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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
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What is the science behind the lemon juice experiment?
    #5669592 -

Hi there. I could post this in the lemon juice thread, but I don't think as many people would see it. Basically, I am curious about the science behind using juice to potentiate the effects of mushrooms. This is what I understand:
Psilocybin and psilocin are more readily extracted into acidified water, I know that. So (lemon) juice, which is acid, causes the psiloc/yb/in in the ground-up mushroom powder to be extracted into the juice.

Psilocybin is converted to psilocin in the body naturally. Consuming the alkaloids in liquid form causes the psilocybin to convert into psilocin more readily(?<---no idea). This is because the alkaloids are, in a sense, "pre-digested"(?). Consequently, more of the psilocin enters the bloodstream and the brain faster than eating mushrooms, which take time to digest. Since you are supposed to drink the juice fast, you would get higher levels of psilocin into your bloodstream all at once than from eating mushrooms.

How does that sound? I know a little bit about this, but half of what I've written could be nonsense. Anyone have any input?

Edited by Land_Crab (05/24/06 06:10 PM)

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Re: What is the science behind the lemon juice experiment? [Re: Land_Crab]
    #5670764 -

This is my understanding based on personal and observed experineces and my knowledge as a student in chemical engineering.


1) You want to increase the surface area of contact between "mushroom mass" and gateways into your bloodstream (primarily through intestines but also through stomach lining).
-Easiest way to increase the surface area is to powder your dose in a small coffee grinder before injesting.

2) Stirring mushroom mass into an acidic solution (such as lemon juice) slowly allows for an extraction of Psilocybin/Psilocin into 1 or more layers (varying liquid composition phases) of the soution.
-This allows for the liquid solution to accumulate a small concentration of the "goodies"
-The extraction rate is based on the surface area of contact. If you powder the mushroom mass before extraction it will be much more successful.

3) Liquids are passed through the stomach and into the intestines at a much higher rate than solids (>10x).
-A liquid solution, containing Psilocin/Psilocybin, would reach the intestines more quickly than a solid.

4) A liquid containing a drug will be absorbed into the bloodstream quicker than a solid due to the mass transfer laws.



Conclusion:
Quicker abosorbtion into the bloodstream may be obtained by increasing the surface area of contact between the mushrooms mass and the gateways to the bloodstream. The result of this should be observed as a shorter come-up and a longer peak. Perhaps a shorter come-down will be observed as well, although in personal experience it wasn't noticable.

Hope that helps.


--------------------
I do not grow anything illegal.
I do not sell anything.
I am, however, a very curious individual.
I also try to be helpful.

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Re: What is the science behind the lemon juice experiment? [Re: FreedomFight]
    #5670815 -

Quote taken from leaves from the tree of life - vegan cooking and health

Quote:
No liquids should be used at mealtime to wash the food down. Liquid with meals make it hard for the food to digest, as the liquid needs to be absorbed before the stomach can do its work.


therefore, your stomach would wait to digest the liquids before digestion of the ground mush. you would get hit with a fast wave from the intense acidic extract being digested first.

Also
Quote:
Iced drinks taken with meals arrest the digestion until the stomach can be warmed again.


Do you think putting the mush/lemon mixture in the freezer while its doing its thing would make a difference in effect? anyone played with the temperature of the solution yet?

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Re: What is the science behind the lemon juice experiment? [Re: Land_Crab]
    #6909358 -

I think we should look closely at phosphatase enzymes. Psilocybin is a prodrug that is dephosphorylated into the active drug psilocin. Prodrugs are good if their absorption is better than the drug, or if they can be put up into a solution that is more stable or tolerable than the drug itself. Plasma phosphatases are very efficient and so you don't lose much, if at all, by taking prodrug. Since psilocybin is more stable in solution that psilocin, you have everything to gain and nothing to lose by preventing the conversion of psilocybin to psilocin while it's still in your tea cup.

The Gartz study suggested that the culprit in a bad extraction is probably phosphatase activity.

"...the high activity of enzymes of the phosphatase type in the aqueous solutions of alcohols was already described in aqueous mycelial extracts of P. cubensis and other psilocybin containing mushrooms many years ago (BOCKS 1968, Gartz 1993, Weber and Horita 1963). These enzymes were also extracted with the water containing solvents and caused a partial dephosphorylation of psilocybin to psilocin (Tables 1 and 3). By using these aqueous soluions it was also observed that in some cases bluish mixtures have been resulted after extraction as a sign of partial oxydation of psilocin (BOCKS 1968, Gartz 1989a, Weber and Horita 1963)."

I take it, methanol does not extract phosphatases very well and is the preferred method advocated by Gartz for laboratory extraction. If you read his data carefully, however, the acetic acid extraction is almost as good, unless it is heated. Phosphatase activity is definitely present in the acid solution so I propose we consider that there is something about a cold acid solution that interferes with phosphatase activity.

I don't know squat about mushroom phosphatases so it's hard to say. With regard to other fungi, I came across one study that identified an extracellular phosphatase in Aspergillus that is only active in a narrow pH range (5-8) and works best at high temps (65C). A similar study in two Glomus species showed that the endogenous phosphatases were active in an even more narrow pH range (5.2-5.8) and were inhibited by low temperatures. If shroomie phosphatase has the same properties, we can explain why low pH is good and high temp is bad.

So my theory, which I'm sure is worth exactly what y'all paid for it, is that lemon juice is good because it:
1. Lowers the pH, thus
2. Inhibiting mushroom phosphatases that convert psilocybin into psilocin.

This increases the effectiveness of the dose because:
1. There is less degradation of active ingredients in solution; and/or
2. Psilocybin may have greater oral bioavailability than psilocin.


References
-Gartz. Extraction and analysis of indole derivatives from fungal biomass. Journal of Basic Microbiology. Vol 34, 1994; 17-22
-Yadav et al. An extracellular phosphatase from Aspergillus fumigatus. Indian J Exp Biol. 1996 Dec;34(12):1257-60
-Joner et al. Phosphatase activity of external hyphae of two arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi. Mycol Res 2000, vol. 104 (1), pp. 81-86

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
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