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Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/07/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
Re: Moore hits back [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1952392 - 09/25/03 10:04 PM (18 years, 1 day ago)

Contrary to your screen name,I don't see you as one of the "righties" really.

I don't care how they get it as long as they watch it.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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Anonymous

Re: Moore hits back [Re: Edame]
    #1952430 - 09/25/03 10:18 PM (18 years, 1 day ago)

:lol:


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/13/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: Moore hits back [Re: Edame]
    #1952788 - 09/26/03 12:27 AM (18 years, 1 day ago)

Micheal Moore does rock. He is a good man. He is an honest man. People who cant even look at their president with skepticism but go so far as to be racist scum .. wow.

As for Autonomous.... Have you seen the movie? Moore is not anti gun.

Period.

He makes the point that he is a member of the NRA. That Canada has more guns per capita then america does and they are perfectly civil. If you look at the message of this film Moore never comes off as antigun, even in his focus with the NRA, he is deconstructing violence and the American psyche. Not their gun laws.

Boo. Hiss. I would have expected that you had actually watched the movie if you were going to brand the man.


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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: Moore hits back [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1952930 - 09/26/03 01:22 AM (18 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
Moore is not anti gun.



Did I state that he is 'anti-gun?' So what if he's a member of the NRA? Did you know there are arsonists who work as firefighters? Did you know that there are cops who are thieves? The bottom line is that he is promoting more gun control laws such as with this...
"Collectively, as Americans, we support gun control," said Mr. Moore. "The majority of Americans want to see this insanity ended. And yet a small but very vocal group has Congress constantly afraid to do the right thing. I hope you'll see in the film tonight that, when you pull back the curtain on the big bad Wizard of Oz called the NRA, that there's nothing to be afraid of."


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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OfflineSquattingMarmot
Inquiring Mind
Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 418
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: Moore hits back [Re: Autonomous]
    #1953031 - 09/26/03 01:57 AM (18 years, 1 day ago)

I dunno Auto.. I tend to agree with kitten about this one. Bowling for Columbine is not anti-gun. While you have pointed out that Moore supports gun-control, in the movie I believe he placed the blame with people, not with the guns.


--------------------
"In the United States anybody can be president. Thats the problem."

"The gray-haired douche bag, Barbara Bush, has a slogan: "Encourage your child to read every day." What she should be is encouraging children to question what they read every day."

- George Carlin


Edited by SquattingMarmot (09/26/03 02:07 AM)


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Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
Re: Moore hits back [Re: SquattingMarmot]
    #1953867 - 09/26/03 11:11 AM (18 years, 20 hours ago)

regardless of the technicalities...the movie was a big
win for the gun control lobby.

average americans are only so critical and can remember
so much after reading a book or watching a television show
or film...

guns bad....gun control laws good.

technically Bush never said 'they gonna come nuke us
tommorrow', but everyone in the country seems to have
gotten it in their head that Iraq was a threat and that we
needed a war against them.

enough inuendo and speech laden with plausible deniability
and you can control the hearts and minds.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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Anonymous

Re: Moore hits back [Re: afoaf]
    #1953886 - 09/26/03 11:18 AM (18 years, 20 hours ago)

guns bad....gun control laws good.

:thumbdown:

i guess we know where you stand on the idea of victimless crimes.


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: Moore hits back [Re: ]
    #1954055 - 09/26/03 12:56 PM (18 years, 19 hours ago)

Moore deliberatly distorts the truth on many occasions throught the film. And by the academy rules a documentary must be fact in the whole. Staging the bank scene where he gets the gun is not what i call fact. Also cutting other words up to make new sentences and paragraphs in not what i call honest.

Here i decided to take Moore's speech and give it the treatment he gave Heston in his film. Now i QUOTE what Moore said in his article:

"I fantasize about roughhousing with pre-adolescent brothers. "Bowling for Columbine" and "Stupid White Men" are lies. I am a just plain lazy fat fucking piece of shit."

Hrm that was just a little bit to easy. Oscar worthy i would say.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
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Re: Moore hits back [Re: Edame]
    #1954092 - 09/26/03 01:11 PM (18 years, 18 hours ago)

The first part of that self-serving screed was basically him insulting those who have insulted him. Fair enough. He has the right to do that. Some of his critics go overboard. The fact that he is not exactly a Chippendale's dancer in appearance is irrelevant to what he writes or films, after all.

But when it comes to the "debunking", he fails completely. The bank scene was staged. Calling it a "movie" doesn't excuse the fact that he misrepresented what actually occurs when one opens a new account at that bank.

His sidesteps on the Lockheed Martin misrepresentation are similar. They don't change the fact that the comments he made in the film are wrong. Lies, if you will.

The Charleton Heston thing is even worse. He claims that Heston said exactly these things at exactly this time. Fine... why didn't he show exactly those things in exactly that order rather than cobbling together a carefully-edited fiction?

His excuse is basically what he has said all along once caught out... "Hey, it's a movie, fah cryin' out loud! It's entertainment! Lighten up!"

Well, yeah, it's a movie. Duh! So was Oliver Stone's movie about the Kennedy assasination, but you never saw Stone entering it as a documentary, much less accepting an Oscar for it under false pretenses.

If Moore gives back the Oscar with apologies, it will do a lot to quell the flack he's taking. Anyone want to place a bet in the pool I'm starting as to when that will happen? As the organizer of the pool, I must in fairness tell y'all that I have already taken the slot marked "never".

You will have noticed by now that he has addressed maybe three or four of the dozens of instances where he has been nailed, and no instances having anything to do with his book.

pinky



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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
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Re: Moore hits back [Re: Phred]
    #1954168 - 09/26/03 01:43 PM (18 years, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

But when it comes to the "debunking", he fails completely. The bank scene was staged. Calling it a "movie" doesn't excuse the fact that he misrepresented what actually occurs when one opens a new account at that bank.



What was staged about it?

Quote:

His sidesteps on the Lockheed Martin misrepresentation are similar. They don't change the fact that the comments he made in the film are wrong. Lies, if you will.



Ok, explain to me again what he misrepresented here.

Quote:

The Charleton Heston thing is even worse. He claims that Heston said exactly these things at exactly this time. Fine... why didn't he show exactly those things in exactly that order rather than cobbling together a carefully-edited fiction?



Um...maybe because he didn't want to bore the audience by showing the whole damn speech. They do this same thing in news reports all the time. They show the hilights of the speech so as not to bore the viewers with short attention spans.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: Moore hits back [Re: silversoul7]
    #1954226 - 09/26/03 02:01 PM (18 years, 18 hours ago)

If you haven't yet checked the many websites explaining how it was staged, I suggest you do so. The fact is, you don't walk into that bank, open an account, and walk out with a gun.

The plant he indicates doesn't make weapons of mass destruction.

He did one hell of a lot more than just excerpt highlights of a speech. There is one site out there which details exquisitely (like right down to how many seconds into each speech, practically even which frame) the enormous amount of cutting, pasting, shifting, combining Moore did to make it appear that Heston expressed views he never expressed. That site has been posted here before. That site even tells you where you can find the tapes of the original speeches in their entirety so you can see what Heston actually said.

If you choose to believe Moore told the truth, no amount of evidence anyone shows you will convince you otherwise. That is your right, of course. But if you are too lazy too investigate for yourself the reams and reams of highly detailed, multiply-linked proofs of his misrepresentations, inaccuracies, and actual fabrications, don't be arguing with those who have.

The guy lied. Repeatedly, deliberately, maliciously. Then he lies about having lied. I'm glad you enjoyed "Bowling for Columbine". I hope you found it entertaining. But if you treat it as anything other than "just a movie" or "entertainment", to quote Moore himself, you are doing yourself a disservice.

pinky


--------------------


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InvisibleEdame
gone

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1,270
Loc: outta here
Re: Moore hits back [Re: Phred]
    #1954247 - 09/26/03 02:09 PM (18 years, 17 hours ago)

The bank scene was staged. Calling it a "movie" doesn't excuse the fact that he misrepresented what actually occurs when one opens a new account at that bank.

How exactly did he 'stage' the bank bit? He just claimed that he filmed it as it happened.

His sidesteps on the Lockheed Martin misrepresentation are similar. They don't change the fact that the comments he made in the film are wrong. Lies, if you will.

Again, he denies this, what 'lies' did he say?

The Charleton Heston thing is even worse. He claims that Heston said exactly these things at exactly this time. Fine... why didn't he show exactly those things in exactly that order rather than cobbling together a carefully-edited fiction?

Why don't news organisations show speeches and press conferences in their entirety? Why don't they show exactly what is said instead of choosing 'soundbites' to get their message across? Maybe they have an agenda, maybe they don't have enough time to show every second of footage they have.

His excuse is basically what he has said all along once caught out... "Hey, it's a movie, fah cryin' out loud! It's entertainment! Lighten up!"

Where does he mention this excuse? Why does he then make a claim like this, which is just inviting a lawsuit:

I can guarantee to you, without equivocation, that every fact in my movie is true. Three teams of fact-checkers and two groups of lawyers went through it with a fine tooth comb to make sure that every statement of fact is indeed an indisputable fact. Trust me, no film company would ever release a film like this without putting it through the most vigorous vetting process possible. The sheer power and threat of the NRA is reason enough to strike fear in any movie studio or theater chain. The NRA will go after you without mercy if they think there's half a chance of destroying you.

In light of that claim, I actually have to agree with him on the awards thing. If someone can prove that he actually lied, then I'd be all for taking the award away too, but he makes a pretty bold statement, a challenge if you will.

Look at how many awards this film won. It's been judged and viewed by people all over the world. I find it hard to see how such a 'pack of lies' as some people would put it, could fool so many people. How many of his many awards have been rescinded in light of this supposed mountain of evidence against him?

My guess as to why he hasn't mentioned the book is because this is about the film.

d33p:
Here i decided to take Moore's speech and give it the treatment he gave Heston in his film. Now i QUOTE what Moore said in his article:

"I fantasize about roughhousing with pre-adolescent brothers. "Bowling for Columbine" and "Stupid White Men" are lies. I am a just plain lazy fat fucking piece of shit."

Hrm that was just a little bit to easy. Oscar worthy i would say.


No, what you've done is libellous because you haven't acknowledged the gaps (Edit: Ellipsis) between the quotes. Moore does this in the video by interspersing other footage.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


Edited by Edame (09/26/03 02:59 PM)


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/13/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: Moore hits back [Re: Autonomous]
    #1954338 - 09/26/03 02:39 PM (18 years, 17 hours ago)

Oh, I'm sorry.. sensible gun laws are a bad thing, I guess. Any ole joe should have access to an ak 47.

Cool.


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
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Re: Moore hits back [Re: Edame]
    #1954407 - 09/26/03 02:59 PM (18 years, 17 hours ago)

Well, moors facts and links are far more convincing than said websites with said 'proof' of his deceptions. :tongue:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: Moore hits back [Re: Edame]
    #1954420 - 09/26/03 03:04 PM (18 years, 17 hours ago)

Quote:

Edame said:
No, what you've done is libellous because you haven't acknowledged the gaps between the quotes. Moore does this in the video by interspersing other footage.




ok here

pretend i put this on a video with a pic of moore while i read this.
[sound]= implies a play a sound of 1 decibel which is intersplicing in this case

"I [sound] fantasize[sound]about[sound]roughhousing[sound]with [sound]pre-adolescent[sound] brothers. "Bowling for Columbine" and "Stupid White Men" [sound] are [sound]lies. [sound]I [sound]am [sound]a [sound]just plain lazy [sound]fat fucking piece of shit."

Now this is to the extent of what moore did. Sure he may have showed a pic of the crowd inbetween but one would think that is usual of the speech footage. I even put in more sounds than needed.

This may not be illegal by any means but this sure is dishonest. We are talking the oscars not pepitos back country movie awards. I would admit moore did a masterfull job at making this movie, buts just what it is a movie not a documentary worthy of an oscar.

And edame you can call up that very bank and ask them if moore had previously gone into the bank and set up what he was going to film. And guess what the answer they provide is?

YES

And about lockheed moore used the term missle which implies military bombs although they only make sattilite rockets. Also he says they ship them around town under the cover of darkness while the kids of columbine speak. Rockets are super heavy so they move slow while being transported. They do it at night to avoid traffic jams. If you dont this is distorting the truth, you sir are a dumbass.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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InvisibleEdame
gone

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1,270
Loc: outta here
Re: Moore hits back [Re: d33p]
    #1954510 - 09/26/03 03:29 PM (18 years, 16 hours ago)

ok here

pretend i put this on a video with a pic of moore while i read this.
[sound]= implies a play a sound of 1 decibel which is intersplicing in this case

"I [sound] fantasize[sound]about[sound]roughhousing[sound]with [sound]pre-adolescent[sound] brothers. "Bowling for Columbine" and "Stupid White Men" [sound] are [sound]lies. [sound]I [sound]am [sound]a [sound]just plain lazy [sound]fat fucking piece of shit."

Now this is to the extent of what moore did. Sure he may have showed a pic of the crowd inbetween but one would think that is usual of the speech footage. I even put in more sounds than needed.


I can't see how that's anything like what Moore did. MM visually, audiably, and noticably cut away to other footage between each quote. How is showing a picture of him with a doctored audio track seperated by a 1 decibel burst of sound even close to what he did? I think your analogy is desperate to say the least.

And edame you can call up that very bank and ask them if moore had previously gone into the bank and set up what he was going to film. And guess what the answer they provide is?

YES


And where did you get this information from? What are they referring to when they say "YES" he called to 'set up' his filming? Are they saying he told them in advance he wanted to open an account and film it (sounds perfectly reasonable to me)? If not, what exactly were they referring to?

And about lockheed moore used the term missle which implies military bombs although they only make sattilite rockets.

Missile: An object or weapon that is fired, thrown, dropped, or otherwise projected at a target; a projectile.

Also he says they ship them around town under the cover of darkness while the kids of columbine speak. Rockets are super heavy so they move slow while being transported. They do it at night to avoid traffic jams.

So by what you say, his claim was still factually correct that they ship them at night while the children sleep.

If you dont this is distorting the truth, you sir are a dumbass.

Nice, I don't agree with the way you see things so you attack my character.





--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
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Re: Moore hits back [Re: Edame]
    #1954521 - 09/26/03 03:34 PM (18 years, 16 hours ago)

Quote:

Nice, I don't agree with the way you see things so you attack my character.



That's pretty much the gist of it, ya.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: Moore hits back [Re: Edame]
    #1954827 - 09/26/03 05:21 PM (18 years, 14 hours ago)

I give up.

If you don't want to read how it was done, I can't make you. Any of you.

The fact is, that you cannot walk into that bank, open an account, and waltz right back out again with a gun in your hand.

The fact is, the Lockheed martin plant in the film doesn't make "missiles".

The fact is, Moore didn't just do "selective editing" to cut down the length of a speech, selecting only the most interesting portions. He made up a fictional rant out of whole cloth which deliberately misrepresents Heston's points.

The fact is, there are over a dozen more exposures of his dishonesty he chooses to ignore completely.

There have been links to sites posted in this forum before which illustrate in much greater detail these and other examples. If you choose not to investigate, so be it, I'm not going to post them all here again. Why bother? It doesn't matter to me who chooses to believe Moore's lies or even Moore's lies about his lies.

I just find it ironic that when a hero of the Lefty-Libbie crowd does something so blatant, all the Lefty-Libbies rush to his defense, falling all over themselves to see who can come up with the most hair-splittingly slippery redefinition of the word "lie" so they can claim what Moore did wasn't really lying. The standards of Libbie "truth" vary from day to day and upon whom the lens of inquiry is focused, it seems.

That sword slices both ways -- if what Moore did wasn't "lying", then for sure what Bush and Blair and the rest said about intelligence reports re Iraq's capabilities most certainly wasn't lying.

pinky


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Moore hits back [Re: Phred]
    #1954947 - 09/26/03 05:55 PM (18 years, 14 hours ago)

^^^
well said! :thumbup:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Moore hits back [Re: Phred]
    #1955133 - 09/26/03 06:40 PM (18 years, 13 hours ago)

Bravo pinky. BRAVO!


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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