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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms
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Cloning vs. buying
    #7749566 -

I was wondering what you all thought of cloning from store bought oysters, shiitake,... verses buying from a vendor. I have cloned oysters with great success but maby I just got lucky once This would be for personal use not commercial production. Also what success have you had cloning shiitake.


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I need tropical cultures, ABM, V.v....!!!!

Well things don't always look as they are and things can be misread and mistaken for what they realy are so don't read too much into what I say since I might be mistaken myself. And remember I rarely ever give a definate answer.

Edited by trout (12/12/07 02:22 PM)

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Re: Cloning vs. buying [Re: trout]
    #7749701 -

Well the traditional line of thought basically says that the store bought mushrooms are going to be many cell divisions away from the original mother culture. That culture represents what should be the most stable genetics and vigorous growth when compared to the same culture after it has gone through many expansions (cell divisions). So if you wanted really optimal yields, quality, texture, etc, then in theory you'd be best buying a culture.

Now in real life things aren't always that way, and there are always exceptions to the rule, but that's usually how it goes.

For small scale, personal use, etc. then there is really no reason not to go out and just try to clone some grocery store mushrooms. That's a good learning experience. Also I was told by John Holiday of Aloha Medicinals that strains that have been "tired out" or have lost their vigor can be exercised back into good health. He suggests giving the culture something to digest that it usually does not consume. He suggested using a cricket agar made from putting crickets he bought at the pet store into a blender. His reasoning is that when a culture gets used to a media/substrate it becomes lazy because it is used to creating the same enzymatic pathways for the breakdown of organic matter into nutrition. By giving it something altogether different and new, you are challenging it, helping it exercise those hyphae!

He says it grows very slowly on the cricket agar (or whatever you've used), but when you transfer it back onto a more traditional agar media, you really see the growth take off. So that represents one way you could go and get yourself a nice commercial culture...

Alternatively, there are many places to obtain cultures, and many of the vendors here sell decent-to-excellent quality edible cultures for reasonable prices. Some of them for under $20, so when you factor in your time and effort, that is definitely a good value. Although there is something to be said for working hard on a strain, whether it be cultured or through spore-work.

Light and Love,
JD


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Jeremy Davis
Educational Concerns for Hunger Organization, Inc.
Check out the ECHO mushroom blog page to see our lab, growing facility, and more-www.echotech.org/greta

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Re: Cloning vs. buying [Re: Jeremy_Davis]
    #7749753 -

i thought that commercial strains lost vigor due to senescence....the ability of an organism to divide cells...and was much more a genetic issue than a strain becoming nutrient specific.
I also remember reading in ggmm somewhere that A. bisporus are usually grown out in anticipation of some senesensce to keep the strain proprietary.
:macdre:


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:greys:

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Re: Cloning vs. buying [Re: greys]
    #7749780 -

Senescence would be a concern but I'm not looking for mass production. Also if the company waited until considerable reduction in vigor to fruit the strain then they would also be loosing valuable yield. I think the whole issue of senescence is more of a ploy to keep people from stealing a proprietary strain from a grower, yes it does happen but when, and as stated above what does culture media have to do with it not just old genetics. Were talking about organisms that are capable of growing into the largest living things on earth, where is the senescence there.
Trout


--------------------
I need tropical cultures, ABM, V.v....!!!!

Well things don't always look as they are and things can be misread and mistaken for what they realy are so don't read too much into what I say since I might be mistaken myself. And remember I rarely ever give a definate answer.

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Re: Cloning vs. buying [Re: trout]
    #7749797 -

So who has cloned store bought shiitake. Oysters are easy as well ports but the shiitake have stumped me in the past any tips? Also I would love some hericum but can't find any locally so I guess I will have to order them do you have any suggestions for tissue cultures.


--------------------
I need tropical cultures, ABM, V.v....!!!!

Well things don't always look as they are and things can be misread and mistaken for what they realy are so don't read too much into what I say since I might be mistaken myself. And remember I rarely ever give a definate answer.

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Re: Cloning vs. buying [Re: trout]
    #7750039 -

Sorry to be posting so many times to my own post but I want to clarify that my cloning has been stem base transfer to cardboard as seen in Mycelium Running. I have not worked with agar but have grown my own spawn from fruit bodies as well as spores and the cardboard clones of oysters have worked for me but not with shiitake.


--------------------
I need tropical cultures, ABM, V.v....!!!!

Well things don't always look as they are and things can be misread and mistaken for what they realy are so don't read too much into what I say since I might be mistaken myself. And remember I rarely ever give a definate answer.

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Re: Cloning vs. buying [Re: trout]
    #7750177 -

blah blah blah.
Cloning a store bought oyster will be tough. They start rotting once they are picked. Check this thread http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/7748447/an/0/page/0

also either get your strain through sporeworks.com or fungiperfecti.com


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Stop experimenting half way through your first grow. Grow it to maturity, watch it, learn from it. Do this a few times then experiment with different ideas and figure out what works best for you.


My Legacy
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22140987#22140987

Teh=The
I need to proofread

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Re: Cloning vs. buying [Re: tahoe]
    #7750263 -

I have better luck cloning shiitake from the fleshy part of the cap. The stems are tough and woody and don't take off as well.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Re: Cloning vs. buying [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7752908 -

Thanks RR I will try that I have always tried the stem and it has never worked with Shiitake. And to Tahoe blah blah blah to you too I have cloned store bought oysters twice(I have only tried twice so 100% success rate) so it can be done. I have had more trouble with fresh picked wild oysters than store bought.
Trout


--------------------
I need tropical cultures, ABM, V.v....!!!!

Well things don't always look as they are and things can be misread and mistaken for what they realy are so don't read too much into what I say since I might be mistaken myself. And remember I rarely ever give a definate answer.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Cloning vs. buying [Re: trout]
    #7755019 -

i was not blah blah blahing you


--------------------
Stop experimenting half way through your first grow. Grow it to maturity, watch it, learn from it. Do this a few times then experiment with different ideas and figure out what works best for you.


My Legacy
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22140987#22140987

Teh=The
I need to proofread

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Re: Cloning vs. buying [Re: greys]
    #7757493 -

greysRDbest said:
i thought that commercial strains lost vigor due to senescence...


Which is the reason to go back to the wild for specimens more resistant to contamination and vigor.

You can clone from store bought with success but picking a good package is tricky.....at least here in the south east.

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Re: Cloning vs. buying [Re: em_bre_O]
    #7757641 -

Tahoe, sorry for misinterpreting your blahs:)
Trout


--------------------
I need tropical cultures, ABM, V.v....!!!!

Well things don't always look as they are and things can be misread and mistaken for what they realy are so don't read too much into what I say since I might be mistaken myself. And remember I rarely ever give a definate answer.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Cloning vs. buying [Re: trout]
    #7757680 -

The rewards of finding your own strain can be minute most of the time. Every researcher wonders why he still has a job; he spends his work day slogging through culture banks, multispore monokaryons, and wild strains, not one of them outperforms the other.

There is gold in those hills though. Until automated harvesting comes around, a mushroom strain that yields the same per square foot but weighs more per individual mushroom. That's a very valuable strain because pickers pick more per hour.

I did hear from a research for Sylvan, that he finds better performing strains in the wild as opposed to breeding monokaryons.

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Re: Cloning vs. buying [Re: YidakiMan]
    #7757815 -

Selecting the strain from the wild to clone is key. I have the best performing oyster strain I've ever seen. It produces large, meaty, heavy fruits, and produces them all over the substrate. The fruit that was cloned from the wild was found far from the nearest road or trail in an old growth section of a mountain forest river bed area. The same is true for my Hericium strain.

The problem with grocery store strains is they were most likely grown out over several cycles of grain to grain transfers, or from using liquid culture that was grown almost to senescence before being used to inoculate grains and then straw or other bulk substrate. In other words, the cell lines are old. After dozens of grocery store clones, I gave up because not one of them outperformed strains I've collected in the wild.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Re: Cloning vs. buying [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7757932 -

I believe you RR and I would love to be growing strains form the wild but I have had trouble finding wild samples or getting them to clone with my methods. I need to start working with agar so I can do a better job but that requires more free time and equipment than I have right now.
Trout


--------------------
I need tropical cultures, ABM, V.v....!!!!

Well things don't always look as they are and things can be misread and mistaken for what they realy are so don't read too much into what I say since I might be mistaken myself. And remember I rarely ever give a definate answer.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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Shop: MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Mushroom-Hut Liquid Cultures   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms
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