start changing how elections laws are, and might just start revising their posititions.




do you really think the Republicrats are going to change
election laws? do you honestly think that a 3rd party is going
to be any different than what we have now... as it stands the 2
major parties get matching campaign funds, the others get shit,
the 2 parties get equal air time (well, that's what they claim)
and everyone else gets dick... what exactly is gonna change and
how do they plan to do it... it's just like the whole 'double
the number of cops on the street, update their equipment, reduce
taxes and eliminate the drug war bullshit... there's nothing
there but smoke


Quote:

I heard in their legislature their are some small parties with a few guys in their that certainly don't have enough power to pass laws, but have enough to be corted on contentious issues- such that they can demand additions or compromise.




Libertarianism will always be a fringe political movement
because if its internal contradiction: Libertarianism’s core
philosophy is about devolving power; but as a political
movement, it is concerned with acquiring power. This is an
inescapable dichotomy for libertarianism as a political
movement, and helps explain why voters who love freedom refuse
to vote for libertarian political candidates.

Libertarianism’s greatest strength is as an intellectual
movement. As a political movement, libertarianism forever
insists upon presenting socially inept, mildly extremist
candidates who argue that their outrageous, often rigid
positions on political issues are based upon ‘principle.’
But if ‘principle’ actually guided the libertarian candidate,
then why is s/he seeking power?

We have a higher percentage of libertarians holding seats in
congress and the senate and yet they still dont have enough
power to influence the vote, I wonder if the fact that in the
last presidential election almost 60% of the libertarians voted
republican and 36% voted democrat...


Quote:

This is how democracy with third parties can and hopefully will work some day.  There is no reason we can't have different parties.




real change comes from within, do away with the parties, these
alliances are what's making sure more shit laws get passed
instead of the enforcement of the laws we have, do we need 8
ways of saying killing is illegal? Force candidates to seek
their own campaign funding, quit sucking it from the treasury
unless it's spread across ALL the candidates and file suit
against media outlets that arent giving equal time to each of
the candidates


Quote:

Someone who simply represents the will of the people is fine as a legislator, though maybe not preferable.

I'm more inclined to believe this run reflects his true beliefs




nothing changes, it's the same shit with a different shovel,
they all claim to be representatives of the people, they all
support special interest, that being their own interests


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8722978 - 08/04/08 08:50 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

* Double the police resources available for crime prevention without any additional government spending.



I can see it now... "This police helicopter brought to you by Subway. Eat Fresh!"


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: thedefone]
    #8723649 - 08/04/08 01:15 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

ummm ok whatever. i flip around my xm during the day in my art studio air america talk radio cnn fox msnbc.
www.rasmussenreports.com, gallup. and your links you give me are with in or just outside of error?? give me a break. Did you hear obamas speech on energy at noon in mich? he bla bla bla for 20 min about nothing no clear plan what he do.

I don t like mccain who cares. but i'm telling you obama should be ahead 10-15% right now in most of the battle ground states he's not. Obama blowed his load too quick and he lost the race. mccain did not win it. like i said 15-20% mccain want put some money on that?

lol heres the odds. obama is 2/5 mccain 7/4 and anything can happen in a horse race. but obamas the one out there talking getting the fan fair.More room for a trip in the finally bend. McCain by 15%


--------------------

"Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assalent, "If I live I will kill you, if I die you are forgiven". Such is the Rule of Honor."


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: deadmeat986]
    #8723757 - 08/04/08 01:37 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I'll take the 15% popular election count on even odds if you're so sure.


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: deadmeat986]
    #8723867 - 08/04/08 01:57 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

deadmeat986 said:


. Obama blowed his load too quick and he lost the race. mccain did not win it.





right, all McCain has to do is continue breathing and he will walk easily into the white house.




“a light will shine down from somewhere. It will alight upon you. You will experience an epiphany and you will say to yourself, I have to vote for Barack.”

Barack Obama

:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: zouden]
    #8724711 - 08/04/08 04:27 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Quote:

* Double the police resources available for crime prevention without any additional government spending.



I can see it now... "This police helicopter brought to you by Subway. Eat Fresh!"




I think its pretty clear that this presumes that they would like to eliminate victimless crimes, which may actually halve the crime rate.  If the cities and states want to keep the same number of cops employed, for whatever reason, that might double the effective police presence an resources for real crime, like theft, assault, et cet, and do away with huge expenditures on stopping folks from doing/ selling drugs.  When the selling of drugs is legal with appropriate consumer protections laws ( like purity, dosage, et cet being displayed on the package and enforcable via private suit), the criminal elements that deal drugs will loose their monies and easy flow of cash.


I know many folks who do illicit drugs.  I know few who wish to buy stolen cars/guns/ et cet.


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: johnm214]
    #8724745 - 08/04/08 04:32 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

which may actually halve the crime rate




That's the way I see it, too.  People should vote third party just for ending the War on Drugs.  That alone would free up so much tax revenue to be used for useful purposes as opposed to building/staffing prisons and funding a huge police force for stopping drug trafficking and usage.

Unfortunately, people are still duped into believing the War is justified and that our bodies are public property.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: Redstorm]
    #8725279 - 08/04/08 06:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

obama drop 10% in a week!Mccain up by 1% well tied but a 10% lose for obama. after his big world tour hoop la.Its a bust. he has yet to get the blue dog dem white vote. if he does not gain at lest 10% back before dem party his done. And that big world tour was his sprint his got nothing in the tank.mccain just rope a dope him that whole week and counter punched.
O and once again obama now wants to drill???People are tried of this take both sides. funny he wants to do that after his 10% drop in the polls.thought we just need to inflate our ties would save as much as off shore drilling?:rofl2: unless obama shows us who is before dem party in Denver with a 8-10% lead again it's over.
So how much you want to bet?:rofl2: you play the pony or cards at casinos? o i do:grin:


--------------------

"Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assalent, "If I live I will kill you, if I die you are forgiven". Such is the Rule of Honor."


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: deadmeat986]
    #8725330 - 08/04/08 06:33 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

If you weren't rolling on the floor so much you'd take a good look and see that McCain is extremely poor at campaigning. This will be his biggest weakness IMO. Sure, you can be dismissive of Obama's showmanship but the fact remains that the media - and many voters - love that stuff.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: deadmeat986]
    #8725353 - 08/04/08 06:39 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

didnt I just see on the news that Obama wants to sell 70 million barrels out of our reserves?

I gave up caring about this election a few months ago. I dont pay taxes, and im not worried about gatting gay and married... If presidents really have that much sway over what the cost of a barrel of crude is, then why havent we impeached Bush? The economy is a burning car teetering on the edge of a cliff and in a few months it will tumble down the hill in a fiery heap.
The economy has been falsly propped up by the fed and speculation regarding corporate bailouts... we should have been in a recession fall of last year.
whoever takes over this upcoming term has nothing to do but fail miserably.

I wasnt making a statement about your assumption of Mccain winning, but rather how retarded it is to make an assumption this far out from election time. There is still plenty of time for each candidate to stick a foot in their mouth, die from cancer, pick up a VP that cant spell or prays for lower gas prices...
it just shows that you arent a political minded person, but rather a reactive, charged regurgitator of rhetoric and apply absolutes to obviously subjective points of interest without having any factual backing... IOW, you watch fox news.

you have no foresight either... energy plans are the #1 issue? america is fickle, and in 4 days Bejing is going to be the #1 issue... the news will finally have something to report on other than stupid observations about candidates wives outfits when they run out of analysis over what Obama and mccain said that day.

anyway, the winner is decided the week before actual elections are held. all the time prior to that is overanalysis between the 5% of americans that really take the time to educate themselves on political platforms and make a decision based on something besides pepsi or coke personal preferences.


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8725354 - 08/04/08 06:39 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

not easy walk but obama is showing his true strips now. after 10% drop in polls and the dems not voting on energy plan people are flipping out. And he says "inflate your tries"? Then today he says "we need to drill alittle"?
Just like the yes vote on phone tapping he did.lot you people for obama where pissed about that well did it again.
Obama needs to do damage control for the 10% lose in the polls. by the end of the week mccain will be up by 3-5% if he hammers obama on this. He can t do town hall meetings with mccain.Cause he will get hammerd on energy.


--------------------

"Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assalent, "If I live I will kill you, if I die you are forgiven". Such is the Rule of Honor."


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: deadmeat986]
    #8725369 - 08/04/08 06:44 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

You're just repeating what you've been saying this whole thread.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: zouden]
    #8725388 - 08/04/08 06:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

yea mccain has run a poor campain no dought there. But obama has drop 10% to mccain in a week and its not because of one tv ad from mccain. Obama has had everything his way yet its tie with an guy thats running a bad campain? Obama has aready attacked mccain one everything what more is he going to say that we 've already heard?


--------------------

"Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assalent, "If I live I will kill you, if I die you are forgiven". Such is the Rule of Honor."


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: johnm214]
    #8725866 - 08/04/08 08:38 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
I think its pretty clear that this presumes that they would like to eliminate victimless crimes, which may actually halve the crime rate.




well of course, that's the fastest way for the libertarians to
say "hey, look we cut crime by 63% in one year, increase our
power and we can do more next year"

Quote:

I know few who wish to buy stolen cars/guns/ et cet.




obviously there is a market, one that's still growing


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8726035 - 08/04/08 09:16 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

hey, look we cut crime by 63% in one year




Nobody is stopping the dems and republicans from doing the same thing and making the same claim.

Hell, I wish they would already as I think it's obvious that the War on Drugs is doing nothing but tearing families apart and ruining the lives of innocent people.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #8726442 - 08/04/08 10:41 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

YawningAnus said:
didnt I just see on the news that Obama wants to sell 70 million barrels out of our reserves?
  The economy is a burning car teetering on the edge of a cliff and in a few months it will tumble down the hill in a fiery heap.
The economy has been falsly propped up by the fed and speculation regarding corporate bailouts... we should have been in a recession fall of last year.
whoever takes over this upcoming term has nothing to do but fail miserably.
 




Source for all your doomsday ramblings?


I understand your pessimistic about the economy... why?


And what speculation of corporate bailouts are you talking about?

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
I think its pretty clear that this presumes that they would like to eliminate victimless crimes, which may actually halve the crime rate.




well of course, that's the fastest way for the libertarians to
say "hey, look we cut crime by 63% in one year, increase our
power and we can do more next year"






I don't see the point in predicting inevitabilities for the libertarians.  Since that same logic can be applied to any party, I don't see your point.


I'm not advocating voting libertarian for the next fifty years.  I'm advocating voting libertarian while I still like the party, and I suspect I'll be voting for libertarian oriented candidates for the rest of my life, unless I have a change of heart.

The fact that parties that get into power necessarily seem to waiver from their original platforms, wheter as a result of compromise or corruption, doesn't seem at all relevant as to whether I'll vote for Barr or libertarians in this coming election.


And I'm not just talking about defining crime away, I'm talking about reducing the money and incentive for thugs to hurt people through the drug trade.  Lets get some legal sources of drugs people like, and watch the thugs go away- presuming they don't tax the stuff too high.

Addicts feeding their artifically-high price for their fix and profiteers who kill to maintain and enforce their contracts or buisness control would not exist anymore, at least in the drug trade.  I further doubt that the barriers to entry in many other criminal buisnesses are as low as with drugs.


Either way, the drug war is wrong, and the pragmatic effects are just a bonus.


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8726600 - 08/04/08 11:11 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:



Unlike the democrats and republicans, the libertarian message is pretty clear.




if you like fantasy land, it's quite clear



Quote:



The Libertarian Party's anti-crime plan would do what the Democrats and Republicans have not done:

    * Respect the victim's rights and make criminals pay full restitution.


HOW? in prison they earn no money and how do you pay restitution for rape, murder or child molestation?




Order it.  Obviously you can't get blood from a stone, and it is misleading to claim anyone will make anyone do something they cannot.

Quote:



[    * Reduce the number of criminals at large on our streets.

Double Durrr. I suppose twice as many cops with twice as much shiny stuff will do that, what about the cops that are criminals, what about eliminating the criminals holding public office





I've allready discussed this.  What is your complaint about politicians, that they didn't mention them?  You think they are for corruption or something?
Quote:



    * Defend the most effective crime deterrent available, the private ownership of guns.

YAY!!! they're gonna over rule the supreme court and tell us we can have guns




If you think you need to overrule the supreme court to allow gun ownership you've not been following the decisions of the court in regards to gun possesion.  There is no need to overrule anything whatsoever- what are you talking about?
 

Quote:


* Create jobs, end welfare dependence, and improve education.

how... how the hell are politicians going to create jobs with it being a welfare dependency, how will they improve education if it doesnt involve getting the feds out of schools






You cannot directly create jobs, but the theory is that if you remove barriers to market entry and allow free associations and contract there will be more jobs as well as more flexibility for employers and employees to make contracts that work for them.  I don't think this is a bad presumption, do you?

You can improve education however you want, but what is this stuff about getting the feds out of school?  Do you think the libertarians support that?  Do you think they even think its constitutional?

























Quote:

Quote:

When the democrats and republicans see they need third party voters to get a majority, and not the sheep who vote party lines without considering the candidates, they just may start changing how elections laws are, and might just start revising their posititions.




do you really think the Republicrats are going to change
election laws? do you honestly think that a 3rd party is going
to be any different than what we have now... as it stands the 2
major parties get matching campaign funds, the others get shit,
the 2 parties get equal air time (well, that's what they claim)
and everyone else gets dick... what exactly is gonna change and
how do they plan to do it... it's just like the whole 'double
the number of cops on the street, update their equipment, reduce
taxes and eliminate the drug war bullshit... there's nothing
there but smoke




I don't know if they're going to change election laws, as I said.  They may if it is in their interest too.  It will only be in their interest if they cannot win without the help of third party voters.

What is your point about the campaign funds?

And as for "what exactly is gonna change", I don't know why you're asking.  I allready said I hoped things would change.  You seem to be arguing against the liklihood of my desires coming to fruition- why?  What is your point?

What is smoke?  Do you not understand their platform, or do you just not understand whatever you copy and pasted?  Considering the wealth of information out their about libertarian philosophy, I don't understand why you pick the straw man that is the poorly written general platform you posted, and then proceed to attack it as if it represents the totality of libertarian thought.


What is your problem, you don't like what you posted? 

Quote:


Quote:

I heard in their legislature their are some small parties with a few guys in their that certainly don't have enough power to pass laws, but have enough to be corted on contentious issues- such that they can demand additions or compromise.




Libertarianism will always be a fringe political movement
because if its internal contradiction: Libertarianism’s core
philosophy is about devolving power; but as a political
movement, it is concerned with acquiring power. This is an
inescapable dichotomy for libertarianism as a political
movement, and helps explain why voters who love freedom refuse
to vote for libertarian political candidates.

Libertarianism’s greatest strength is as an intellectual
movement. As a political movement, libertarianism forever
insists upon presenting socially inept, mildly extremist
candidates who argue that their outrageous, often rigid
positions on political issues are based upon ‘principle.’
But if ‘principle’ actually guided the libertarian candidate,
then why is s/he seeking power?

We have a higher percentage of libertarians holding seats in
congress and the senate and yet they still dont have enough
power to influence the vote, I wonder if the fact that in the
last presidential election almost 60% of the libertarians voted
republican and 36% voted democrat...




I don't see the contradiction between trying to get power and using that power to limit government.  Again, I don't care whether you predict bad things will happen down the road with libertarian-oriented politicians, and I really don't see the point.  Power corrupts, so what?  If you've forgot, you get to choose who you vote for every year.  If you don't like the guy, don't vote for him.

What is the contradiction between principle and power?  I don't understand the basis for this critique at all.  What extremist views are you talking about, and why should I care?  How does that relate to who I vote for for president?  :confused:

What is this higher percentage of libertarians holding seats in congress and the senate?

Congress includes the senate, and who are the libertarians?  I guess you're not talking about the party, but about whomever you consider to be one?  Ok... who are they?

Quote:


Quote:

This is how democracy with third parties can and hopefully will work some day.  There is no reason we can't have different parties.




real change comes from within, do away with the parties, these
alliances are what's making sure more shit laws get passed
instead of the enforcement of the laws we have, do we need 8
ways of saying killing is illegal? Force candidates to seek
their own campaign funding, quit sucking it from the treasury
unless it's spread across ALL the candidates and file suit
against media outlets that arent giving equal time to each of
the candidates




Yes, I don't care for parties either, but how do you suppose we get rid of them?  Seems like a constitutional amendment would be needed, and that seems dumb.  I don't see how you can prevent folks from forming groups and such, and as such I don't see the utility of doing away with parties even if it would be legal.

Instead, folks should become informed.  Congressmen won't vote for bullshit if their constituents don't care for it and hold them accountable.

The real reason we see all this bullshit is because the people let them get away with it.  Both parties spend too much and do far too much, and no one seems to look at the voting record of their representitives, unfortunatly.


Party-line voting is still more bullshit.  I think a much better solution would be to not have the party name on ballets.  If you don't know who you're voting for, screw you.

Quote:


Quote:

Someone who simply represents the will of the people is fine as a legislator, though maybe not preferable.

I'm more inclined to believe this run reflects his true beliefs




nothing changes, it's the same shit with a different shovel,
they all claim to be representatives of the people, they all
support special interest, that being their own interests




So what, you want a congressman that doesn't support his own interests?  You want some massochist or something?  What is the utility of that?


I want an intelligent person to represent me, and intelligent people look out for their own best interest.


The problem is idiots who know nothing of what their congressman does, and thus allow them to get away with nonsense.


People that vote uninformed are the problem.  More and more I think I'd like a quiz, in theory, to have to be passed on the voting record of the incumbants in your district before you can vote for whatever position.

A quiz on the way government works, strictly limited to the consitution and laws relevant to the legislature/judiciary/presidency/ et cet, would further be nice, presuming you could prevent people screwing with it.


But if you limited things to the actual votes people casted and the law, I would think it would be meaningful, and coule exclude the majority of folks who never look at the voting record of their incumbant before voting.


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8726777 - 08/04/08 11:50 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

pothead_bob said:
Quote:

hey, look we cut crime by 63% in one year




Nobody is stopping the dems and republicans from doing the same thing and making the same claim.




except they gain more by keeping it the way it is, more money for
black ops that they can cover with toilet seats and ash trays


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: johnm214]
    #8727056 - 08/05/08 01:17 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:


The Libertarian Party's anti-crime plan would do what the Democrats and Republicans have not done:

    * Respect the victim's rights and make criminals pay full restitution.


HOW? in prison they earn no money and how do you pay restitution for rape, murder or child molestation?




Order it.  Obviously you can't get blood from a stone, and it is misleading to claim anyone will make anyone do something they cannot.




so it's simply another game of make the claim to entice people that have been victimized just to make them victims of the libertarian con game...

Quote:

Quote:


[    * Reduce the number of criminals at large on our streets.

Double Durrr. I suppose twice as many cops with twice as much shiny stuff will do that, what about the cops that are criminals, what about eliminating the criminals holding public office





I've allready discussed this.  What is your complaint about politicians, that they didn't mention them?  You think they are for corruption or something?




they certainly arent for the american people, they're out for political power, for their own piece of the pie


Quote:

Quote:


    * Defend the most effective crime deterrent available, the private ownership of guns.
YAY!!! they're gonna over rule the supreme court and tell us we can have guns



If you think you need to overrule the supreme court to allow gun ownership you've not been following the decisions of the court in regards to gun possesion.  There is no need to overrule anything whatsoever- what are you talking about?




sarcasm, FTW! it's a comment on how little political control
they have but would like you to believe they can have, the
supreme court made a decision on the 2nd, what more is there to
defend, opressive laws that are already on the books, do they
plan on repealing the NFA or fighting to allow me my very own
navy destroyer? maybe a few small nukes

Quote:

Quote:


* Create jobs, end welfare dependence, and improve education.
how... how the hell are politicians going to create jobs with it being a welfare dependency, how will they improve education if it doesnt involve getting the feds out of schools





You cannot directly create jobs, but the theory is that if you remove barriers to market entry and allow free associations and contract there will be more jobs as well as more flexibility for employers and employees to make contracts that work for them.  I don't think this is a bad presumption, do you?




Sure... more corporate welfare

Create jobs, give illegals amnesty, allow easier access for more immigrants to fill more jobs they're creating. I think I like it better the way it is, fewer jobs means fewer illegals jumping the border because life isnt much better here, as it stands in a city near me more than 4000 illegals have left because of plant closures, they cant find work so the invade another city or even move back home...


Quote:

You can improve education however you want, but what is this stuff about getting the feds out of school?  Do you think the libertarians support that?  Do you think they even think its constitutional?




arent they advocating invading the private schools as well to
allow this income diversity, well shit, that's the federal
government remaining in educationor maybe the otherside of the
coin is to privatize the school system in which case it'll be a
system where once public schools are now charging for attendence
I must say, they are really vague on what they see as being
education reform

they also seem to want to blame the schools for the failure in
education not the students, every student in each schools can
receive the same education, it's up to the students to take it,
it's being offered, some decide to have a future, in the
shittiest of schools some students excel while others simply do
nothing, is it the teachers fault that johnny didnt want to take
the test and decided to ditch class? The libertarians seem to
think so








Quote:

What is your point about the campaign funds?




it should be out of pocket and donations, no tax money divided between 2 parties


Quote:

What is smoke?  Do you not understand their platform, or do you just not understand whatever you copy and pasted?  Considering the wealth of information out their about libertarian philosophy, I don't understand why you pick the straw man that is the poorly written general platform you posted, and then proceed to attack it as if it represents the totality of libertarian thought.




once again, how will they achieve this restitution
In addition, Libertarians would do more than just punish criminals. We would also make them pay restitution to their victims for the damage they've caused, including property loss, medical costs, pain, and suffering. If you are the victim of a crime, the criminal should fully compensate you for your loss.

so waiting 5 minutes for the instant check is too long or do they intend to trample states rights to make laws
Libertarians would repeal waiting periods, concealed carry laws, and other restrictions that make it difficult for victims to defend themselves, and end the prosecution of individuals for exercising their rights of self-defense.

do they plan on ending individual welfare and increasing corporate welfare in order to make more jobs? are they saying
they can force a kid to learn what he's being taught by privatizing the school system and forcing lower income families to pay for their kids to attend school
The Libertarian Party would increase employment opportunities by slashing taxes and government red tape. We would also end the welfare system with its culture of dependence and hopelessness. Most important of all, we would promote low-cost private alternatives to the failed government school system.

Quote:

What is your problem, you don't like what you posted? 




have you actually read the shit on their site?

Quote:

  If you've forgot, you get to choose who you vote for every year.  If you don't like the guy, don't vote for him.




so much for healthy discussion, it's probably the way the
libertarian party came up with their platform on the issues
"well, I'm tired of talking about it, just write something down,
we'll fill in the blanks later"


Quote:

why should I care?




lessor of evils?


Quote:

Yes, I don't care for parties either, but how do you suppose we get rid of them?  Seems like a constitutional amendment would be needed, and that seems dumb.




sounds just as dumb as the redundant legislation I was referring to but it's simpler than that, use the same methodology that the FBI uses to eliminate the 'hate groups', through infiltration and exposure, at the very least it'll clean things out a little


Quote:

Instead, folks should become informed.




I've been trying to do just that, did you know the libertarian
party supports open borders and amnesty of 30 million illegal
aliens in addition to desiring provisions to naturalize others
that come across the borders illegally?

Quote:

Congressmen won't vote for bullshit if their constituents don't care for it and hold them accountable.

The real reason we see all this bullshit is because the people let them get away with it.




accountability... that's the root of the problem, when sitting congressmen are jailed for bad checks, then we're making headway
when a lawmakers sentence is double that of a regular citizen, then we've begun to gain momentum


Quote:

So what, you want a congressman that doesn't support his own interests?
I want an intelligent person to represent me, and intelligent people look out for their own best interest.




when I look out for my best interests, you may get shit on, when a republican looks out for his, you may find yourself a criminal of a victimless crime while he's bank account gets a bit larger

I'd like to see someone in office that looks out for his constituents




Quote:

People that vote uninformed are the problem.


 


Quote:

johnm214 said:
A vote for barr is a vote for the libertarian agenda, which he's advocated.



Quote:

johnm214 said:
I don't know his stance on illegal immigration, but i support plans such as bush's.  Barr wants to just pardon everyone?




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OfflinePhred
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8728594 - 08/05/08 01:38 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Let's get this thread back on topic, please. There are already several hundred threads here dealing with Libertarianism/Laissez-faire Capitalism/Minarchism, but there's just this one dealing with Obama's reluctance to debate McCain in a Town Hall format.

If y'all want to continue discussing Libertarianism, bump an old thread.





Phred


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: Phred]
    #8728608 - 08/05/08 01:43 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

"The moderators for the 2008 presidential and vice presidential debates have been announced and once again they all have one thing in common: they are all liberal hacks from the main stream media. This year's questioners are NBC's Tom Brokaw, CBS' Bob Schieffer and PBS' Jim Lehrer and Gwen Iffl.

Pathetic choices, again.




McCain should demand at least one token conservative!


Brit Hume?




http://gopnation.com/wordpress/2008/08/05/debate-moderators-liberalagain/


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8728891 - 08/05/08 02:51 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

As a fellow liberal, I'm sure it doesn't bother McCain.


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8728917 - 08/05/08 02:56 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Or anyone from the Fox (Faux News) team, they're all GOP idiots.


--------------------
Muppet Said:

so yeah:
- 'sex' five times
- once with a man
- once with a cadaver
- and thrice with actual women(all of which were prostitutes)
Best story ever!

www.panicstream.com :thumbup:


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8728923 - 08/05/08 02:58 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I also keep trying to figure out what Texas puts in the water to make you people so sheepish?

:flowstone: "I'm a Cowboy!!"


--------------------
Muppet Said:

so yeah:
- 'sex' five times
- once with a man
- once with a cadaver
- and thrice with actual women(all of which were prostitutes)
Best story ever!

www.panicstream.com :thumbup:


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: pinkfloydms]
    #8729118 - 08/05/08 03:40 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

pinkfloydms said:
I also keep trying to figure out what Texas puts in the water to make you people so sheepish?

:flowstone: "I'm a Cowboy!!"




:shrug: Maybe Redstorm knows (i think he lives in Houston Texas.) :smirk:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: lonestar2004]
    #8729171 - 08/05/08 03:51 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I always saw McCain as a pretty liberal republican anyways.  Maybe he's conservitive in comparison to Obama.

He's for global warming legislation and gun control isn't he?


--------------------
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upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8729776 - 08/05/08 06:20 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

this says it all if they debate more then 3 times.
mccain would open his lead even more on the issues. All this in less then 2 weeks?


http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/voters_trust_for_mccain_on_key_issues_growing


--------------------

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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8729910 - 08/05/08 06:48 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

pothead bob writes:

Quote:

Maybe he's conservitive in comparison to Obama.




Hillary Clinton is conservative in comparison to Obama. Hell, Ted freaking Kennedy is conservative in comparison to Obama!





Phred


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: Phred]
    #8729920 - 08/05/08 06:51 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Is Obama really that liberal? Hmm


--------------------
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                                                part of the world belongs to me
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                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: zouden]
    #8730016 - 08/05/08 07:15 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

A lot of people say so, but I wouldn't say he's as liberal as Dennis Kucinich. 

Besides, talking liberal and being liberal are 2 different things.  Obama seems like an empty suit to me. 

Phred, I always saw Clinton as kind of on the conservative side for being a dem.  Always seemed to me like she was trying to show that she had a set of testicles as big as any other guy running for Prez.



--------------------
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which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
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Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: pothead_bob]
    #8730101 - 08/05/08 07:37 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

A lot of people say so, but I wouldn't say he's as liberal as Dennis Kucinich. 




It has been determined from his voting record that he's the most liberal senator there. Even whackjob Kucinich doesn't vote as consistently Libbie as Obama.

Now, it could very well be that his voting record doesn't reflect the "inner Obama", but it is an objective and verifiable metric by which to determine - from his actions - his Liberalness.




Phred


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: Phred]
    #8730596 - 08/05/08 09:06 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

He may be the most liberal senator, but Dennis is in the House, so it's a more difficult comparison.  I probably shouldn't have chosen that comparison, but I was just looking in terms of his views on healthcare and the fact that Kuccinich introduced articles of impeachment against the bush admin.

Anyways, I think Obama's going to end up taking this election despite backing down from McCain.  Bush has thouroughly fucked this country in every possible orifice over the last 8 years.  McCain has a major wall to overcome.


--------------------
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which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: Phred]
    #8730708 - 08/05/08 09:25 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

A lot of people say so, but I wouldn't say he's as liberal as Dennis Kucinich. 




It has been determined from his voting record that he's the most liberal senator there. Even whackjob Kucinich doesn't vote as consistently Libbie as Obama.

Now, it could very well be that his voting record doesn't reflect the "inner Obama", but it is an objective and verifiable metric by which to determine - from his actions - his Liberalness.




Phred




doesn't matter if he's liberal or conservative or a drooling moron (Hi Bush! What are you doing here?), once he's there, anything he says will be written beforehand. A dead horse could do the presidents job, but no one would vote for a dead horse.


--------------------
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slide down a pole than with your legs spread and using your pussy as a brake. Ask the fire department :imslow:


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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #8732664 - 08/06/08 10:20 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Don't be too sure of that.  Did you ever see the episode of the Awful Truth where Michael Moore ran a ficus tree against a congressman?  Voters had to write the tree in and votes that were counted showed a 4-1 lead of the ficus over the congressman.  Hell, I'd vote for a tree over quite a few congressmen.

It's pretty funny.  The videos are up on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=michael+moore+ficus&search_type=&aq=f


--------------------
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Re: Obama backs away from McCain's debate challenge [Re: deadmeat986]
    #8765633 - 08/13/08 12:48 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deadmeat986 said:
yea mccain has run a poor campain no dought there. But obama has drop 10% to mccain in a week and its not because of one tv ad from mccain. Obama has had everything his way yet its tie with an guy thats running a bad campain? Obama has aready attacked mccain one everything what more is he going to say that we 've already heard?




Obama can walk on water, and make blind men see? :rotfl:


--------------------

"They look like psychos? Is that what they looked like? They were vampires. Psychos do not explode when sunlight hits 'em. I don't give a fuck how crazy they are!"

"Eric Stratton.. Rush chairman.. Damn glad to meet you.."


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