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Attachment to Ideas
    #7165135 -

Attachment to ideas is the greatest barrier to not accepting new ideas. I am finding that to invest myself more than minimally in any idea leads to conflict when it comes to the consideration of new ideas. I feel that new ideas can be viewed and tested without conflict as long as we do not make our current ideas too important. An idea is just and idea and not part of the physical body so one does not need to worry about losing part of the self because one drops an old outmoded idea. Adapting to change is easiest and most efficient when we are able to dynamically change our views according to the life situations we find ourselves in. It is not about being wrong or right, but about flowing with the winds of change to always seize that one cubic centimeter of chance when it pops up.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Attachment to Ideas [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7165146 -

Krishnamurti was brilliant.
According to him, all attachments, and
therefor all behavior, is done out of fear :smile:

I tend to agree with him.

But you are right, clinging to our ideas
for comfort of mind satisfies the ego and
gratifies the senses, further deluding us
and dividing us as people from the main
purpose of all ideas : Love and acceptance.

Much Love friend! John ~


--------------------
OM SHANTI ~

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Re: Attachment to Ideas [Re: Relayer]
    #7165152 -

Yeah, I like to blend Krishnamurti with Castaneda. Castamurti anyone?


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Attachment to Ideas [Re: Relayer]
    #7165224 -

Relayer said:
Krishnamurti was brilliant.
According to him, all attachments, and
therefor all behavior, is done out of fear :smile:

...


well
it should be obvious that one thing connects to another
our brain connects all of what is sensed (and thought) in one moment into a tableau mental-image of that slice in time
and it can recall it later:
any new impression that matches a piece (or texture) of that mental-image will serve to stimulate recall the rest of that tableau.

the more a pattern is established the more strongly it garners recollection from associated stimuli.

In this way things naturally become associated.

Attachment is a concept that tries to wrap association with moral or spiritual context.

many of our compulsions or compelling associations can conflict with what is suitable in a situation.

What we need to see is that the arising of the compelling habit is related naturally to environment and our perception of it. This awareness combined with some moral perspective provides enough delay that habit or compulsion does not completely rule your life.

I am not that happy with other explanations of attachment, as they presume something fundamentally morally corrupt with the basic system, and IMO, mind is not fundamentally corrupt.

attachment is natural, and it is not based upon fear.
fear is something else, largely a chemical disturbance (adrenaline) when stuff is working out badly, and the person needs to flush out distraction and begin some "defensive" process. If you are practicing some awareness of the natural mental processes as they are happenning this will not set in either.

so IMO
Krishnamurti was clever
but fudged his psychology
to fit his religion.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Attachment to Ideas [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7165243 -

Thoughts are discoveries, not creations. We merly change the sequence and pattern of thoughts, as we see fit, formulating a belief. When it is attached to the ego, it becomes an argument. Really in a philosophical argument, a person thinks they can win something an loose something because of this attachment. My first nature is to do this and it may be due to the ideas of the self that myself manifested as a nature, earlier on in my life.... where i believed that peoples normalized opinion means that it is always correct, no matter what i believed. Oh well, its here and its a challenge to overcome it! This is actually a fallacy that is harder to identify, because as most of our strongest beliefs, it happens on a suttle level. I believe it may be at the level of collective self-conciousness that deepak chopra speaks of.


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The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution.

And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change.

Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems.

Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....

Edited by JoseLibrado (07/12/07 10:51 AM)

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Re: Attachment to Ideas [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7165341 -

Redgreenvines, is this not the same
screen name you had on hipforums?
sorry just think I know who you are :smile:


--------------------
OM SHANTI ~

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Re: Attachment to Ideas [Re: Relayer]
    #7165503 -

if you know who I am
you must not tell anyone
myself included

I want to be in the dark on that


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Attachment to Ideas [Re: Relayer]
    #7165510 -

Fear in my discoery is the feeling and knowledge that one can be damaged, subtracted from. At core this is not true, assuming that you believe yourself as a being that is infinite.
Pride is the opposite, it is the belief that we can build ourselves higher than we are and i get the idea that this is where we attach anything to. Take the old cutlural saying of a son to a father..."Make Me Proud Son!" In this the father has attached this person to his ego and that which makes the ego exapand, while also unknowingly or knowingly attaching also to the part that makes it contract, shame.
Although i can't quite describe what pride and shame are to me, when i feel them, i can say that i have discovered that pride makes it so that i can accept myself, as importance - really i just see importance in the things i have prided myself from(this is showing me some understanding as to why i get hostile towards criticism and others in general).
In this logic, i can see why, that person believes attachment is caused by fear. If one is fearing the possibility of not feeling acceptance, one will become hostile or submissive towards that which causes the unacceptance or shame, to begin in our feelings. We can get frantic under this system of thought, trying to attach to pride, associate to pride, in a way to defend against having to associate to shame. An example of this would be the make up that some people wear. Its kind of like a sheild they put on themselves to try and mitigate the inevitable creeping of shame.
I think this is why so many people, including my parents say that life is unfair. I mean, im being taught that feeling accepted is found only within others, when trully it is only from within. Its kind of like im searching for a shovel and seeds to see beautiful flowers of thought alive, all the while already having that shovel and seeds within me.


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The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution.

And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change.

Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems.

Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....

Edited by JoseLibrado (07/12/07 11:01 AM)

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Re: Attachment to Ideas [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7165582 -

Quote:
redgreenvines said: attachment is natural, and it is not based upon fear.


I agree that attachment is natural. Human life isn't possible without attachment. The whole point of learning to let go of attachments is to make attachment and detachment into conscious acts, instead of just staying attached because of karmic history.

There is one situation however where fear feeds an attachment: when you have invested a lot in a particular idea, there is sometimes a fear that you will lose something by "throwing away" that investment, even if that happens because some competing idea proves it wrong. This is irrational behaviour of course, but fear is often irrational...

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Re: Attachment to Ideas [Re: Rhizoid]
    #7165997 -

Right


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Attachment to Ideas [Re: Icelander]
    #7166460 -

Regreeen. Explain why you think attachment cannot be an outcome of some fear.

I think attachment is at first assuming you can expect something to stay constant and attaching it to yourself, in an attempt to create a constant "I" or identity. Expectation is not truth, however, because truths nature is that of a relative one much like our nature is to be in relation to good and bad. Therefore, One can then either attach out of fear or love, it is at nature both, but in truth only love because fear of expecting that you will not be an 'identity' is irrational considering that we are inifite and simple are, will never be.


--------------------
The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution.

And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change.

Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems.

Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....

Edited by JoseLibrado (07/12/07 02:46 PM)

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Re: Attachment to Ideas [Re: JoseLibrado]
    #7167250 -

People grasp at the self-created construct of the "I" out of mainly ignorance, not only fear. Apprehensiveness (fear) is a hindrance, but it is only just one. There are many more hindrances, such as laziness, greed, restlness, etc.... They are all nested within ignorance; which is where fear also resides.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

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Re: Attachment to Ideas [Re: psyka]
    #7167260 -

Good .:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Attachment to Ideas [Re: Rhizoid]
    #7167280 -

I find that the more I practice it the easier conscious attachment and detachment are to achieve. There is a point I think where a true flow state comes from the fits and starts of attachment and detachment...the gaps get closer together...


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Attachment to Ideas [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7167336 -

Even velcro wears out. (Channeling RGV today)


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Re: Attachment to Ideas [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7167363 -

Hue, is the form of attachment you speak of, one where you attach the discovery of previously uncertain truths, to your idea of truth?
The attachment i talk about is the one where you attach ideas to your love, as a reason to love. Ie/ A philosopher having pride for for his ideas because they are agreed upon by many others.


--------------------
The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution.

And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change.

Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems.

Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....

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Re: Attachment to Ideas [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7167615 -

Great analogy!! My Velcro needs to be totally worn down to the stickiness of the back of a Post-It note. That may be just enough attachment to be useful.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Attachment to Ideas [Re: JoseLibrado]
    #7167681 -

I am just discussing the process by which you come to buy into your own ideas so much that you refuse to look at any others in the interests of being stable or safe. This seems to be a habit of The Shroomery collectively (just my opinion guys, and remember that I am no one). I used to be one of this habit's greatest proponents. I drank the Kool Aid of self importance until I got sick, so now I am looking at ideas that seemed to previously threaten me and I am finding an unsafe, but much more interesting world. The Universe wants everything to be unstable and ever changing. I decided to agree with it.

In any case this is my current view, but then again I am just a guy who likes to write about taking drugs on web forums, and most of what I say is probably not applicable.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

Edited by Huehuecoyotl (07/12/07 07:56 PM)

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Re: Attachment to Ideas [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7167710 -

Here is an essay that I am currently believing in (convince me otherwise if you want...I am open). It is by Jiddu Krishnamurti and it is about the idea I have been discussing. I posted this a long time ago, but here it is in some good context again.

Quote:
WHY do you identify yourself with another, with a group, with a country? Why do you call yourself a Christian, a Hindu, a Buddhist, or why do you belong to one of the innumerable sects? Religiously and politically one identifies oneself with this or with that group through tradition or habit, through impulse, prejudice, imitation and laziness. This identification puts an end to all creative understanding, and then one becomes a mere tool in the hands of the party boss, the priest or the favoured leader.
The other day someone said that he was a "Krishnamurti-ite," whereas so-and-so belonged to another group. As he was saying it, he was utterly unconscious of the implications of this identification. He was not by any means a foolish person; he was well read. cultured and all the rest of it. Nor was he sentimental or emotional over the matter; on the contrary, he was clear and definite.
Why had he become a "Krishnamurti-ite"? He had followed others, belonged to many wearisome groups and organizations, and at last found himself identified with this particular person. From what he said, it appeared that the journey was over. He had taken a stand and that was the end of the matter; he had chosen, and nothing could shake him. He would now comfortably settle down and follow eagerly all that had been said and was going to be said.
When we identify ourselves with another, is that an indication of love? Does identification imply experimentation? Does not identification put an end to love and to experiment? Identification, surely, is possession, the assertion of ownership; and ownership denies love, does it not? To own is to be secure; possession is defence, making oneself invulnerable. In identification there is resistance, whether gross or subtle; and is love a form of self-protective resistance? Is there love when there is defence?
Love is vulnerable, pliable, receptive; it is the highest form of sensitivity, and identification makes for insensitivity. Identification and love do not go together, for the one destroys the other. Identification is essentially a thought process by which the mind safeguards and expands itself; and in becoming something it must resist and defend, it must own and discard. In this process of becoming, the mind or the self grows tougher and more capable; but this is not love. Identification destroys freedom, and only in freedom can there be the highest form of sensitivity.
To experiment, need there be identification? Does not the very act of identification put an end to inquiry, to discovery? The happiness that truth brings cannot be if there is no experimentation in self-discovery. Identification puts an end to discovery; it is another form of laziness. Identification is vicarious experience, and hence utterly false.
To experience, all identification must cease. To experiment, there must be no fear. Fear prevents experience. It is fear that makes for identification - identification with another, with a group, with an ideology, and so on. Fear must resist, suppress; and in a state of self-defence, how can there be venturing on the uncharted sea? Truth or happiness cannot come without undertaking the journey into the ways of the self. You cannot travel far if you are anchored. Identification is a refuge. A refuge needs protection, and that which is protected is soon destroyed. Identification brings destruction upon itself, and hence the constant conflict between various identifications.
The more we struggle for or against identification, the greater is the resistance to understanding. If one is aware of the whole process of identification, outward as well as inner, if one sees that its outward expression projected by the inner demand, then there is a possibility of discovery and happiness. He who has identified himself can never know freedom, in which alone all truth comes into being.



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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Attachment to Ideas [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7167752 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
I am just discussing the process by which you come to buy into your own ideas so much that you refuse to look at any others in the interests of being stable or safe. This seems to be a habit of The Shroomery collectively (just my opinion guys, and remember that I am no one). I used to be one this habit's greatest proponents. I drank the Kool Aid of self importance until I got sick, so now I am looking at ideas that seemed to previously threaten me and I am finding an unsafe, but much more interesting world. The Universe wants everything to be unstable and ever changing. I decided to agree with it.


:thumbup:

Right on, I just wrote a long-ish post about this very thing today. Perhaps I should have looked here first! :grin:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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