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Bush tax cuts and the USD
    #8354091 -

from:
http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/2008/04/lets_think_hard.html

Quote:
April 27, 2008
Let's Think Long and Hard about Extending Those Bush Tax Cuts

There was a time one could plausibly argue that importing lots of goods and services, and borrowing a lot from abroad (financing the budget deficits that we've incurred since 2001) was a great idea. But at the time, about two and a half years ago, I made the following warning in a Council of Foreign Relations report [pdf]:

The United States faces a wide variety of possible outcomes, with the most dire having a significant likelihood. One real possibility entails the satiation of global investors’ appetite for U.S. Treasury securities, combined with an endless vista of government budget deficits. After several years of large losses on dollar assets due to depreciation, they then demand a substantial premium for holding dollar-denominated assets; either the dollar must weaken so as to make Treasury securities cheap, or yields must rise relative to those on other assets.

Here's what the dollar has done over the past ten years.

(go to the blog for images and links - phi)
Figure 1: Log Real Value of the US Dollar, normalized to 0 at peak in 2002M02. NBER-defined recessions shaded gray. Source: Federal Reserve Board, NBER, and author's calculations.

Now, after contemplating that time series, consider this item from Bloomberg:

Dollar Slide Drives U.S. Budget as Japanese Desert Treasuries

By Wes Goodman

April 28 (Bloomberg) -- Add another ailment to the U.S. misery index of soaring gasoline and wheat costs and falling home values: a federal deficit that is burgeoning as foreign investors led by the Japanese recoil from the slumping dollar.

The Japanese, who own $586.6 billion, or 12 percent of U.S. government debt, had their worst quarter in Treasuries this decade, losing 7 percent in the first three months of the year as the dollar fell to the lowest since 1995 versus the yen, Merrill Lynch & Co. indexes show. Dai-ichi Mutual Life Insurance Co., Meiji Yasuda Life Insurance Co. and Sumitomo Life Insurance Co., three of the nation's four-biggest insurers, would rather accept the world's lowest bond yields in Japan than buy U.S. debt.

``It's too early to say the dollar will stop falling,'' said Masataka Horii, head of the investment team in Tokyo for the $53.1 billion Kokusai Global Sovereign Open, Asia's biggest bond fund. ``The U.S. economy will be slow for a while.''

Japan owns more Treasuries than any other nation. After raising their holdings by $9.2 billion to $620.6 billion between March and July 2007, Japanese investors trimmed that stake by $34 billion through February, the Treasury said April 15.

America relies on foreign investors, who own more than half the U.S. government debt outstanding, to finance a deficit that New York-based Goldman Sachs Group Inc. predicts will expand to a record $500 billion for the year ending Sept. 30, after a $163 billion gap last year. Without their support, long-term interest rates would be 0.9 percentage point higher, a 2006 Federal Reserve study found.

Diminishing Returns

The yield on the benchmark 3 1/2 percent Treasury due February 2018 rose 16 basis points last week to 3.87 percent, according to bond broker BGCantor Market Data. The yield is up from 3.28 percent on March 17, the lowest since June 2003. The note's price declined 1 9/32, or $12.81 per $1,000 face amount, to $97.

Ten-year Treasury yields fell to within 2.03 percentage points of similar-maturity Japanese government bonds on March 17, the narrowest margin in more than a decade. Japan's 1.65 percent 10-year yield is the lowest of 31 bond markets tracked by Bloomberg and compares with 4.18 percent for German bunds.

A survey of Japanese funds investing overseas found 58 percent favor euro-denominated bonds, up from 20 percent a year ago, Barclays Capital Japan Ltd., a unit of the world's fifth- biggest currency trader, said in an April 24 report. Kokusai cut its U.S. fixed income holdings to a record-low 20 percent in March, from 32 percent two years ago.

``European debt is more attractive than Treasuries,'' said Nobuto Yamazaki, executive fund manager at Diam Asset Management in Tokyo, which runs an $8.55 billion bond fund that is Japan's third-biggest. The euro, which gained 14.5 percent in the past year against the dollar, ``will continue to be strong,'' he said.

Of course, this is not the only hazard to the dollar's value. Interest rate differentials, accelerating inflation in the US vis a vis other countries, the possibility of dollar depegging are also important [1], [2], [3]. Which one will prove the most important is hard to say, which is why Justin Fox quotes me as "confused" about the likely path of the dollar. Downward, sure; but how far, and how long, are the questions that remain. But my guess is dumping a lot more US Government debt on the market over the next few years by making the Bush structural budget deficit permanent is not the way to stem the dollar's slide.



Nobody likes paying taxes, but we can't afford the luxury of running a huge deficit. The "starve the beast" justification has borne no fruit: instead of reducing the size of government, the public debt will devalue the dollar and ultimately undermine the economy.

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Re: Bush tax cuts and the USD [Re: phi1618]
    #8354180 -

I'm missing the point of this.

Are you saying Congress should raise taxes when the Bush tax cuts expire?



Phred


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Re: Bush tax cuts and the USD [Re: Phred]
    #8354225 -

Phred said:
I'm missing the point of this.

Are you saying Congress should raise taxes when the Bush tax cuts expire?



Phred



the tax cuts bush passed only benefit the richest people in the country. john mccain acknowledged this back when it was proposed (2001?)

roughly 60% of large corporations paid NO TAXES last year

the taxes have to come from somewhere. where do they come from you ask? thats right.. the middle class. the same people who this country is seemingly trying to bankrupt.

meanwhile, the elite in the country keep getting richer, and keep getting tax breaks.

investment banks are taking bold risks and getting bailed out with OUR TAX DOLLARS- but we will never see a penny of that money back, much less a return on our investment.

the bush tax cuts are valid for 2 more years. if mccain gets elected, he has vowed to make them permanent.

sounds like fun. :suicide:

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Re: Bush tax cuts and the USD [Re: danknugz81]
    #8354247 -

Quote:
the taxes have to come from somewhere. where do they come from you ask? thats right.. the middle class.


False. The top 20% or so richest pay an overwhelming majority of all taxes. About 75%, from the last I saw, of tax revenue comes from the richest 20% of people.

Im middle class, and I dont pay taxes. I have only paid federal taxes one year in 9 years of employment.

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Re: Bush tax cuts and the USD [Re: danknugz81]
    #8354551 -


Edited by Luddite (05/02/08 04:57 PM)

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Re: Bush tax cuts and the USD [Re: Phred]
    #8357047 -

Phred said:
I'm missing the point of this.

Are you saying Congress should raise taxes when the Bush tax cuts expire?



Phred



Yes, we should raise taxes when the Bush tax cuts expire.
There are plenty of reasons for this, one of which is that the massive amount of federal debt being sold is saturating the market, which is leading to the loss of reserve currency status for the USD.

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Re: Bush tax cuts and the USD [Re: Luddite]
    #8357066 -

Rich people pay the majority of taxes because they have the majority of the money.

It's not true that rich people necessarily pay a higher portion of their income as taxes, though only the super-rich really benefit. Hedge fund managers like George Soros (close to $3 billion income last year) and Jim Simmons (a paltry $1.4 billion) pay tax at a 15% marginal rate, vs. 28-35% for more ordinary people.
Of course, it also depends on how you treat entitlement programs. For example, the marginal income tax rate for someone who makes $100,000 in a year is 28% vs. 25% for someone who makes $50,000, but the total tax for social security and medicare drops from 15.4% to 2.9%, so the total federal tax rate drops from 40.4% to 30.9% (this is hidden from a worker somewhat since part of the tax burden is placed on the employer, but the net effect is the same since it's been this way for a while.)

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Re: Bush tax cuts and the USD [Re: DieCommie]
    #8357068 -

Quote:
Im middle class, and I dont pay taxes. I have only paid federal taxes one year in 9 years of employment.



How do you manage that?

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Re: Bush tax cuts and the USD [Re: Phred]
    #8357080 -

Here's some additional data suggesting a correlation between US federal deficit and the strength of the USD:
Yearly US budget deficit:


Check out the USD index data here:
http://futures.tradingcharts.com/hist_US.html
USD index is a standard futures contract traded on NYMEX that tracks the USD exchange rate against a basket of major currencies.

Basically, you can see that the deficit last hit a trough of -290 billion in 1991 while the USD hit a low of about 81 in 1992. The federal surplus hit +236 billion in 2000 and the USD peaked at 120 in 2001. Recently, the deficit hit -413 billion in 2004 and promises to be nominally the worst on record this year (see: http://www.treas.gov/press/releases/hp945.htm ), and the USD index is scrapping along 75.

Interesting aside, conservatives claim that the Bush admin. has benefited the economy, but the stock market has been basically flat in nominal terms over his term:
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=%5EGSPC&t=my&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=
which, of course, means that it has fallen by about 40% for most foreigners.

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Re: Bush tax cuts and the USD [Re: phi1618]
    #8357172 -

phi1618 writes:

Quote:
Yes, we should raise taxes when the Bush tax cuts expire.



Why do you believe reducing the revenue generated by taxes collected by the federal government will help matters? The less revenue the feds raise through collected taxes, the more borrowing (or inflation of fiat currency) they have to do to make up the shortfall, assuming no spending cuts




Phred


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Re: Bush tax cuts and the USD [Re: Phred]
    #8357192 -

Of course, I believe that increasing tax rates will result in higher federal revenue than would be obtained with the current tax rates.
While you're free to believe that revenues will decrease with increased taxes, your way of saying it is pretty rude.

Edit: nice stealth edit

Edited by phi1618 (05/03/08 10:34 AM)

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Re: Bush tax cuts and the USD [Re: Phred]
    #8357301 -

You know, wanting something to be true doesn't make it so. Many politicians spout this nonsense about tax cuts always producing increases in revenue, but not many economists believe it.
Taxes were cut in 2001 and 2003. Tax revenues declined sharply from 2001 to 2003, and then increased sharply as the economy recovered from recession and corporate profits improved. In fact, not only did the GDP recover pretty sharply from 2003 on but taxes increased as a portion of the GDP since corporate profits increased as a portion of GDP. However, as noted in the document from the Treasury I linked above, tax revenues are projected to decline or flatten this year.

Look, even economists working for Republicans reject the idea that these specific tax cuts increased federal revenues beyond what they would have been otherwise:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/30/AR2007113002190.html
Quote:
"I certainly would not claim that tax cuts pay for themselves," Edward P. Lazear, chairman of the president's Council of Economic Advisers, testified last year. He's not alone. In the 2003 Economic Report of the President, the council concluded that "although the economy grows in response to tax reductions (because of the higher consumption in the short run and improved incentives in the long run) it is unlikely to grow so much that lost revenue is completely recovered by the higher level of economic activity."



Of course, whether tax revenues grow or shrink in response to a tax increase or decrease is a case-by-case question - some tax cuts could lead to increased revenue. However, I don't think we're anywhere near a gray area here - repealing the Bush tax cuts will almost certainly lead to increased revenues vs. what would be collected if they're extended.

Edited by phi1618 (05/03/08 11:16 AM)

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Re: Bush tax cuts and the USD [Re: phi1618]
    #8357322 -

Quote:
Rich people pay the majority of taxes because they have the majority of the money.



 
Their tax burden is higher proportionally than their share of the nation's wealth.


Quote:
Quote:
Im middle class, and I dont pay taxes. I have only paid federal taxes one year in 9 years of employment.



How do you manage that?



The federal government simply doesnt charge me any.  :shrug:  I astonished every year it happens.  The tax code is extremely progressive.




As far as tax cuts go, I am for them philosophically.  But with such huge debt, it may not be the best time to have them - I dont know.  I do know however, that the debt should be tackled twos way, taxes as you mentioned and cuts in spending.  The number one holder of US debt is promises made to old people who didnt save a dime and spent on luxuries their whole life.  Need to stop that BS right away.

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Re: Bush tax cuts and the USD [Re: DieCommie]
    #8357355 -

Sounds like you live in a cheap area and are good with money - :thumbup:

Quote:
Their tax burden is higher proportionally than their share of the nation's wealth.



As I noted above, thanks to various tax loopholes for the super-rich (allowing hedge fund managers to pay capital gains on their salaries is only the most glaring) and thanks to the way taxes are levied on social security/medicare, taxes become regressive right around upper-middle class (100k+). The complexity of the tax system also helps those who make enough for it to be worthwhile hiring tax attorneys and accountants to help.

Quote:
s far as tax cuts go, I am for them philosophically. But with such huge debt, it may not be the best time to have them - I dont know. I do know however, that the debt should be tackled twos way, taxes as you mentioned and cuts in spending.



I agree with this.
Social security/medicare is a big issue, and I won't really respond to it here.

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Re: Bush tax cuts and the USD [Re: phi1618]
    #8357890 -

phi1618 said:
Rich people pay the majority of taxes because they have the majority of the money.

It's not true that rich people necessarily pay a higher portion of their income as taxes, though only the super-rich really benefit. Hedge fund managers like George Soros (close to $3 billion income last year) and Jim Simmons (a paltry $1.4 billion) pay tax at a 15% marginal rate, vs. 28-35% for more ordinary people.



It's called capital gains and is treated differently from regular income because it comes from investments, many of which are in corporations which are already taxed. As well, I might point out that 15% of $3B is a disgusting amount of taxes to pay. I will agree that hedge fund managers should pay regular rates on the fees they earn, THAT is not investment income.

Quote:
Of course, it also depends on how you treat entitlement programs. For example, the marginal income tax rate for someone who makes $100,000 in a year is 28% vs. 25% for someone who makes $50,000, but the total tax for social security and medicare drops from 15.4% to 2.9%, so the total federal tax rate drops from 40.4% to 30.9%



Nonsense:

Quote:
Tax rates and the social security wage base limit. Social security and Medicare taxes have different rates and only the social security tax has a wage base limit. The wage base limit is the maximum wage that is subject to the tax for the year. Determine the amount of withholding for social security and Medicare taxes by multiplying each payment by the employee tax rate. There are no withholding allowances for social security and Medicare taxes.

The employee tax rate for social security is 6.2% (amount withheld). The employer tax rate for social security is also 6.2% (12.4% total). The 2007 wage base limit was $97,500. For 2008, the wage base limit is $102,000.

The employee tax rate for Medicare is 1.45% (amount withheld). The employer tax rate for Medicare tax is also 1.45% (2.9% total). There is no wage base limit for Medicare tax; all covered wages are subject to Medicare tax.




http://www.irs.gov/publications/p15/ar02.html#d0e2130

For somebody making $100,000 in 2007 only $2,500 would be exempt from Soc sec for a whopping total savings (?) of $310. This will be zero for 2008 when the limit goes up. Further, no matter how much you paid into soc sec your monthly benefits are capped. Someone who paid the max his whole life has been well and truly fucked.

Quote:
(this is hidden from a worker somewhat since part of the tax burden is placed on the employer, but the net effect is the same since it's been this way for a while.)



Self employed people have been aware of this horror. Making employers pay half is just a device to fool the vast majority of the electorate.

For a more accurate description of just how badly high income earners get fucked by the losers see thishttp://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/01/blog-post_26.html

Quote:
1. The share of total federal income taxes paid by the top 1% of tax filers increased to 39.38% in 2005 (most recent year available), while the tax share of the top 5% climbed to 59.67%. The income tax share of the top half rose to 96.93%, according to recent Internal Revenue Service (IRS) data. The tax shares are the highest on record for these groups in comparable IRS data going back to 1986.

2. The share of adjusted gross income generated by the top 1% increased to 21.20% in 2005, relative to a level of 20.81% reached during the height of the stock market bubble in 2000 (when the income tax share of the top 1% was 37.42%). Although the income share of the top 1% is similar in 2000 and 2005, the income tax share was about two percentage points higher in 2005.




The top 1% generates 20% of the income but pays 40% of the taxes. The top 5% pays 60% and the top half essentially pays everything. 50% of the population is utterly parasitic in terms of taxation. And now those losers want me to buy their healthcare?


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Re: Bush tax cuts and the USD [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8358219 -

Quote:
Quote:

Of course, it also depends on how you treat entitlement programs. For example, the marginal income tax rate for someone who makes $100,000 in a year is 28% vs. 25% for someone who makes $50,000, but the total tax for social security and medicare drops from 15.4% to 2.9%, so the total federal tax rate drops from 40.4% to 30.9%


Nonsense:

Quote:
Tax rates and the social security wage base limit. Social security and Medicare taxes have different rates and only the social security tax has a wage base limit. The wage base limit is the maximum wage that is subject to the tax for the year. Determine the amount of withholding for social security and Medicare taxes by multiplying each payment by the employee tax rate. There are no withholding allowances for social security and Medicare taxes.

The employee tax rate for social security is 6.2% (amount withheld). The employer tax rate for social security is also 6.2% (12.4% total). The 2007 wage base limit was $97,500. For 2008, the wage base limit is $102,000.

The employee tax rate for Medicare is 1.45% (amount withheld). The employer tax rate for Medicare tax is also 1.45% (2.9% total). There is no wage base limit for Medicare tax; all covered wages are subject to Medicare tax.



http://www.irs.gov/publications/p15/ar02.html#d0e2130

For somebody making $100,000 in 2007 only $2,500 would be exempt from Soc sec for a whopping total savings (?) of $310. This will be zero for 2008 when the limit goes up. Further, no matter how much you paid into soc sec your monthly benefits are capped. Someone who paid the max his whole life has been well and truly fucked.



I think we agree here - I don't see how what you posted contradicts what I posted in any way.


As for the rest:
Your sited post only refers to personal income tax, which is progressive. It ignores social security/medicare (in spite of what they tell you, it's a tax, not an investment), the lower rate on capital gains and qualified dividends, various deductions from gross business income, etc.

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Re: Bush tax cuts and the USD [Re: phi1618]
    #8358282 -

everybody always bitches about tax cuts.

they say tax this tax that. and that tax breaks only help the rich.

i say you're fucking wrong! when was the last time you looked at your fucking paycheck? notice the little deductions from your net? i had to pay over 1000 in taxes over 2007 through withholdings on roughly 13000. last time i checked, that tax break WOULD FUCKING HELP ME.

i don't like john mccain, but taxing is not the way to solve our problems. this is exactly what's wrong with our fucking country. everhbody says "what should we tax?" instead of "should we even have a tax?"

THE CONSTITUTION DOES NOT ALLOW FOR INDIVIDUAL INCOME TAX. do your homework. the government is illegally robbing us of our hard earned dollars to finance shit the government should not even be participating in.

if you want govt programs and high taxes, move to fucking canada or europe. america is supposed to work on the ideas of free market exchange. that includes medicine and other public services. if there is no incentive for an individual to make a profit, he will not enter the private sector. if there were no private sector, we'd all be government employees. and we all know how effective things done by the government turn out to be.

so get off the tax horse.

ridding ourselves of the income tax would take our federal revenues back to the same levels they were at 10 years ago.

you wanna know what the fucking income tax pays for? fucking interest on the god damn national debt. not for roads. not for welfare programs. fucking interest that we owe god forsaken china.

if you wanna talk about a real tax, talk about what the fed is doing with interest rates. that is robbing the dollar of value. that is a tax on everybody.

you wanna talk change, get rid of the fucking fed, the fucking irs, and most of the president's cabinet positions.

that's how to save money and save this country. oh yeah by stopping our trillion dollar war too.

but until these liberal pussies stop bitching about this thing and that and start looking at the real fucking issues, nothing will get done. and that includes neoconservative pussfucks too.

there's a growing movement in this country that is aware of what has happened, what is happening, and what will happen if we do not DRASTICALLY change the size of our federal government.


--------------------
:gc:
Madtowntripper said:Or just give her a cloroform soaked rag and tell her it's ether!

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Re: Bush tax cuts and the USD [Re: MistaUNGA]
    #8358328 -

Quote:
THE CONSTITUTION DOES NOT ALLOW FOR INDIVIDUAL INCOME TAX. do your homework. the government is illegally robbing us of our hard earned dollars to finance shit the government should not even be participating in.





The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.


^^

There ya go


I think we should hold people's feet to the fire. There should be an amendment that we cannot carry a deficiet of more than x percent unless exceptional circumstances, so defined, are had.

We shouldn't cut taxes untill we are paying for what we've got.

I don't know the limit of this though, it would be silly to allow our economy to tank if spending raises along w/ taxes.

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Re: Bush tax cuts and the USD [Re: johnm214]
    #8358345 -

I think it's fine to carry a deficit for a limited period of time, and at times it's been a good financial decision to issue enough debt to satisfy international demand for safe USD denominated assets. However, carrying a significant structural deficit as we have for the last 8 years is not a good idea for a variety of reasons, including that I outlined in the first post.

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Re: Bush tax cuts and the USD [Re: phi1618]
    #8358371 -

Until the passage of the 16th amendment, the Supreme Court had consistently held that Congress had no power to impose an income tax.

Income taxes are responsible for the transformation of the federal government from one of limited powers into a vast leviathan whose tentacles reach into almost every aspect of American life. Thanks to the income tax, today the federal government routinely invades our privacy, and penalizes our every endeavor.

The Founding Fathers realized that “the power to tax is the power to destroy,” which is why they did not give the federal government the power to impose an income tax. Needless to say, the Founders would be horrified to know that Americans today give more than a third of their income to the federal government.

Income taxes not only diminish liberty, they retard economic growth by discouraging work and production. Our current tax system also forces Americans to waste valuable time and money on complacence with an ever-more complex tax code.

Very few people realize that China is one of the biggest beneficiaries of American taxpayer subsidies. Thanks to the largesse of Congress and the President, China enjoys subsidized trade and the flow of US tax dollars into Beijing's coffers.

Whenever tax cuts are discussed in Washington, the media and most politicians use the phrase, “cost to government.” “How much will this tax cut cost the government?” we are asked, as though some crime is being contemplated when we consider reducing taxes. The American people have every right to fund the federal government at whatever level they deem acceptable, and if they choose-- through their elected representatives-- to reduce that funding level, they are not somehow injuring the government. If Congresses passes a new law that results in you paying $1000 less in taxes next year, have you taken something from the government that rightfully belongs to it? Or has the government simply taken less from you?


--------------------
:gc:
Madtowntripper said:Or just give her a cloroform soaked rag and tell her it's ether!

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