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societal imprinting
    #8509869 -

There is no question that certain things about ourselves are products of the culture in which we're born into and brought up in, such as a feeling of embarrassment in being nude in public, etcetera. However, where should the line be drawn as to what is due to conditioning and what is actually, transcendently "true"? Maybe the question isn't clear. I don't know. I'm just interested in hearing your thoughts on this matter.


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Re: societal imprinting [Re: whatsgrimace]
    #8509884 -

I guess the answer to your question lies in the similarities between different cultures across the globe. A need to forge connections with other human beings, the love between a man and a woman (or whatever you're into :tongue:), the desire to express oneself and ones inner uniqueness to the external world...

The ways in which we fulfill these Universal truths only vary from culture to culture, but the fundamentals remain the same. Basic human needs; animal satisfaction at the core.

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Re: societal imprinting [Re: Cameron]
    #8510838 -

hey man.

Its good to hear from you on this matter...its extremly important for individuals like us to search for the truth, behind the veil of our limited emotions, which are forged(i like that word) unintentionally, by the beliefs which are inherant in our world....

Logic itself and emotion are identical. When you feel something, it begins in a place deep within the mind, where cultural beliefs, we were taught early on, get their roots.

A cultural belief, and any belief, is something that at some point, became self evident about reality....for example, a person one day thought it was self-evident (probally because of events which he synchronized in his mind, as being interconnected and causal)that the naked body is somehow dirty, nasty and animalistic.

It could have happen in this way for example, a man has sex with someone, then notices that he got a disease, something painful, which he never had while having sex with the usual person and he may have logically said "If sex does this to me, bodies are nasty, dirty and animalistic...maiirage could have happen the same way...

These myths, are starting points to our logic and it makes things like public nudity feel embarrasing and undesirable and even frightening.

For example, if a culture believes that (1+1=2) when confronted with a situation where they are asked to answere the question; what does (1+1) and (2+2) = they will answere 6, however, if a culture had as their myth that (1+1) = 3, they would logically answere 7.

Factor in nudity as being bad, nasty, into the equation of being around a BIG group of people and you get (bad, embarassing, shameful).

Emotions are no different, and our actions reflect them...


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The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution.

And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change.

Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems.

Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....

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Re: societal imprinting [Re: JoseLibrado]
    #8510938 -

I guess the question is how far you can take the term "everything is relative". For example, is culture just a way of making sense of sensory information or can your actual perception vary dependent on where/when/how you grew up?


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Re: societal imprinting [Re: whatsgrimace]
    #8511042 -

There is an very wide range of differences among human beings, but there is also an equally large amount of similarities among us. People from other cultures might not find nudity embarrassing, but they certainly can experience the feeling of being embarrassed. It is what they find embarrassing that constitutes the major difference.

If you are seriously interested in this subject, I would suggest reading The Blank Slate by Steven Pinker. The book directly addresses this issue.

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Re: societal imprinting [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8511380 -

It sounds like an interesting book. I'll be sure to pick it up.


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Re: societal imprinting [Re: whatsgrimace]
    #8512176 -

whatsgrimace said:
There is no question that certain things about ourselves are products of the culture in which we're born into and brought up in, such as a feeling of embarrassment in being nude in public, etcetera. However, where should the line be drawn as to what is due to conditioning and what is actually, transcendently "true"? Maybe the question isn't clear. I don't know. I'm just interested in hearing your thoughts on this matter.


None of it is transcendentally true. Nothing, except the instincts, isn't a product of learning and the application of your will.

A groomed mind will see a connected social picture, a kind of 'world' where conscious minds share a common field and know this to an extent. A stilled mind will just see  individuals, connected far more fundamentally, clearly the products of their own universe.

That is to say, the whole social notion, of there being a social field, is a creation of thought.


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Wherever the hero may wander, whatever he may do, he is ever in the presence of his own essence — for he has the perfected eye to see. There is no separateness. Thus, just as the way of social participation may lead in the end to a realization of the All in the individual, so that of exile brings the hero to the Self in all.

joseph campbell


For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

jesus

Edited by burgatory (06/11/08 05:27 PM)

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Re: societal imprinting [Re: burgatory]
    #8512372 -

Logic itself and emotion are identical. When you feel something, it begins in a place deep within the mind, where cultural beliefs, we were taught early on, get their roots.

I'd have to disagree with you..i see emotion as a raw sensation to a stimulus, that through one's environment a certain concept, i.e. a word to categorize/package that sensation, arises. On the other hand, logic takes an epistemological stab at understanding the "objective world."

For example, if a culture believes that (1+1=2) when confronted with a situation where they are asked to answere the question; what does (1+1) and (2+2) = they will answere 6, however, if a culture had as their myth that (1+1) = 3, they would logically answere 7.


Um, since when was mathematics considered a myth?? Sure it is contrived from the human mind, as is language, but it took off on its own and now we struggle to comprehend what the numbers have to say (sorry for the personification). I guess I'm a math nerd...

With regards to the original question, I think it's impossible to ever discover a transcendental truth, because of the limits imposed on consciousness. I recommend Erwin Schrodinger's short book, "Mind and Matter."


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"If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite."~William Blake


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Re: societal imprinting [Re: cellardoor]
    #8512406 -

emotion is memory response with body feelings to a stimulus, sensation or group of sensations (or even another memory).

it is never a raw sensation at all.
it is always related to recall.
it may seem raw, because of the welling up of memories of related feelings,
but that is more about the strength of memory, and the impressions made by the original experiences.

I would have to agree that emotion has more in common with logic than is commonly accepted:
logic also is memory recall and sequence replay -
it is orchestrated with a cultured tone, & extra effort may be necessary
to hide the body feelings that come with logical displays, but it is the same mechanism -
playback from memory of suitable or associated routines.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: societal imprinting [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8512489 -

good point, i guess i didn't cover all the bases...

by "raw sensation" I envisage a photon (let's say at 488 nm = "blue") striking a rod/cone in the retina of the eye, which is subsequently transmitted via the optical nerve and on to the occipital lobe to be processeed. Then memory comes into play, and the illusion of "blue" is perceived.

playback from memory of suitable or associated routines.

but what about the act of learning? I mean in relation to logic, and emotion for that matter. New information being input, synaptic connections created and whatnot, pulls on strings of memory but is a complete divergence from "suitable or associated routines." I can see emotion as being more mechanistic but logic is active cogitation, maybe?


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"If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite."~William Blake


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Re: societal imprinting [Re: cellardoor]
    #8513069 -

The math was just a way to show what i believe logic is.

I only tied it to myth by showing that all thought and emotion follows logic.

I have found that when you focus on a new myth, one that is not like the ones you have been given, through social imprinting, your emotional reaction to stimulus changes...ie. A person smiles  in your direction, you feel good about yourself..because you were taught that who you are reflects how people react towards you. When you believe that who you are, is the same as everyone else and focus on it, the smile becomes indifferent to feelings about yourself, but rather feelings about how their life relates to yours.

It takes plenty of faith to see through old beliefs...with enough repetition it becomes more available and its extremly difficult in the first few years it seems...im not sure about the rest...maybe it is always difficult to discard our emotions and detach from them as a source of truth.

Either way, its fun - customized existence.:heart:


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The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution.

And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change.

Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems.

Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....

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Re: societal imprinting [Re: JoseLibrado]
    #8513142 -

I don't believe that anything is inherent other than by definition. For example, the sentence "All bachelors are unmarried".

Subsequently, there is no truth to look for. Create your own morality, values, etc, and live, think, and act for yourself.

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Re: societal imprinting [Re: Boots]
    #8513290 -

moral "right" and "wrong" seems to be nothing more than a means of social control. the behavior is just the behavior; murder is murder, but it is not "right" or "wrong". the polar qualifiers are just due to one behavior--not murdering--being positively sanctioned while the other--murder--is met with disapproval. deep down i feel that murder is indeed "wrong", but this is most likely just due to repeated teachings that it is.


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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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