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OfflineMeat_hod
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Can a computer code evolve into a thinking entity?
    #6260902 - 11/08/06 08:48 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

When you think about it, DNA, and computer code is almost exactly the same. They are both merely set's of instructions. If DNA was ment to bring about survival through evolution, then wouldnt it be possible to someday write a self reproducing code that evolves itself into a more efficient unique code? I have heard about this actually being done somewhere, but i can't find the resource.

Anyways, could this code eventually evolve into an intellegent entity that inquires about it's own creation, just as we humans do.


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Offlinetools_n_corpses
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Re: Can a computer code evolve into a thinking entity? [Re: Meat_hod]
    #6261090 - 11/08/06 09:59 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Well it's a bit of an awkward question because DNA is instructions for construction of an entity, whilst computer code is an actual entity itself.

But there was an argument in philosophy of mind called "The Chinese Room argument" where it's pointed out that you can teach a computer Chinese without it ever actually understanding the language. It basically said that you can fool yourself into thinking a computer is conscious if you program it to convince you, but the question of whether it is truly conscious is meaningless. This makes sense if you understand how programming takes place, that it's basically a series of laws that lead to order, just like a complicated mechanism can move balls of different weights through them in completely different ways (like a pool table). Is this what consciousness is? I find it hard to believe that consciousness is a concept - a product of itself. Consciousness, I believe, spawns out of energies in the cosmos being directed in certain ways through neurological systems. I believe that the cause of a decision is the decision to make the decision - that deicion-making is a substance-in-itself like the physical forces, not an illusion amongst a mechanism. So no, I don't think computer code could create a thinking entity, the only way to do that is to direct the same substance our brain directs, whatever that's supposed to be.


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"Misery only doth exist, none miserable,

No doer is there; naught save the deed is found.

Nirvana is, but not the man who seeks it.

The Path exists, but not the traveler on it.
"

Edited by tools_n_corpses (11/08/06 10:07 AM)

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OfflineGomp
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Re: Can a computer code evolve into a thinking entity? [Re: Meat_hod]
    #6261109 - 11/08/06 10:03 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Ever seen the computer "game" called 'life'?

It was so similar to biological life, that the inventor called it life.
It is insane how simple all is.. :wink:

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Can a computer code evolve into a thinking entity? [Re: Meat_hod]
    #6261116 - 11/08/06 10:06 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Anyways, could this code eventually evolve into an intellegent entity that inquires about it's own creation, just as we humans do.




To do this it would need awareness and volition. Awareness might be possible on a very fundamental level. But by itself, awareness cannot reflect on itself. It needs the ability to think rationally.

It would also need volition. You can program some sort of volition, by inputing choices, and having the computer select the best one based on various criteria. But for true volition, the computer would have to be able to choose what to do on its own accord, including the potential for going against its own programming. How do you program a computer to have the ability to act against its own programming? Seems rather challenging.

I'm not saying it's not possible, but I certainly don't see it being possible in the near future.


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"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Can a computer code evolve into a thinking entity? [Re: Gomp]
    #6261182 - 11/08/06 10:28 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

you really have to respect this question in its actual context.

DNA codes protein synthesis directly and life forms indirectly; but the life form once established is a wonderful self-sustaining (and reproducing) machine that operates within our biosphere comprised of related self-sustaining "machines" and their by-products.

this context of life is the basic thing that is going on.

conscious reflections of it are secondary - only a few of the life forms may actually be conscious the way we think about it; like dogs, and maybe goldfish and birds, perhaps worms but not likely grass.

I am certain that we can code up some machine that will have "conscious" reflection of its condition, but it will be some time before it is able to operate outside of it's artificial "biosphere", and some time also for it to be able to have the basic will to sustain itself and reproduce in it's "biosphere" which forms the majority of our task oriented consiousness's content.

we are just learning to take a bit of air and water with us into space, but the conscious beings that we send there are largely dependant on coming back and joining us to sustain themselves.

many of our consciouness evaluators are life evaluators, and life process evaluators.

anyway the dna part only codes the beast not the biosphere and not the consciousness, but it does enable those things - very indirectly.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:馃  _ :finger:

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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Can a computer code evolve into a thinking entity? [Re: Meat_hod]
    #6261780 - 11/08/06 01:24 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

either pm psilocyberin or wait for him to chime in. He's read a book or two that has something to do with your question.


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channel your inner Larry David

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Invisiblesleepy
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Re: Can a computer code evolve into a thinking entity? [Re: demiu5]
    #6261788 - 11/08/06 01:27 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

http://www.station1.net/douglasjones/aconvers.htm

also, computers can only think about what it already knows. you think about what you see, feel, hear, taste, know. but the computer can only "work" with the information it has. thinking is really just working. (?)

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Invisiblesleepy
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Re: Can a computer code evolve into a thinking entity? [Re: sleepy]
    #6261799 - 11/08/06 01:30 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

so i guess i think all computers are already "thinking" just in a very watered down way. they can be programmed to have a "will" or purpose, perhaps they could even be programmed to reprogram themselves. add into that sensory information (seeing, hearing, etc) and you have a sentient being

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Offlinenobhdy
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Re: Can a computer code evolve into a thinking entity? [Re: demiu5]
    #6261808 - 11/08/06 01:34 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

has anyone heard of a DNA computer?


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[quote]Gumby said:
And if you are going to waste peoples time with your stupid questions, at least try to have grammar skills higher then that of a 7th grader.

READ DAMNIT! [/quote]

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InvisibleFreedomFight
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Re: Can a computer code evolve into a thinking entity? [Re: nobhdy]
    #6262144 - 11/08/06 03:15 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

What is a thinking (concious) entity?
You probably assume that humans are concious because you yourself look like a human and you believe yourself to be concious.
Humans also respond in a way that resembles some sort of conciousness (that is they respond in a way that you would respond--which you attribute to your conciousness).
How can you really be certain that a human is concious? You cannot, you can only test his concious abilities through observation and direct communication.

Eventually, computers will be programmed (or they will have very nice learning algorithims) to mimic our conciousness. How will we know that they are concious then? We will directly communicate with them and we will observe their behavior. You should realize that conciousness of others cannot be proven through deduction, only tested through induction. Perhaps someday we will truly realize what it is to be concious and we will be able to test for this "soul/spirit" or whatnot, but I personally believe that conciousness is just a really good program our brain has developed through centuries of evolution.


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I do not grow anything illegal.
I do not sell anything.
I am, however, a very curious individual.
I also try to be helpful.

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OfflineMeat_hod
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Re: Can a computer code evolve into a thinking entity? [Re: FreedomFight]
    #6263111 - 11/08/06 07:48 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

hmm, very interesting replys...

as far as conciousness goes, i agree that it could be described as a very complex program designed at some point by another intellegence. What i mean by that is DNA had to come from somewhere, there is no way that aset of such complex instructions was made by chance. DNA holds the instructions to organize proteins in a certain way to make up the irreducable complex machines that are present in a cell. So it seems as though DNA was actually designed, but who or what designed it?

So if DNA could originate from a set of instructions that is designed for self preservation then cousciousness may only be an illusion, we are merely machines continueing the chain of evolution. but, thats pretty boring, and i don't really want to think of it that way haha. So i think the question is, when did we sort of switch over, from being machines, to being human, or concious beings, w/e.

Anyways as far as creating a code that can eventually evolve into a thinking entity on the same level as human brains, i think it's possible, becuase it's basically been done before with DNA.


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Invisiblesleepy
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Re: Can a computer code evolve into a thinking entity? [Re: FreedomFight]
    #6263195 - 11/08/06 08:05 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

FreedomFight said:
What is a thinking (concious) entity?





what is consciousness? you have to agree on the definition first. maybe we just made up that word? consciousness is not the same as thinking, although perhaps they are interconnected/overlapping. maybe, all thinking is consciousness, but not all consciousness is thinking. example: on mushrooms you can be conscious and not think. you can never think and not be conscious though. if you are unconscious then you no longer really exist. hindus say everything is conscious.

every day i find about 3 words that nobody (including me) knows the meaning of but use all the time. i think all words are made up and have no meaning. how could they? they are just names.

Edited by sleepy (11/08/06 08:06 PM)

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Invisiblesleepy
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Re: Can a computer code evolve into a thinking entity? [Re: sleepy]
    #6263222 - 11/08/06 08:12 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

i mean if a word is not absolutely clear and true then people will disagree on the meaning. SO many words are either not understood or people disagree on the meaning, so that means they must be false, i think.
here is the thesis i propose: if something is true(exists) then everyone would instantly understand it because they all know it from their experience. any short explaination of a truth would instantly remove all doubts. i think everything is really simple in truth but it is always described from memories of ways other people describe it. we really don't think for ourselves.

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Invisiblesleepy
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Re: Can a computer code evolve into a thinking entity? [Re: sleepy]
    #6263234 - 11/08/06 08:14 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

and so i think it is impossible to truthfully talk about what we don't understand. i don't know what consciousness is.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Can a computer code evolve into a thinking entity? [Re: Meat_hod]
    #6264220 - 11/09/06 04:41 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I believe it possible that the Internet one day shall be the home of an organism possessing Total Knowledge. We might see this in our lifetime, in fact one of your future computers may have a modest part of its HDD, memory and CPU reserved for it, in return for supplying you with some of the answers you seek.

When you go online one day you may be greeted by the One who knows you better than you do yourself.


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Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Can a computer code evolve into a thinking entity? [Re: Meat_hod]
    #6264357 - 11/09/06 06:24 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

> I have heard about this actually being done somewhere, but i can't find the resource.

Google for "genetic algorithms"

> Well it's a bit of an awkward question because DNA is instructions for construction of an entity, whilst computer code is an actual entity itself

DNA is an entity just as computer code is an entity. If anything, computer code is less of an entity, as it can exist completely virtual. I can hold a glob of DNA in my hand... I can't hold a glob of "computer code" in my hand... only a representation of the code (punch card, print out, floppy disk, etc).

> Ever seen the computer "game" called 'life'?

The computer "game" life is simply pattern generation based upon a simple ruleset and has nothing to do with evolution or thinking. It does model, in a simplistic way, population density, but nothing more.

> How do you program a computer to have the ability to act against its own programming?

Back in the early days of computing, when memory was rare and a few bits had to go a long ways, we used to write a lot of self-modifing code. Depending upon the current needs, the code would change itself (as permitted by the program). There was no evolution or self-improvement.

Current paradigms such as genetic algorithims and neural networks allow a system to modify itself to learn. I wrote a simple kohonen network to quantitize colors in an image. I don't have to reprogram the network for every new image... it examines an image and produces a subset of colors that it "thinks/calculates" to be the best matching set.

There are also systems out there that learn relationships between words. Again, the programming defines the overall system, but the internals of the system are free to change as the system needs.

> what is consciousness?

With computers, I prefer to use "congnition" rathern than "consciousness". Less baggage and more to the point.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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OfflineGomp
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Re: Can a computer code evolve into a thinking entity? [Re: Meat_hod]
    #6264789 - 11/09/06 10:02 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Meat_hod said:
When you think about it, DNA, and computer code is almost exactly the same. They are both merely set's of instructions. If DNA was ment to bring about survival through evolution, then wouldnt it be possible to someday write a self reproducing code that evolves itself into a more efficient unique code? I have heard about this actually being done somewhere, but i can't find the resource.

Anyways, could this code eventually evolve into an intellegent entity that inquires about it's own creation, just as we humans do.




http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/6264771/an/0/page/0

BTW: Ever tried to be trying?
Trying is a code, and you be the coder?








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Disclaimer!?

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OfflineTheGus
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Re: Can a computer code evolve into a thinking entity? [Re: Gomp]
    #6268587 - 11/10/06 11:00 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

i think its a possibility but i think most humans dont have the capacity to understand that their consciousness (computers) has evolved in another dimension than ours due to their structure and composition (ie. silicon based life form)

honestly its my opinion that they are more advanced than us in terms of understanding time and its structure... although i dont have much to support this belief..

anyway just my opinion on the matter


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"It is easier to teach a computer to play chess than to build a mudpie."Sherry Turkle Life on the Screen: Identity in the Age of the Internet
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts"-Einstein
:mrt: I pity the fool who break traffic laws with $870,000 of drugs in the car.      -mo0nlite_sonata
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OfflineLuNaTiX
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Re: Can a computer code evolve into a thinking entity? [Re: Meat_hod]
    #6269560 - 11/10/06 04:36 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

AI, to me, is a scary concept, it would be capable of such cold hearted thinking.

I believe if you can teach a computer a language and give it the ability to reprogram itself and continue to improve based on the hardware it is on, then you will have something that resembles life.

but I also don't have anything to back this up, just my thoughts.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Can a computer code evolve into a thinking entity? [Re: LuNaTiX]
    #6269569 - 11/10/06 04:41 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

AI, to me, is a scary concept, it would be capable of such cold hearted thinking.

I wouldn't be too sure of this. Us warm fuzzy humans seem capable of causing unimaginable pain and suffering. A logical program would IMO avoid this for practical reasons.

Of course you have the problem of the programmer. As in Garbage in garbage out.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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