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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Christianity........the "cop out" religion. [Re: niteowl]
    #7023530 -

"Do you think that if people of other religions would "think right" they would "see the light" and convert to Christianity?.......Is that the only way that god will speak to them?"

You are confusing causes and effects. "thinking right" is not the cause of salvation. Salvation is based on God's mercy alone. The fact that someone is given the faith EVIDENCES the mercy given, it does not cause the mercy to be given.

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Re: Christianity........the "cop out" religion. [Re: niteowl]
    #7023540 -

You do not have a complete picture of Christian theology based on what you've said.
Firstly, while you ARE correct that 'right faith' is necessary (the 8-Fold Path in Buddhism also requires 'right faith'), most Christians have no idea that the title 'son of God' was an Old Testament title for any King of Israel. Those who believed that Jesus was the promised Messiah [Christ], meant that as King, He carried the Divine Right of Kingship - that He was 'a man anointed by God' to be King. The Greek word Christ [Christos] means anointed, as in when one has Holy Oil ['Chrism,' same root word] poured on one's head ("...he anointest my head with oil..." - 23rd Psalm). The Hebrew word is Messiah [Messhiach]. Jesus the Christ, therefore was one's King, but not in a political sense (the sense for which he was allegedly executed - sedition - claiming to be King of Judea). He was King of the Kingdom of Heaven. He manifested what human life would be like if one was living in the Kingdom of Heaven. He was the spiritual head or leader. He leads the Way. In fact the early Christians called themselves "The Way." It referred to 'The Way to be' - compassionate, merciful, loving, altruistic (all of these means ego-transcending). Heaven begins in this present embodied life in the world, but it transcends death and one awakens into a spiritual existence out of the body, or, as was formulated later, in a 'resurrection body' which remains an undescribed Mystery in Christian theology. The Tao in Taoism also means 'The Way.' I understand it to be the same Way. Thus, to be in Tao for the Taoist, is phenomenologically identical to being in Christ for the Christian. Christians don't agree for the most part because they are abysmally ignorant of the meanings of their own religion and even more ignorant of other religions.

The 'Vicarious Sacrifice' theology that you refer to is actually the part that many early Christians objected to - that the 'atoning death' of Jesus 'cleanses' us of our sins (thoughts/actions which separate us from awareness of God/Heaven). This language is the language of mythos, NOT the language of psychology that we know today which has the concept of assuming personal responsibility - which means internalizing the power to change within our own personal loci. The ancients didn't think this way and in fact ancient Hebrews didn't talk about 'eternal life,' because of the absence of this individualistic thinking. For ancient Hebrews, it was all about the survival of Israel, not personally experienced Heaven. It was Greek thought, with its idea of immortality that underwent changes into 'eternal life' in the Kingdom of Heaven. These individualistic thinking trends were not the beliefs of orthodox Christian thought which was 'forced' on Christians by the 3rd century, but rather, they were held by a majority of Christians who later killed off by the orthodoxy - the Gnostic Christians. The Gnostic Christians brought the mythic language of Christian doctrine into symbolic and psychological levels so that one could DO something with them internally! C.G. Jung called the Gnostics the first depth psychologists.

The mechanism of Karma is reflected in different Biblical contexts, Old Testament and New: “…whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.” (Galatians 6:7); "He who lives by the sword dies by the sword." - Matt 26:52; "He that soweth iniquity shall reap vanity: and the rod of his anger shall fail." - Proverbs 22:8 are examples.

I have a very important place for Buddhism in my life. I wear a bracelet with The Great Mantra of the Vajrayana, I have two 8' vertical prayer flags in my back yard and the room in which I type is decorated with Tibetan Buddhist art. I wrote a 222 page doctoral dissertation on Tibetan Buddhism and Western Psychology and I have met notable Tibetan Buddhist lamas, watched sand mandalas being constructed, received Kalachakra initiation, and I have sat before the Dalai Lama. Nevertheless, while Buddhism recognizes only the Transpersonal Absolute, Christianity recognizes the Transpersonal Absolute (Godhead) as well as the Personal God. For myself, God is at least personal, definately Transpersonal, but not less than personal. Therefore, having a personal aspect, interpersonal prayer becomes a mode of communication. Not only is Transpersonal Union possible in the Kingdom of God, but personal communion is possible with what Eastern Orthodox Christians call "The Uncreated Energies" of God. Interfacing with the human consciousness (which ancients called 'spirit' [pneuma]), even petitionary prayer is possible in Christianity, whereas it is not possible in Buddhism.

This is only my testimony and explanation. Everyone has their own priorities. Buddha lived contemporaneously with Plato, a world apart. Buddhism may have actually influenced Socrates and Plato, and hence Christianity into which Platonic thought entered, but this is a different discussion. I see Buddha and Plato as the world's two greatest philosophers - East and West. I see Jesus/Y'shua/Issa as the Logos of God, even though I reject the virgin birth and other mythological embellishments. In fact, Jesus represents The Way (to be) even if He never existed as a historical human being (the conclusion of many Gnostics and of the modern theologian-physician Albert Schweitzer).

I hope this was somewhat clarifying, or at least entertaining.

Peace.

- MtG


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Christianity........the "cop out" religion. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7023697 -

:thumbup:

I find myself pondering the personal vs impersonal aspects of "God". Currently I would find it more practical to follow Krishna rather than Jesus, given that the Hindu religions seem a lot more sincere and less violent/dogmatic than Christianity and its history.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: Christianity........the "cop out" religion. [Re: niteowl]
    #7023805 -

niteowl said:
As a whole, the Christian religions believe that, in order to get to heaven, you have to.......

Believe that Jesus was the son of god and was sacrificed for your sins.
All sin is washed away through Jesus

IMO this is a cop out.



I think your view on Christianity is a bit too general to really be valid at all. First of all, Christianity is such a large blanket term, it's like saying American. It is literally a melting pot of books, stories, legends, etc (both Christianity and America).

If you take it literally, then I really have no comment. I don't understand people who interpret the Bible / stories at Church as literal fact. Probably never will - and I guess I can agree, it's a cop out - for them, not Christians "as a whole" as you say.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Re: Christianity........the "cop out" religion. [Re: kotik]
    #7023949 -

Quote:
I don't understand people who interpret the Bible / stories at Church as literal fact.


Satan just wrote your name on a tub of lava, heathen!


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Re: Christianity........the "cop out" religion. [Re: niteowl]
    #7023959 -

a central tenet of the christian faith (someone correct me if i'm wrong here) is that god had himself tortured to death by humanity (his creation) to save humanity (his creation) from his own wrath.

cop out religion? i think "utterly insane" is a better way to put it.


--------------------


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Re: Christianity........the "cop out" religion. [Re: wilshire]
    #7023974 -

:firecum:


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Re: Christianity........the "cop out" religion. [Re: kotik]
    #7024027 -

kotik said:
I think your view on Christianity is a bit too general to really be valid at all. First of all, Christianity is such a large blanket term, it's like saying American. It is literally a melting pot of books, stories, legends, etc (both Christianity and America).

If you take it literally, then I really have no comment. I don't understand people who interpret the Bible / stories at Church as literal fact. Probably never will - and I guess I can agree, it's a cop out - for them, not Christians "as a whole" as you say.


I was talking /mainly/ to the Fundamentalist out there who believe that the bible is to be taken literally.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: Christianity........the "cop out" religion. [Re: niteowl]
    #7024035 -

niteowl said:
kotik said:
I think your view on Christianity is a bit too general to really be valid at all. First of all, Christianity is such a large blanket term, it's like saying American. It is literally a melting pot of books, stories, legends, etc (both Christianity and America).

If you take it literally, then I really have no comment. I don't understand people who interpret the Bible / stories at Church as literal fact. Probably never will - and I guess I can agree, it's a cop out - for them, not Christians "as a whole" as you say.


I was talking /mainly/ to the Fundamentalist out there who believe that the bible is to be taken literally.



It's funny to see people slavishly devoted to something when they don't even know what it actually is.


--------------------
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." ― Plato

"I communicate, therefore I am" - I

"Nature is ancient, but surprises us all." - Björk

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Re: Christianity........the "cop out" religion. [Re: niteowl]
    #7024049 -

I was going to post something along the lines of what Markos said, but since we're talking about Christianity as it's commonly practiced, I am sadly forced to agree. It seems that Jesus' more esoteric teachings never really caught on with the general public, so this exoteric "cop out" religion has come to represen Christianity in general.


--------------------

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Re: Christianity........the "cop out" religion. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7024117 -

:headbanger:

Believing the bible is a literal FACT.......
is as reasonable as believing that Dracula is a real person.

Was Vlad the Impaler a real person :yesnod:
The legend of Dracula came from stories of Vlad.

Was Jesus a real person :yesnod:
Did he do all the things stated in the bible :shake:
Did he stir up a bunch of shit with the current establishment :yesnod:

Jesus was nothing more than a radical, hippie rebel........not the son of god
:sorry:


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: Christianity........the "cop out" religion. [Re: niteowl]
    #7024182 -

first of all, Jesus was black

2nd,


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Re: Christianity........the "cop out" religion. [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7024235 -

Quote:
first of all, Jesus was black


:whatever:


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Christianity........the "cop out" religion. [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7024260 -

If Jesus didn't literally exist then all the apostles who wrote the scriptures are chronic liars, since they openly testify that He did in fact exist, healed many, brought many back to physical life, and He died, and rose again. They also declare Him to be fully man and God in many places. The Holy Spirit wrote the scripture not mere men.

Many things in scripture are parables, allegories, types and pictures of Christ. Did the things in scripture actually happen? absolutely. This doesn't mean scripture is to be interpreted literally in the spiritual sense. Scripture is spiritual truth, and events have spiritual meanings.

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Re: Christianity........the "cop out" religion. [Re: fivepointer]
    #7024296 -

Quote:
If Jesus didn't literally exist then all the apostles who wrote the scriptures are chronic liars, since they openly testify that He did in fact exist, healed many, brought many back to physical life, and He died, and rose again. They also declare Him to be fully man and God in many places. The Holy Spirit wrote the scripture not mere men.



Then why isn't stuff like this still happening?


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Re: Christianity........the "cop out" religion. [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7024613 -

Cracka_X said:
Quote:
If Jesus didn't literally exist then all the apostles who wrote the scriptures are chronic liars, since they openly testify that He did in fact exist, healed many, brought many back to physical life, and He died, and rose again. They also declare Him to be fully man and God in many places. The Holy Spirit wrote the scripture not mere men.



Then why isn't stuff like this still happening?


How hard are you looking?


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: Christianity........the "cop out" religion. [Re: leery11]
    #7024670 -

one man's jesus is another's krishna. I could see something amazing and dub it anything I want. If I had jesus constantly in my head then I'd probably dub it jesus. The same would go if I were drowned with another religion. What's the difference? There is none to me.

And if there were these amazing miracles then why aren't they televised more often? Aside from the Christ channels.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Re: Christianity........the "cop out" religion. [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7024690 -

what i asked is if you had found miracles

encountered people with siddhis ?

therein what you said is applicable, those who really think, for instance, that others can read minds, will run into situations which validate this belief, and it may create the most amazing occurences, and these occurences are not imo invalid just because it required belief to manifest them

but my question had nothing to do with television.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: Christianity........the "cop out" religion. [Re: leery11]
    #7024993 -

I've seen and have experienced many things. I would call SOME of those things miracles, whereas speculation could drive reasoning elsewhere.

My answer is based on fivepointer's quote and not what's on your mind. You speak of another realm that I don't necessarily disagree with but at the same time don't really encounter many people with siddhis.

This may just be coincidence or something staged. I will always be skeptical because of the ulterior motive of money in these days drives people to do funny stuff. every now n then I'll meet a good soul but most everyone wants something and I don't have anything that I want to give except maybe trade some words and sit down for a while.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Christianity........the "cop out" religion. [Re: fivepointer]
    #7026016 -

fivepointer said:
If Jesus didn't literally exist then all the apostles who wrote the scriptures are chronic liars, since they openly testify that He did in fact exist, healed many, brought many back to physical life, and He died, and rose again.  They also declare Him to be fully man and God in many places.  The Holy Spirit wrote the scripture not mere men.


I never claimed that Jesus never existed, just that these so called "miracles" he did were nothing but embellishment on the part of the story tellers......who were men not spirits :rolleyes:....and men do lie to try and prove a point.


Just like the legend of Dracula.........once a mere man, now he is immortal, through many tellings of his story.
Is Dracula a real person.....no
Was Vlad the Impaler a real person.....yes


The same thing has happened with Jesus. He did many things to disturb the "way of things" back in the day.........pissed off some people and got executed for his efforts.

The real Jesus cant be known because of all the myth and legend behind his story.

People have embellished the Jesus story for THOUSANDS of years......the true story of Jesus has been lost through the egos of men, trying to make him out to be more than he was.


Kinda like Dracula.

:levitate:


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Spirituality & Mysticism
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