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Invisibletrigger
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do mushroom toxins cause permanent damage?
    #6552591 - 02/10/07 10:31 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Do Amatoxins, Orellanin, Gyromitrin, and other Unidentified Toxins, cause permanent and or irreversible damage to the body?

My main concern is Amatoxins, others if known, would symptom-free amounts of these toxins cause un-heal-able damage, what of a prolonged symptom-free exposure? with that, would the body develop immunity, or degrade?

Even information on exposure to harmful and or deadly amounts of these toxins, being degenerative or to immunize the body, would be helpful to my study, yet of a lesser concern.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: do mushroom toxins cause permanent damage? [Re: trigger]
    #6552794 - 02/10/07 11:26 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I'd check with a medical website or book to get that answer about amatoxins. Death is pretty permanent though. As for 'unidentified toxins', how can anybody answer that?
RR


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OfflineGreenAssHands
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Re: do mushroom toxins cause permanent damage? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6553504 - 02/11/07 08:20 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure amatoxins can woop your liver and kidneys ass, then make you shit for a few days.

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OfflineBlazedForever
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Re: do mushroom toxins cause permanent damage? [Re: trigger]
    #6555040 - 02/11/07 06:25 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

According to this essay psilocin and psilocybin containing mushrooms pose almost no threat to health. Check it out.

Information from www.erowid.com

http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_health1.pdf

Edited by BlazedForever (02/11/07 06:27 PM)

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: do mushroom toxins cause permanent damage? [Re: BlazedForever]
    #6555090 - 02/11/07 06:40 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

The thread is about amatoxins, the poison in death caps. They trash your liver for a few days alright, while they kill you. I read a recent article about a poisoning case in the SF bay area where milk thistle was used to treat the people. Only the most elderly of the family that was poisoned died. The others survived. You can probably find it with a search. It was a mainstream press article if I remember.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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OfflineBlazedForever
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Re: do mushroom toxins cause permanent damage? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6555156 - 02/11/07 06:57 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

what exactly are death caps then?

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: do mushroom toxins cause permanent damage? [Re: BlazedForever]
    #6555265 - 02/11/07 07:15 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)



--------------------
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: do mushroom toxins cause permanent damage? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6555986 - 02/11/07 09:27 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

As for if the damage is permanent, I would say no. The toxins act on the liver, which is highly capable of regenerating itself.

I've read that they can take a lobe of the liver for a transplant and the donors liver will pretty much regrow to it's normal size. So I would think that as long as the liver is not totally destroyed that it will recover. I'm no liver expert though, so this is just my opinion.


-FF

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Re: do mushroom toxins cause permanent damage? *DELETED* [Re: fastfred]
    #6556374 - 02/11/07 11:03 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Post deleted by Tamadragon

Reason for deletion: ===



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Offlinemagicfluff
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Re: do mushroom toxins cause permanent damage? [Re: Tamadragon]
    #6557611 - 02/12/07 10:39 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

The liver is capable of regenerating it's self to some extent, but if you totally mess it up it won't do such a stellar job.

Theoretically, you can get away with amatoxin poisoning, in that you might not die from the initial poisoning. Realistically, I can't imagine doing something like that to your body is going to leave it unmarked.

The effects are similar to severe alcohol abuse. So they cause the liver to get fatty and inflamed. They also cause cellular death within liver tissue.

All in all, something you don't want to be eating.

Edited by magicfluff (03/06/07 04:36 AM)

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Invisibletrigger
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Re: do mushroom toxins cause permanent damage? [Re: magicfluff]
    #6564418 - 02/13/07 08:04 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

well i am writing a study about how poisons make the body's immune system stronger, along with tissue growth and deterioration. i have collected little data of mushroom toxins. i found some tales of native Americans slowly building there tolerance to deadly mushrooms, to lower there chance of death and sickness in mistaken or experimental (edible) mushroom consumption. much of what i have collected are studies conduced during the cold war, to aid Soviet spy's health in case of exposure in handling deadly toxins. i wish to keep my study on the side of natural toxins and mushroom toxins, yet little information is available.
in no way i plan to consume deadly toxins, thank you all for inquires and if anymore information available it will be much appreciated.


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OfflineI8thesh400m
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Re: do mushroom toxins cause permanent damage? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6618566 - 02/27/07 10:08 PM (17 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I'd check with a medical website or book to get that answer about amatoxins. Death is pretty permanent though. As for 'unidentified toxins', how can anybody answer that?
RR



Couldnt have said it better my friend.


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sunny:  :sunny:  :sunny:  :sunny:
When i cut the stem, it turned blue fast. Is this normal?
..........................
GET DOWN WITH THE NOOB TEK!
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=6607835&page=0&vc=&PHPSESSID=#Post6607835

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OfflineI8thesh400m
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Re: do mushroom toxins cause permanent damage? [Re: I8thesh400m]
    #6618583 - 02/27/07 10:13 PM (17 years, 24 days ago)

did you know saliva in youre nose helps filter out air born contaminates from youre blood?
With that said, studys show picking youre nose, and allowing more airborn sicknesses or whatever.. Will increase youre disposition of that paticular thing., YES< picking youre nose is healthy.
I know allll of my posts are long but hey.. My fingers are bullets.
So, i would think if any poisin wasnt fatal, youre immune system MIGHT become familiar with it,, reducing future affects, But then again.. you could get liver poisin and die.
Good topic, and after tripping at a hospital with my friend having his spleen * i think it was that* removed... For unshure reasons..
Good luck, hopefully you dont find out the hard way


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sunny:  :sunny:  :sunny:  :sunny:
When i cut the stem, it turned blue fast. Is this normal?
..........................
GET DOWN WITH THE NOOB TEK!
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=6607835&page=0&vc=&PHPSESSID=#Post6607835

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Offlineshirley knott
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Re: do mushroom toxins cause permanent damage? [Re: trigger]
    #6620695 - 02/28/07 02:35 PM (17 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

trigger said:
Do Amatoxins cause permanent and or irreversible damage to the body?


yes, the liver is never the same again after any serious insult. also wrong forum.


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buh

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Offlinemagicfluff
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Registered: 02/12/07
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Re: do mushroom toxins cause permanent damage? [Re: shirley knott]
    #6640421 - 03/06/07 04:45 AM (17 years, 17 days ago)

I can see what you're getting at.

I think it's probably quite a fine balance.

You could start off with homeopathy. Where you have so little of the 'bad thing' in the solution that you're quite likely to get a tablet with none of it in. Down side, the correlation of use with beneficial effects is terrible at best.

Picking your nose and exposing your body to bacteria is probably okay because so few of the bacteria will be able to take over your immune system and will be wiped out in an orderly manner. Down side, you might feel sick more of the time but there probably will be a measurable increase in immunity, and a good wide spectrum of immunity across your system too.

Eating toxic mushrooms is on the other end of the scale I expect. There you'd expect there to be a massive gain, but the damage the mushrooms do in the process could easily outweigh that. Taking very small doses could help avoid that. But I don't really see the point. You won't find amatoxins in much else, and it'll be amatoxin breakdown that this exposure will help accelerate... if it doesn't kill you. All of the, very specific, poisoning agent will focus on one part of your body.

Natural medicine is such a tricky one, because being ignorant of it can risk missing out on incredible finds. But I think this one is perhaps leaning towards the bad idea catagory for me.

Just living out in the wild and eating things raw would do a huge amount for your body. What we need is our futuristic modern world coupled with vines, dirt and berry bushes on the street. :grin:

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Offlineblizzietomyhiz
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Re: do mushroom toxins cause permanent damage? [Re: GreenAssHands]
    #6641697 - 03/06/07 02:27 PM (17 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

GreenAssHands said:
I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure amatoxins can woop your liver and kidneys ass, then make you shit for a few days.



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Offlinedanr49
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Re: do mushroom toxins cause permanent damage? [Re: trigger]
    #6654334 - 03/09/07 09:44 PM (17 years, 14 days ago)

Amatoxins from Amanita phalloides are potent hepatotoxins, i.e. liver poisons that can cause acute liver failure. The current partial antidote is Milk Thistle, which may work by antioxidant mechanisms.

A Bulgarian team published a paper this month and put forth the idea that it may be peroxides specifically which are responsible for most of the oxidative damage to liver tissue. They did some investigation and found that amatoxins seem to raise the antioxidant enzyme SOD and lower Catalase. Catalase is the most important enzyme in the cell for neutralizing peroxides. And when SOD is increased, this leads to a higher production of peroxide along with the direct effect of the toxin in producing peroxidative damge. So, this could be like a 3-way assault via peroxidation of liver tissue. Milk thistle might stabilize production of catalase to counter this to some extent.

If this idea is correct, then it would be best to take a cocktail of antioxidants to counter the effects of amatoxins, and particularly antioxidants that scavenge peroxides.

The most potent substances for this purpose are thiodipropionic acid and dilauryl thiodipropionate, which are VERY powerful destroyers of peroxides. These are available at lef.org.

Also, N-Acetyl-cysteine and quercetin have some ability to scavenge peroxides.

For maintaining redox balance and countering ROS, the most powerful and safest substance for human use would be extended release R(+)Alpha lipoic acid (R-ALA) (not regular lipoic acid.) One of the only products is "R(+) SR" made by AOR of Canada (Advanced Orthomelecular Research). R-ALA also acts a cytoprotective substance in other ways aside from its direct antioxidant action helping to reduce apoptosis of liver cells in cases of poisoning, such as stabilizing and increasing efficiency of the respiratory chain and inhibiting certain cellular signals which induce inflammation.

So, in the case of Amanita poisoning, I would administer a large cocktail of various powerful antioxidants. But the core combatants to this massive oxidative assault would be Dilauryl thiodipropionate, thiodipropionic acid, Milk thistle, R(+) SR and N-AcetylCysteine.

N-AcetylCysteine is the only one of these sometimes sold as a prescription (MucoMist). It's used to counteract Tylenol overdose, which causes acute liver failure via oxidative mechanisms.

R(+) SR, a form of R-ALA is the most potent substance available for general oxidative stress, stabilizing cellular function, and preventing signals for cell suicide and inflammation.

The thiodipropionates are peroxide specialists, being incredibly destructive to peroxides more than any other non-toxic substance known.

===================

Med Hypotheses. 2007 Mar 1;
Free radical reactions might contribute to severe alpha amanitin hepatotoxicity - A hypothesis.Zheleva A, Tolekova A, Zhelev M, Uzunova V, Platikanova M, Gadzheva V.
Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, Thracian University, 6003 Stara Zagora, Bulgaria.

Alpha amanitin is a powerful natural hepatotoxin that belongs to the amatoxins isolated from deadly poisonous Amanita phalloides mushroom. The basic molecular mechanism of their toxicity was attributed to inhibition of RNA polymerase II of the eukaryotic cells. At present, the most effective clinical antidote to acute Amanita phalloides mushroom poisoning is silybin, an antioxidant possessing free radical scavenger activity and inhibiting lipid peroxidation, stabilizing membrane structure and protecting enzymes under conditions of oxidative stress. Bearing in mind the biological mechanism of silybin action and the fact that for different amatoxins (alpha, beta, and est. amanitins) does not established straight correlation between their in vivo LD50 and inhibitory constants (Ki) toward RNA polymerase III in vitro determined we supposed some additional toxic effects of these toxins might contribute to their severe hepatotoxicity. Our formerly in vitro experiments demonstrated that alpha amanitin could act either as an antioxidant or as a prooxidant depending on the treatment conditions and toxin concentration. By UV-visible spectroscopy we also shown that alpha amanitin was sensitive to oxidation by a system of lactoperoxidase/H(2)O(2) and assumed formation of free radical toxin intermediates. Having in mind some exogenic compounds including natural toxins can induce increased production of reactive oxygen species (ROS) we suggested similar generation of ROS provoked by alpha amanitin. Our recently in vitro studies have demonstrated that the alpha amanitin could increase superoxide dismutase (SOD) activity and inhibit catalase (CAT) activity to a considerable degree after together incubation of the toxin with any of enzymes. We have also shown that in vitro increased SOD activity was due to superoxide anion radical scavenging activity (SSA) of the toxin. This therefore informed the decision to study the in vivo effect of alpha amanitin on SOD and CAT activity and the level of lipid peroxidation (LPO) products in liver homogenates isolated from mice treated with the toxin. Statistical significant increased level of LPO products was found at the 6th day comparing to the 20th hour after mice treatment with a subletal dose of the toxin. Based on our previous in vitro and present in vivo studies we have made a hypothesize that in vivo during liver accumulation of the toxin it might be transformed to free radical intermediates causing increase in ROS levels. As a result a peroxidative process in hepatocytes might contribute to the severe alpha amanitin hepatotoxicity.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: do mushroom toxins cause permanent damage? [Re: danr49]
    #6654425 - 03/09/07 10:30 PM (17 years, 14 days ago)

Interesting stuff, thanks for posting. Check your pm please.
RR


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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Offlinefromthemoon
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Re: do mushroom toxins cause permanent damage? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6691986 - 03/20/07 04:03 PM (17 years, 3 days ago)

In my area, there is usually 1 case of family mushroom poisoning per year on the news. It's usually the same story; a family goes mushroom hunting, brings their pickings home, make dinner with those mushrooms, and chow down.

That night they are in the emergency room. More often than not, the family eats large amounts of the poison mushroom and die within 24-48 hours. Sometimes there is a survivor or two.

From what I've heard,
1) fatal doses destroy the liver beyond repair
2) near fatal doses still permanently destroy the liver and require liver transplants (often immediately)
3) low level exposure may leave scaring which is permanent, but some of the tissue damage may heal.

Now a days diagnosis is rapid and there are more treatment options verses just liver transplants. Mushroom poisoning is painful too.


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Look at the atoms in the air and allow your mind to see the other planes that coexists in the same physical space where you sit. There are vibrational strings in each and every atom containing infinite realities, universes, and dimensions. Multidimensional beings and entities are RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU!!! Only gravity and mental energy can pass through these different atomic branes and mushrooms can break the mental/spiritual membranes separating one reality from the other. TAKE A LOOK!

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