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InvisibleLinkA
Intrinsically No Good

Registered: 07/29/99
Posts: 2,311
Loc: Lost Woods, Hyrule
Re: Mixing substrate with casing! The next big thing?
    #71186 - 01/11/00 02:38 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

But, don't you run the dangerous risk of having the casing layer contaminate? I mean, if you have substrate in it, i'd give it about 3 days before it got hit. if it gets colonized slowly, then you're screwed. someone like ryche or you could probably do it, but i have problems with contaminated casings as it is. I'd like to hear about it though, if you try it.

Link

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Anonymous

Re: Mixing substrate with casing! The next big thing?
    #71188 - 01/11/00 03:03 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Sounds like a good idea to me... but I have one question, what does the concentration of compost to casing have to do with flushes? if you let it colonize like you say, won't it just end up colonizing faster with the 5 to 1 than with the 10 to 1? just wondering?
Oleander

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Offlineaims
journeyman
Registered: 11/26/98
Posts: 11
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: Mixing substrate with casing! The next big thing?
    #71189 - 01/11/00 03:13 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Link, I recently cased using (Stamet's?) recipe of 4 Volumes of Peat; 4 Volumes of Vermiculite; 1/4 Volume of Whiting; 1/4 Volume of Gypsum. This was wetted with bottled water and applied COMPLETELY UNSTERILISED. No contamination at all. Big healthy fruit. Try it!!


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Anonymous

Re: Mixing substrate with casing! The next big thing?
    #71190 - 01/11/00 07:00 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Shroom god, I'm about to try casing some Pan Cyan rye grain w/ some cow shit compost(Bag of manure, peat moss and verm). I'm looking for a way to fruit them w/ out straw/shit. It should work fine and think of the time saved. I'll post my results soon.


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Anonymous

Re: Mixing substrate with casing! The next big thing?
    #71191 - 01/12/00 02:29 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Link, you would reduce your risk of contamination! The mixed in material is fully colonized and will speed up the casing colonization. As for not pastuerizing the casing, I've never been a big believer in it anyway. I've done some pastuerized others not. It doesn't seem to mater much.

Oleander, I think the reason the higher ratio is said to fruit with more pins is because it will end up more tightly colonizing the casing. The times I've had the casing very colonized (or even overlayed) I've gotten a lot of smaller mushrooms. The times I've had the casing less colonized, I'm more likely to get a few larger ones.

aims, where did you get that casing receipe? I have both TMC and GGMM and didn't see it.

ShroomGod



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OfflineMycelium5150
Check theDate!!!!
Registered: 04/06/99
Posts: 541
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Mixing substrate with casing! The next big thing?
    #71192 - 01/12/00 03:13 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Hey shroomgod,
Thats too funny, i was thinking the same thing when i bought, probably, the same kit from the fungus fair in humboldt. The same guy was at the fair in sf and he reconized me. Why dont we we mix our casing? It made perfect sense to me when i read that on the instructions. By the way, did you make it to the fair? Did you see the cyanescens on display, those were mine. After walking around the fair for an hour i noticed therre were none on display. So i set out to find some. I hiked out in the park looking for a few hours and finally i found a nice sized patch. I picked them and brought them back to the fair. Ppl there were proud of a first timer finding them. well anyways, tell us how the casing works out.
Mycelium5150


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InvisibleRyche HawkV
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Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 2,063
Re: Mixing substrate with casing! The next big thing?
    #71193 - 01/12/00 03:56 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Come on guys... I think you both know the answer to this.
There are many reasons why a casing layer is even put over the substrate, WITHOUT grain or subtrate mixed in.

Ok.. here are some of the big reasons.

1: The casing layer is menat to protect the substrate below from immediate contams penetrating it !!!!

2: It simulates mushrooms natural growing environment of producing its mycelium underground and spreading to the surface to fruit on dead matter (the casing soil).

3: It helps hold in moisture for the substrate below, allowing the mycelium to feed from this moisture and be protected while it establishes its mycelium network (below, protected.

There are many more but I'll stop there at the 3 most important.

Shroom God.... you know.. as you even admitted in a recent post, as I do and many others know, that sometimes we experient lazily, and sometimes it works againts the rules, but most of the times it does not.
We all have beautiful flushes from time to time, and face failures even when we have done everything right.

Back to substrate in the casing soil.
Go back to the golden rule of casing, as indicated in all of Stamets books... do you really think he would have written all this valuable insightful information if he and many many MANY others before us and him, have not already tried this ?????
I dont think so.. his informatition is well thought out and explored from himself and many others that are deep into culitation that he travled around explored, and tested himself and wrote some damn good books on it that we have all based standards on. Casing soil being a big one.


Why we do not mix substrate, grain, colonized grain, birdseed, rye, straw, etc..... in with the casing soil is because it contaminates much easier then casing soil alone.
Think about it.. casing soil is only hit by a few molds..... colonizing substrate is hit by MANY MANY MOLDS !!! I've seen colors and shapes and forms of mold that I have no idea how this shit came to form on our planet let alone my substrate. And I know anybody that has done a lot of mushroom growing has seen some of this freaky shit as well.
Even Stamets...!!! Imagaine !!!! There is a reason subtrate mixed in with casing soil is not the standard.

Shroom God.. you know I luv ya and respect you, but because your portabellas has this success ONCE... what about the psilocybes. The Cubensis. Completely different mycelium.
Example.. grow out some panaeolus mycelium next to cubensis. Completely different mycelium, cubensis being much stronger,more resistant to contams, extremely more rhizomorphic, and fruits much easer. Same with many edibles. They grow extremely different mycelium then cubensis, and fruiit under many different conditions then cubensis.

Shroom God, before you post "The Next Big Thing" !!!! do a lot more research on this before many newbies hear your words as your are respected here, and start mixing in their subsrate with their casing soil and fail miserabley because the odds were not with them, which is exactly what your doing mixing substrate with casing soil, playing the odds for a little faster colonization and a slightly bigger flush, againts a high risk of contamination and loosing it all.

-peace-

[This message has been edited by Ryche Hawk (edited January 12, 2000).]



--------------------
-Peace-
HIGH QUALITY SPORES AND CULTURES AT www.muShrooms.com

Formerly
www.thehawkseye.com
Sacred Mushroom Spores


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Anonymous

Re: Mixing substrate with casing! The next big thing?
    #71194 - 01/12/00 06:56 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Ryche, Read page 126(s.a.c.) in the bible. What were talking about is supplementing the casing w/some left over spawn to speed colonization and add more nutrition to the substrate. I have used cotton seed meal befour and it worked w/great success so I have no reason to fear colonized rye. Any way the casing will perform like any other except a little faster :rolleyes:.


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Anonymous

Re: Mixing substrate with casing! The next big thing?
    #71195 - 01/12/00 07:50 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

there are some kind of right thing in this matter of mixing colonized substrate and casing...
Spanish agaricus growers mixe a completely colonized substrate with the casing to speed and improve the fruitings since lot of years ago....
well ...but as ryche said not all the myceliums are the same....
Nacho


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Anonymous

Re: Mixing substrate with casing! The next big thing?
    #71196 - 01/12/00 02:47 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Ryche, I don't think colonized substrate has any greater contamination risk than uncolonized casing soils! In fact, I think the exact opposite. Think about it: when is the last time a PF cake has spontaneously contaminated? When is the last time an uncolonized casing of yours has contaminated? Case closed! (no pun intended)

I did not make up this idea. This is directly from instructions of the hundreds of kits that were sold at the mushroom fair. And those kits rocked! I have some portabellas going now as well as some pink oysters that look sweet! These guys must know something because their kits are awesome!

Anyway, the point is that by mixing a very small amount of colonized substrate in the casing soil, you can speed up the very dangerous period of casing colonizaiton. It's this period that I have trouble with contamination. Once a casing is run through with mycelium, it is fairly resistant to any contamination given you don't get it too wet.

I am NOT suggesting adding enough substrate to the casing soil to supplement it! I know the casing must be fairly non-nutritive. That is NOT the point. Again, I'm just saying to speed up the casing colonization, one could add 1 to 5 or 1 to 10 parts (or even a lot less, say 1 part in 30) ground colonized birdseed substrate to the casing. You just need a few fragments of mycelium in that casing soil to really make a difference in colonization time and completeness.

I tell you what, I'll start some cubes and give it a whirl soon. Others should do the same. It works on Portabellas and others grown on compost and cased with a peat-based casing, so I don't see why it wouldn't work with cubes grown on birdseed cased with a peat/vermiculite-based casing.

ShroomGod


PS - Mycelium5150, yes I made it to the fair and bought tons of stuff! I bought three kits in fact, all of which are doing well. The pink oysters are particularly beautiful. I also bought mycelium dowels of several species of edibles as well as some of the best mushroom pictures I have ever seen.

[This message has been edited by ShroomGod (edited January 12, 2000).]



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Anonymous

Re: Mixing substrate with casing! The next big thing?
    #71197 - 01/12/00 05:10 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I believe a cake is pretty contam resistant, but it seems to me they aren't so resistant once you crumble them. Birdseed cakes at least there is a lot of exposed grain right after you crumble. I don't however see how this is any worse than the exposure suffered when the cake is crumbled for a regular casing. This exposure is ended as the mycel recovers, yes.. I wonder though how fine you intend to crumble the cakes before mixing with casing. It seems that if you crumble to a fine enough size it really hurts the mycel.

It'd be great if this works, though it looks like several people who know more than me have different expectations. Anyhow it'll be good to hear what happens.

[This message has been edited by Buffalo Trance (edited January 12, 2000).]



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Anonymous

Re: Mixing substrate with casing! The next big thing?
    #71198 - 01/12/00 05:27 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I have a tray of Ecuadors going right and I'm going to mix some innoculated grain w/the casing. Let's see how long It takes to colonize :biggrin: :biggrin:.


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Anonymous

Re: Mixing substrate with casing! The next big thing?
    #71199 - 01/12/00 05:45 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Why doesn't anyone just grow out some corn cob spawn, as cob is very resistant to contams, and is very easy to crumble into small pieces, and mix this in throughout the casing mixture? I think this sounds like one of those ideas where you go, "God! why didn't I think of that? I must be an idiot." It's so obvious when you think about it...
Oleander

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I'm only two people away from having a menage a trois!



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Anonymous

Re: Mixing substrate with casing! The next big thing?
    #71200 - 01/12/00 06:15 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

So I just cased the colonized straw and mixed in some rye grain spawn. I'll update daily.


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InvisibleAnubisRonin
enthusiast
Registered: 12/15/99
Posts: 248
Re: Mixing substrate with casing! The next big thing?
    #71201 - 01/12/00 06:46 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I dont think anyone should be afraid of making a mistake... especially beginners.. If you screw up thats how you learn but if you dare and try something that sounds like it wont work, you just might make it work and pioneer something new to make this hobby easier....


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Anonymous

Re: Mixing substrate with casing! The next big thing?
    #71202 - 01/12/00 10:11 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

The Alchemist, thank you and I eagerly await your report. Will you be incubating the chamber (i.e. 80-85°F) during casing colonization? I find this definitely works the best.

ShroomGOd



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InvisibleRyche HawkV
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Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 2,063
Re: Mixing substrate with casing! The next big thing?
    #71203 - 01/13/00 12:22 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I'm tossing this idea back and forth in my head how it could work. But the part of it that keeps coming back to me saying its not beneficial is this.

When mycelium starts colonizing the casing soil, its attached to the bulk of the substrate below. The substrate sends out its mycelium building a network through the casing soil. The main bulk of the substrate is what feeds the mycelum at the surface, and the mycelium at the surface feeds the mycelium below by absorbing moisture from the air etc... as well.

If you have a bunch of broken up peices of colonized grain mixed into casing soil, which does not have nutriants, seems to me its not going to be doing much growing since its not attached to any mycelium network backing it giving it strength and support, and energy to travel through the casing establishing the mycelium network.

Just my thoughts.
I'm going to be doing a bunch of casing very soon, perhaps I'll try to patches, equal two one another, same strain, same amount of substrate, same amount of casing soil, but one I'll mix in a 1/4 pint of crumbled colonized grain with the casing soil and see what happens. Should be an interesting experiment.

BTW.. speaking of tasty dinner mushrooms, ever tried Lions Mane? I tried some while in WA and OH MY ... by far the tastiess mushroom I've ever had. Grilled in a little butter, they tasted very similiar to lobster. A definate must try species for those growing edibles as well.

-peace-

[This message has been edited by Ryche Hawk (edited January 13, 2000).]



--------------------
-Peace-
HIGH QUALITY SPORES AND CULTURES AT www.muShrooms.com

Formerly
www.thehawkseye.com
Sacred Mushroom Spores


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Anonymous

Re: Mixing substrate with casing! The next big thing?
    #71204 - 01/13/00 01:54 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Ryche, the fruiting won't commence until the caseing is colonized adaquetly. By this point all the little fragmented pieced will have grown together and will have become part of the whole..

This whole thing was an idea I had last year, only I had hoped it would work to add a cake slury to the caseing mix to function both as the moisture and the innoculant... I never got a chance to try it, as everything in my life fell apart including all experimentation...Oh god that sound pathetic doesn't it... oh well.. have to try it with the cambodia cubensis soon!.... Anyone interested might want to do a search for that thread. It might have some decent ideas in it, I don't remember..

Hey Ryche, you mentioned in another thread that you planned on posting a tek dealing with ecuadors grown on dung... Is that still happening?

ThE JafF



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InvisibleCondi1
old hand
Registered: 01/01/00
Posts: 502
Re: Mixing substrate with casing! The next big thing?
    #71205 - 01/13/00 02:30 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

.

[This message has been edited by Condi1 (edited October 06, 2000).]



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Offlinesean123
Stranger
Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 351
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: Mixing substrate with casing! The next big thing?
    #71206 - 01/13/00 03:25 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

doesn't the mycelium grow differently through the spawn medium/ substrate then it does through the casing layer?

mixing the casing layer with colonized spawn medium sounds interesting why dosen't some one try it and see what happens.

shroom god you are saying to mix the casing soil with colonized spawn medium and then case the substrate with the casing soil/ colonized spawn medium mixture?

in the case of psilocybe cubensis which doesn't need a casing layer to fruit or a substrate beyond the spawn medium (whatever medium that maybe) would mixing the entire colonized medium throughly with the casing soil be more benificial then simply casing it or not casing it at all?



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