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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Help with ID bluing pan species! YES ITS ACTIVE! NEW PICS on page 2 [Re: Workman]
    #8553014 - 06/23/08 04:58 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Very cool, these sure look like castaneifolius spores. 


Also I notice that the stems don't have vertical lines like subb stems do.


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Invisiblecreekfreek
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Re: Help with ID bluing pan species! YES ITS ACTIVE! NEW PICS on page 2 [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8553340 - 06/23/08 08:33 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Congrats Weilii.
Nice finds.
Keep up the great work man.:congrats:


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Invisibleweiliiiiiii
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Re: Help with ID bluing pan species! YES ITS ACTIVE! NEW PICS on page 2 [Re: Workman]
    #8555270 - 06/23/08 07:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Cool, i knew they werent subbs they just didnt seem right.


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Invisibleweiliiiiiii
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Re: Help with ID bluing pan species! YES ITS ACTIVE! NEW PICS on page 2 [Re: weiliiiiiii]
    #8555276 - 06/23/08 07:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Thank you workman, great work as usual.:thumbup:


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Offlinepsilophile82
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Re: Help with ID bluing pan species! YES ITS ACTIVE! NEW PICS on page 2 [Re: weiliiiiiii]
    #8555380 - 06/23/08 07:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

those last pics are awesome!AWESOME THREAD>>>>FIVE SHROOMS FOR WEILIII!:mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:


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"chaos is the nature of order"


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OfflineWorkmanV
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Re: Help with ID bluing pan species! YES ITS ACTIVE! NEW PICS on page 2 [Re: psilophile82]
    #8555722 - 06/23/08 09:23 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Microscopy complete.  Spores are a good match for P. castaneifolia as described by Gerhardt.

http://www.sporeworksgallery.com/Subgenus-Panaeolina/Panaeolus_castaneifolius_Georgia


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Edited by Workman (07/02/08 02:12 PM)


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Invisibleweiliiiiiii
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Re: Help with ID bluing pan species! YES ITS ACTIVE! NEW PICS on page 2 [Re: Workman]
    #8555763 - 06/23/08 09:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Do subbs have larger spores than casters?


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Invisiblecreekfreek
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Re: Help with ID bluing pan species! YES ITS ACTIVE! NEW PICS on page 2 [Re: weiliiiiiii]
    #8555901 - 06/23/08 10:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I would give you 5 shrooms but I already rated you.
Great job man!:thumbup::congrats::bigblunt:


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Invisibleweiliiiiiii
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Re: Help with ID bluing pan species! YES ITS ACTIVE! NEW PICS on page 2 [Re: creekfreek]
    #8555912 - 06/23/08 10:11 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks buddy:thumbup:


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OfflineWorkmanV
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Re: Help with ID bluing pan species! YES ITS ACTIVE! NEW PICS on page 2 [Re: weiliiiiiii]
    #8556009 - 06/23/08 10:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

weiliiiiiii said:
Do subbs have larger spores than casters?




According to Stamets:
Panaeolus castaneifolius 12-15
Panaeolus subbalteatus  11.5-14

According to Gerhardt:
Panaeolus castaneifolius 13-17(19) (as P. castaneifolia) 
Panaeolus subbalteatus  11-14(16) (as P. cinctulus)

So yeah, looks like on average P. castaneifolius spores are larger than P. subbalteatus.

errata:  I wrongly posted the spore sizes for P olivaceus 11-16(18) microns as Gerhardt's castaneifolius.  The corrected size range now agrees better with the collection.


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Edited by Workman (07/02/08 02:05 PM)


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Invisiblecactu
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Re: Help with ID bluing pan species! YES ITS ACTIVE! NEW PICS on page 2 [Re: Workman]
    #8556100 - 06/23/08 10:55 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:laugh:iam happy

every time we get to know more species  , i get this  good felling .
my good vibrations  to you weilliiii


--------------------

cuando una rafaga del pensamiento nos pasa  al lado se puede sentir  que valio  la pena  haber vivido, y cuando ese pensamiento se  convierte en sueño no paramos de soñar hasta realizarlo


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OfflineWorkmanV
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Re: Help with ID bluing pan species! YES ITS ACTIVE! NEW PICS on page 2 [Re: Workman]
    #8651251 - 07/18/08 03:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Comments by a real mycologist has caused me to reassess this identification.  This may actually be better described as Panaeolus olivaceus, which I did consider but rejected as a European species unlikely to be found in Georgia.  But apparently the species is widespread and has been reported from North American and Australia as well as Europe.

What adds to the confusion is that Ola'h's description of P. castaneifolius was based on a sample of P. olivaceus and not the original collection of Panaeolina castaneifolia Murrill which Ola'h thought he was reclassifying (apparently unaware of the original collection's availability).  According to Gerhardt this makes the name P. castaneifolius invalid.

The spores of P. castaneifolia are much rougher and similar to P. foeniseciiP. olivaceus spores are finely roughened and more transparent with visible oil drops. 

The immature spores of P. olivaceus are green when in water under the microscope but this color fades when the spores are in KOH (which is what I use).  I need to recheck the spores in water to see if this feature is present.

 

This confusion also means that publications using Ola'h (1969) to describe P. castaneifolius are actually descriptions of P. olivaceus. This includes Stamets' Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World.  Which has mixed the two species into one description.  Using the description of P. castaneifolius from the readily available Stamets as an example (page 74), we have P. olivaceus macro and microscopic features well described but the habit, habitat and distribution information is of P. castaneifolia.  The statement that
Quote:

some but not all collections of this species contain psilocybin


is probably also a result of this confusion.  What a mess.

The spores of real P. castaneifolia are dark brown in deposit and its unlikely to be Psilocybin active.  This would explain the oft repeated comment that P. castaneifolius is often mistaken for P. foenisecii.  Gerhardt also says that large brown collections of P. olivaceus could be confused with P. subbalteatus  (P. cinctulus) :stars:

Geez, I hope that makes sense to someone.


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Edited by Workman (07/18/08 07:02 PM)


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OfflineWorkmanV
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Re: Help with ID bluing pan species! YES ITS ACTIVE! NEW PICS on page 2 [Re: Workman]
    #8651631 - 07/18/08 05:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So upon further reflection, I wasn't technically wrong after all.

My first attempt at identification was that this species was:

Panaeolus castaneifolius which is an invalid synonym of Panaeolus olivaceus.  But they are describing the same species so both names can be used without too much confusion.

Panaeolina castaneifolia is a completely different species similar to Panaeolina foenisecii, both of which have rough and dark brown spores in deposit (prints) which is what makes them Panaeolina instead of Panaeolus.  So maybe some of the brown spored mushrooms collected during Panaeolus subbalteatus hunts are actually Panaeolina castaneifolia.

I feel much better now.


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Edited by Workman (07/18/08 05:37 PM)


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Help with ID bluing pan species! YES ITS ACTIVE! NEW PICS on page 2 [Re: Workman]
    #8651704 - 07/18/08 05:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Gerhardt also says that large brown collections of P. olivaceus could be confused with P. subbalteatus




We will have to watch out for them.

He isn't using P. cinctulus for subbalteatus?


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OfflineWorkmanV
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Re: Help with ID bluing pan species! YES ITS ACTIVE! NEW PICS on page 2 [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8651872 - 07/18/08 06:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You are correct sir.  I almost put that but I lost my train of thought.  I'll amend it.


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Offlinepsilophile82
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Re: Help with ID bluing pan species! YES ITS ACTIVE! NEW PICS on page 2 [Re: Workman]
    #8654225 - 07/19/08 09:06 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Has anyone done chemical analysis on these specimen?


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Offlinecosmicsea
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Re: Help with ID bluing pan species! YES ITS ACTIVE! NEW PICS on page 2 [Re: psilophile82]
    #8654527 - 07/19/08 12:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

All right. Nice finds.  Since I've been checking around here in Florida lawns for awhile and listened to many debates about Panaeolus species, formed my own opinions about it.  I never see Psathyrella Foe's in lawns.  Those are brown spored mushrooms.  Panaeolus are black.  I always assume nature will modify itself and nothing is black and white textbook script.  I think most of the lawn mushrooms in Florida (and you may be seeing them now up there in a similar way...albeit in a horse pasture) are active, either weak or moderate. 

From my reading and thinking I would call those Pan caster's because like you said they are not subbs and that's obvious.  I don't think any black spored Pan's are poisonous beyond slight digestive upset.  From what I've seen in Florida lawns you generally see Pan Casters and Foen's (not psathy) which are all black and at times real Pan Subbs which are obvious by the cap. If I see a lawn shroom panaeolus that is black spored then I'm going to say its weakly or moderately active. As you know there have been sightings of 3 species here. The common lawn conocybe is a good locator for them.

Here is a small Pan Caster growing from the edge of a new slab of grass.  Like I said I disagree with a lot of limitations the texts put on region and form, it's always possible to see something new or varying.




note that its a small specimen and it was full grown, but definitely active and good moderate strength. only eat fresh.  they have the classic panaeolus flavor.... lol

Peace !


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OfflineHotnuts
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Re: Help with ID bluing pan species! YES ITS ACTIVE! NEW PICS on page 2 [Re: cosmicsea]
    #8654602 - 07/19/08 12:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

That looks like Panaeolus subbalteatus to me.


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Invisibleweiliiiiiii
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Re: Help with ID bluing pan species! YES ITS ACTIVE! NEW PICS on page 2 [Re: Hotnuts]
    #8655344 - 07/19/08 04:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

why do you think thats a caster?


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Offlinecosmicsea
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Re: Help with ID bluing pan species! YES ITS ACTIVE! NEW PICS on page 2 [Re: weiliiiiiii]
    #8655547 - 07/19/08 04:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

mine or yours?? well both I think.  but thats if I have to choose between what is available in the texts.  its not subb and not foe, what else could it be within reason?  just a matter of simplicity.  cuz I started questioning a lot of the normal ideas since in florida its weird you'll find a mix between a subb and cast, skinny stem but more prominent cap lines.  i've found all to be active, and the thing is most "shroomers" in fla do not want to try it b cuz of the obvious mentality to go for the well known cubensis and other pasture flora
what do you say??


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Mushroom Hunting and Identification

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