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Offlinechemkid
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Registered: 06/21/02
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Identification of self
    #906122 - 09/25/02 02:18 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

A side-remark in one of Swami's posts was like a splinter in my head for the past few days and I want to explore it more. I recall this being a topic in one of my Philosophy classes but swept in under the mental rug. I wish to dust it off and have you guys guys help me dissect it.

If someone sees a picture of their hand they will say "that is a picture of my hand". If however, someone sees a picture of their face they will say "that is a picture of me"

At first pass it seemed very simple to answer (for me); but as I mentioned earlier, it stuck in my head like a splinter and I couldn't come up with anything other than very simplistic excuses why I would make such a distinction.

Is this a severe case of vanity and a trap set by my ego? What do you guys think?


P.S.  Swami....no more thought provoking posts. Splinters hurt :grin: 


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


Edited by chemkid (09/25/02 03:49 AM)


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OfflineLarrythescaryrexS
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Re: Identification of self [Re: chemkid]
    #906137 - 09/25/02 02:23 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

/me brain explodes.


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RIP Acidic_Sloth

Sunset_Mission said:
"larry the scary rex
verily scary when thoroughly vexed
invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex
mercifully massacring memories masterfully
relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully
mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs
invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs"
April 24th 2011


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Identification of self [Re: chemkid]
    #906228 - 09/25/02 02:50 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Is it merely a tendency to map our concept of "me" onto those parts of us that we cannot see without the aid of a mirror?

Maybe it has to do with the location of our major sensory organs.

Maybe it's because the face is the primary means of identification (among humans- dogs use scent, I think).

Maybe it's just an arbitrary method of identification that works.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinechemkid
Be excellent toeach other

Registered: 06/21/02
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Re: Identification of self [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #906234 - 09/25/02 02:53 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

This is why philosophy is so bitter/sweet. I love the debate and learning but being confronted with your own shortcomings and then being asked to probe and define them is an arduous task indeed.

One of the simplistic ideas I had was: You see your face pretty much everyday and this has many distinct features that we visually rely on to identify ourselves and others. If you see a picture of your hand, it could be any old hand.

But then, why don't we "know" our hands like our faces. Hands are as much a part of you as any other thing like a face. I guess I am letting a very silly and simple question burrow into my brain but it is driving me nuts.


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


Edited by chemkid (09/25/02 02:55 AM)


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Identification of self [Re: chemkid]
    #906244 - 09/25/02 02:59 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Faces have more easily recognizable features than hands...

those features the hand lacks:
eye color... eyebrow color... eyelash length... mouth... nose...
These are all easily recognizable structures (shapes). I'd be willing to bet there is much more noticeable (leave the micrometer out of this) variation in the face than in the hand.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinechemkid
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Registered: 06/21/02
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Re: Identification of self [Re: Sclorch]
    #906247 - 09/25/02 03:00 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Funny thing sclorch........these were pretty much the same things I came up with but found them to be too simplistic. Got any other ideas or am I beating the proverbial horse?


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Identification of self [Re: chemkid]
    #906268 - 09/25/02 03:06 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Maybe you're beating it a bit...

The truth is that I find these discussions regarding the self to be EXTREMELY interesting. What if we were all identical (on the outside- fingerprints and retinas included- our DNA would still be different)... how would we differentiate eachother? What social system would we be inclined to adopt?

Would our outer garments be our identifying system?
If so, would the GAP exist? Would mass production exist?
Would a life be deemed more or less valuable?
How would this affect religion?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Invisiblematts
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Registered: 01/28/02
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Re: Identification of self [Re: Sclorch]
    #906389 - 09/25/02 04:05 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Post deleted by Administrator


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Offlinehtownkid28
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Registered: 07/02/02
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Re: Identification of self [Re: chemkid]
    #906403 - 09/25/02 04:14 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

this really is an interesting question. it really is true that your face is the identification card for the rest of the world to recognize you by. when you go to interview with someone, you always make sure that you maintain eye contact the whole time. you don't stare at the interviewer's hand or arm or leg. even if your co-workers don't know your name they can certainly spot you in a line-up. if you come to work with a mask on they won't recognize you. wear gloves and they still know who you are. it is interesting to me when i stop and think about these facts. if we were a society of blind people or, like someone else mentioned ealier, a race of people whose faces were featureless, how would this dynamic change? would some other body part become more important? would the physical contact from a hand shake become our means of distinguishing ourselves from others? i hope i didn't miss the point of this discussion. i'm not even really sure i added anything valuable to the discussion but i just thought i'd throw my 2 cents in! :confused:


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"



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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Identification of self [Re: chemkid]
    #906424 - 09/25/02 04:30 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

This is my understanding of it:

Most humans experience a compartmentalization of consciousness. Being the conscious, subconscious, and unconscious mind. We've trained ourselves to focus on the head when talking with our friends.. our egos (that is..our heads) talk to each other. Imagine the body of a woman that is speaking to you.. assume that the head is her conscious mind. Neck to hips represents the subconscious, and from hips to feet is the unconscious. When someone is speaking, most focus on the head.. as that seems to be ruling the interaction.
So most people associate a face with the head...or ego, as themselves.. or the conscious waking personality they have created for themselves...
If we saw the body as a holistic unit... the whole body.. then this compartmentalization would not occur.. It is not just a talking head..it is a whole body.
Or something


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: Identification of self [Re: chemkid]
    #906460 - 09/25/02 04:49 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I'm going to guess that it's because there's something hardwired in our heads to make it so that the human face is what we use to identify a person. If you see someone from the back or their face is obscured it can be nearly impossible to tell who it is. I've seen Jay Leno have great fun with this by taking a photo of Osama bin Laden (or somebody else like that) and put a carboard mask over the photo so all you can see is the eyes then ask people on the street if they would trust (or whatever) the person.

It is a more interesting question that it appears on the surface.


--------------------
Happy mushrooming!


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Identification of self [Re: Shroomism]
    #906472 - 09/25/02 04:57 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

The face is just part of it.

As schlorch noted, that is where the major sense organs are. In the west many of us feel that our essence (no matter what religious philosophy we ascribe to) is in our head. In many Eastern cultures, the center is perceived as being in the abdomen (the hara).

The eyes are a big part of this. There was a line from a movie or TV ad where a guy is checking out a woman's anatomy, and she commands something like, "Hello, I am up here!"

The "me" or "I" part is clearly perceived to be in the head or eyes. This is not just a figure of speech nor a matter of easily identifiable characteristics.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Identification of self [Re: Swami]
    #906477 - 09/25/02 04:59 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah exactly.. the body receives stimuli as well as the head..although sometimes not as consciously. The head wouldn't exist without the body.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
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Re: Identification of self [Re: Swami]
    #906520 - 09/25/02 05:30 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

The "me" or "I" part is clearly perceived to be in the head or eyes

Maybe the simplest explanation is that the brain is in the head, behind the face.


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Invisiblebuttonion
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Registered: 04/04/02
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Re: Identification of self [Re: chemkid]
    #906880 - 09/25/02 10:44 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Firstly, anyone seriously interested in this topic should pick up the book ?The Mind?s I,? a collection of philosophical essays on consciousness and philosophy of mind edited by Hofstadter and Dennet. It is surprisingly readable, not totally packed with esoteric philosophical jargon, but also something to take your time with. Even if you are a student of philosophy, it will give you a lot to think about.

Second, I think what has been said in the thread thus far points to the truly metaphysical nature of the self- it seems like ?the self? should be recognized with the same status as ?the soul?, an entity with no apparent correspondence to reality, although serving an apparently useful function. A fluffy, diaphanous idea that is really nothing more than an idea, a symbol that, because of the human ability to symbolically represent perceptions in the mind, has become the symbol for the organism, for ?us?, and the locus of control. It is also something that the organism projects onto other apparently similar organisms- the status of selfhood. This leads into questions such as ?who or what is conscious or who or what has a self?? Turing machines, Star Trek transporters, the consciousness of ant colonies?eggh

What does it mean to say that ?I? exist? Do I exist? AAAAHHHH!!!!


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


Edited by buttonion (09/25/02 02:57 PM)


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
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Re: Identification of self [Re: buttonion]
    #907159 - 09/25/02 02:01 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I think if the brain was located in the abdomen, we would all say "Hey, down here!"  :laugh: 


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InvisibleIn(di)go
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Re: Identification of self [Re: chemkid]
    #907756 - 09/25/02 07:01 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

i think the key here are the eyes... if i am talking to somebody a ALWAYS look into the eyes, not all the time, obviously... but the eyes are the greatest doorway to the soul of any person... and that is the reason we say a pic of our head is a pic of ourselves, the door to our soul, our "beeing" are located in our head...
and besides the head is the most important organ in the expression of feelings and thoughts... we look sad, we look happy... we look thoughtful... and so on... and most people identify with their thoughts...


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OfflineViBrAnT
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Re: Identification of self [Re: In(di)go]
    #909066 - 09/26/02 04:14 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Rather than looking at a person directly in the eyes i direct my awareness with a clear mind into their energy field to sense if they are an STS or STO, i direct my conversation with them on that basis, eyes can be just too decieving. Study a good actor on T.V. and you will see what i mean.


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" liken this life illusory, for your sand castle will one day be adrift amongst the wind "




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OfflineGrowingVines
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Re: Identification of self [Re: ViBrAnT]
    #909159 - 09/26/02 05:58 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

this is an interesting subject. I feel that when someone really cares, you can tell by looking to there eyes. also on some emotions you cry, and tears come from the eyes, tears the sign of pain or extreme pleasure (makes ya wonder if Onions are special :smile: ). 

peace out brothers


--------------------
Peace out my brothers, for everyone has a bit of insanity in them


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InvisibleIn(di)go
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Re: Identification of self [Re: ViBrAnT]
    #909936 - 09/26/02 03:29 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

i know what you mean... but the deceiving part of the eye is on the exterior... eyebrow movements and such (try smiling and then pulling the skin of your forehead up with a finger... you will look sad, although you are smiling)... the eyebrow is a great indicator of thoughts...
what i am talking about is what lies behind the eyes... i can see/feel if someone is sad by looking into his eye... he can be laughing his ass off, but by looking deep inside of him you will see if he is really happy... and i betcha when he notices how deep you are looking inside of him he will stop laughing... but well... the energy field (aura) is another extremely good indicator a person has about his state of mind... i try to use both combined when finding out what a person is "up to"...


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