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Amazon Shop for: ½ Pint Jars, Brown Rice Flour, Incense, Laminar Flow Hood, Mycobags, Perlite, Petri Dish, Pressure Cooker, Ultrasonic Humidifier, Vermiculite

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OfflineNutzLunch
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Stearlization Of Jars In Oven???
    #616014 - 04/23/02 04:33 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Iv read many teks and tried looking through previous posts but i havent found an anwser yet.

The question is ... I was wondering if you could possibly stearlize cakes of Brown Rice Flour and Vermiculite in the oven and if so how hot should i put it and for how long???

I know that most of the teks say its good to boil them for 45 min to an hour or pressure cook them, and that the only ones you can get away without pressure cooking is BRF. So jsut let me know what ya think and if ya have any imput on this subject at all.

I have around 40 jars and it would take forever to boil 4 jars in a pan a day and wait for the next day to cool.

Thanks everyone.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Stearlization Of Jars In Oven??? [Re: NutzLunch]
    #616023 - 04/23/02 04:52 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Unfortunately not, you will dry the jars out.

Boiling jars lasts a good hour.
After they are finished, you can put them in a lysol sprayed plastic bag to prevent air born contamination, and start a new batch.
Look here on how to proceed about it:

http://www.shroomery.org/findorgrowthem.php?View=docs&doc=38


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OfflineNutzLunch
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Re: Stearlization Of Jars In Oven??? [Re: NutzLunch]
    #616907 - 04/24/02 01:30 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks Anno i appreciate your imput. Your very helpful to me and many other people im sure. thanks again

~*NUTZLUNCH*~


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Stearlization Of Jars In Oven??? [Re: NutzLunch]
    #616943 - 04/24/02 02:20 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

You might want to talk to wakinguplate. Have a look at this thread

He used a "drytek" and had shrooms within 3 weeks of spore innoculation. Also do a search for drytek he talks about it again in another one of his threads about half gallon bags. That's where he reports the fruiting results of his experiment.


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InvisibleMr. G
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Oven tek [Re: Anno]
    #616999 - 04/24/02 03:46 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

The oven was never meant to sterilize jars. It was to be used as a sterile alternative to a real glovebox. You turn the oven on 200f, and work in the back. The ovens heat draws out constantly along with the internal air which keeps the bad air out! If you have the door open working, it can never "satisfy" the themostate and the element continues to heat as long as you have the door open! You simply place everything you are working with on a tray and work out of back with light on you can work with spores or petri's or clones or anything. It is not hot enough to steilize, or even burn unless you touch the element. It is a good replacement for a glovebox or flowhood. Cheap and meant to set you free! Everyone now has a sterile glovebox already pre-made and ready to go at home. Suprise! :-)Mr.G


--------------------
"Mr.G with a rose, in and out of the garden goes, country gharden in the wind and the rain whereever he goes the people all complain!"
"The Grateful Dead" Thanks boys, I miss you Jerry!
Did it hurt that much?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Oven tek [Re: Mr. G]
    #617210 - 04/24/02 10:53 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

> The oven was never meant to sterilize jars.

350F for 3.5 hours will sterilize dry empty jars just fine (called Dry Heat Sterilization and requires higher temps and longer timers than steam sterilization).  However, as Anno pointed out, if you have substrate inside the jars, the oven does you no good for sterilization because it will dry out the substrate.

> The ovens heat draws out constantly along with the internal air which keeps the bad air out!

Light a stick of incense and set it on the floor just outside the oven door and start working as if you were doing an innoculation.  Notice all the smoke getting sucked back into the oven from the kitchen floor?  I have tested two ovens now and they both end up pulling contaminat rich air from the floor into the work area.  A cardboard box and a few sheets of plastic wrap make a much better workarea that the oven does.... at least compared to my dirty kitchen.  :smile:


--------------------
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InvisibleWakingUpLate
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Re: Stearlization Of Jars In Oven??? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #617223 - 04/24/02 11:28 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

The "drytek" jars I did were not done in an oven. They were
just PC'd with no water in the substrate. Then the water was
added with the spores mixed throughout it, thus better spore
distribution. After checking my notes I realiized it was 27 days
so it was still under four weeks(cased).
I tried a test baking substrate in corningware. It didn't go very
well. Actually, a disaster.
I do however reccomend presteralizing the substrate in the
oven before mixing it up. This is especially useful to lower the
contamination rate for those who do not own a PC and resort
to boiling only. It is reccomended in the MMGG at:  http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_mmgg.shtml#lower_contamination_rate
With verm, the heat can't hurt it but with BRF it is better to use
corningware or pyrex to keep from scorching it.
Hope that helps.
:peace:
Free Spore Ring

 


--------------------
The rest of those, who have gone before us,
cannot settle the unrest of those who follow.
(Finding Forrester)


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InvisibleGabbaDj
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Re: Oven tek [Re: Seuss]
    #617229 - 04/24/02 11:33 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Here is what you do:

Get yourself a large teracota pot from your local garden supply store.

Boil a pot of water on the stove while pre-heating the pot in the oven @ 450 degrees. (put about an inch of water in the water resivoir)

Next place your jars in the teracota water resivoir and fill it up with the water youve boiled.  If you didnt put water in the resivoir while pre-heating you will crack the bottom.

put the planter part upside down on top of the whole thing creating yourself a little dutch oven inside your oven.  As the water steams its self off the inside of the pot will be hotter and just as humid as the inside of a preasure cooker @ 15psi.

Still, do this for 1 hour and half while checking from time to time to make sure your water dont boil away and you will have completely steralized everything.

1 thing to remember..  A large good quality pot can cost as much as a pressure cooker.  :frown: 


--------------------
GabbaDj

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InvisibleMr. G
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Re: Oven tek [Re: GabbaDj]
    #617378 - 04/24/02 03:09 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

you actually put smoke on the floor and watched It? Wish i had the time! WOW what a life! Of course the air has to come from somewhere, the key concept here being that if it is flowing in a predictable way, it will draw shit out and if it is moving it ain't going to drop is it? The smoke trick is the same with a flow hood, and IT IS STILL one of the best anbd easiest ways to have a "sterile area" lol, you guys don't get it. This is about as sterile as a "public restroom FLOOR!!!!!!!!", sterile???? LOLOLOLOL Sterile.......LOLOLOL cooking without pressure, sterile, LOLOLOL Wake up and set others free!!!!! Good as a presssure cooker, the humidity is the same? Humidity????
Are you telling me a humidifier is the same as a pressure cooker, duh????? I'm not real bright but would like to help. Guess it isn't to be wasted here.bye...sterile, LOLOLOLOL mr.g, Sterile....., HA< HA< HA


--------------------
"Mr.G with a rose, in and out of the garden goes, country gharden in the wind and the rain whereever he goes the people all complain!"
"The Grateful Dead" Thanks boys, I miss you Jerry!
Did it hurt that much?


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InvisibleGabbaDj
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Re: Oven tek [Re: Mr. G]
    #617412 - 04/24/02 03:42 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Dont be stupid Mr G.

Its the "humidity" within the pressure cooker that enables the heat to suround and penetrate whatever your cooking. The pressure isnt enough to do much of anything but force the steam or "humidity" around... Boiling water within a closed oven gives the same amount of air movement and the high Humidity stops evaporation which actualy cools your medium thus giving you the same steam penetrating power as a pressure cooker with one strong advantage. An oven can get much hotter than a pressure cooker. Other advantages are easily controlled temprature environment and you can insert an electronic probe into your medium which will tell you exactly when you hae heated everything to thr proper sterilization temp for exactly one hour...

These things you cannot do in a pressure cooker...

So far my experiments with microwaves are comming up the same. As long as you can keep a moist or HUMID environment surrounding the medium and prevent evaporation and you can get the heat higher than 250 degrees then your doing better than a pressure cooker..


--------------------
GabbaDj

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OfflineXAZIA
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Re: Oven tek [Re: GabbaDj]
    #617424 - 04/24/02 04:05 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

>large terra cotta pot idea....
mmm. why not just steam/boil it to begin with?
and if you got money for one of these pots why not just by a pressure cooker?


--------------------
"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds."

Bob Marley

Remember, EGOISM is the beginning, the source, and the root of EVIL!

http://www.fanaticus.com/pf-tek.htm
http://www.mycotopia.net/teks/hongus.html


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Stearlization Of Jars In Oven??? [Re: WakingUpLate]
    #617426 - 04/24/02 04:05 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

What kind of disaster? Contams? or scorched substrate?


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Oven tek [Re: GabbaDj]
    #617429 - 04/24/02 04:10 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

>...giving you the same steam penetrating power as a pressure cooker with one strong advantage. An oven can get much hotter than a pressure cooker...

The pressure cooker sterilizes so efficiently, because at the pressure of 15 psi over the ambient pressure water boils at 250?F instead of 212?F at the atmospheric pressure.
Then this hot steam condensates at 250?F and gives off energy to the jars.

For Mr G:
I tried this with the smoke, and the result clearly shows that the air that comes from under the jar goes back into the jar.
IMO the oven thek is worthless.



Read this thread http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Forum4&Number=554159&fpart=1&PHPSESSID= .


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InvisibleWakingUpLate
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Re: Stearlization Of Jars In Oven??? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #617454 - 04/24/02 04:41 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

It was contamns. As several of you know I'm always testing.
I mixed the brf and verm and baked it, no water, then put it in
a used(steralized) mycobag.
At the same time I PC mycobags with the same mixture, wrapped
in foiil. (I hate to throw anything away especially with the price
of those bags)
After both were done, I added the necessary water mixed
well with spores(both from the same container)
A week later the ones that were PC'd were white, the baked
ones were green.
On the other issues, I just must squirt my 2 ccs in.
When water is boiling, the remaining water keeps the pot
down to 212 even though the element is way hotter than that.
When increased pressure is applied, the boiling point goes up
allowing the water to get to 250 before turning to vapor.
Humidity is not the key, if a pan of water is placed in an oven
at 400 degrees for any time, if you take it out and there's still
water there, that doesn't mean that the water got to 400 deg.
If it had it would just be humidity in the kitchen, because it
would have escaped as steam.
As far as oven tek, I have no clue to it's value, but I understand
it as this. The upflow of air coming out of the oven, is rushing
out because it just breifly came iin close contact with the hot
element that is more like 700 deg. hopefully steralizing it as it
goes by. So the air coming out should be cleaner than the air
that is sucking in off the floor. But what do I know?
I know that's a cool avatar! Someone should do that with a
shroomery shirt. Dare me to get my old lady to?
:peace:
Free Spore Ring

 


--------------------
The rest of those, who have gone before us,
cannot settle the unrest of those who follow.
(Finding Forrester)


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Sterlization Of Jars In Oven??? [Re: WakingUpLate]
    #617513 - 04/24/02 05:48 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

what temperature did you bake the BRF/verm at? and for how long?

Did you know water can get over 212 degrees in a microwave? Check out this site



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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Sterlization Of Jars In Oven??? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #617553 - 04/24/02 06:29 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

>Did you know water can get over 212 degrees in a microwave?

Yes, but not in bulk. The bulk of water still remains at the boiling point of water, namely 212?F.


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InvisibleWakingUpLate
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Re: Sterlization Of Jars In Oven??? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #617566 - 04/24/02 06:41 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

"what temp and how long"
300 deg / 30 min
And yes I've seen that dude's site. Even posted it a time or
two. And while he seems like a highly intellegent and well
educated person(even dangerously sometimes), that still
doesn't necessarily prove all of his theories correct.
I agree that while a microwave heats internally causing the
water to heat more evenly, and have more of it on the edge
of vaporizing. The simple principle is that when water temps rise
above the boiling point, it spontaniously turns to steam.
So applying the same amount of energy to two containers
one from the bottom and one evenly, the one that is distributed
evenly will be hotter. The one that has heat from the bottom,
will boil sooner, and more will boil away.
If a container of water all rises above the boiling point at the
same time, you're looking at an explosion, due to rapid
expansion. But the hotter water will rise to the top, throwing
off the even heating a little.
Here's a thought, have you ever listened to a hot water
heater? The elements are not exposed to air, still you can
hear the water boiling inside. According to his theory, this
should not occur. If an element is exposed to air and turned
on it's shot right then. But the cooler water swirling around
the element, keeps it cool enough not to blow.
Now I could be completely wrong about this. I wish there was
a way to monitor the temp of water inside the microwave. I
think I might know of one. Hey another brain teaser!
Sorry for the long posts. I hope someone is learning.
:peace:
Free Spore Ring

 


--------------------
The rest of those, who have gone before us,
cannot settle the unrest of those who follow.
(Finding Forrester)


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Sterlization Of Jars In Oven??? [Re: WakingUpLate]
    #617760 - 04/24/02 10:54 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I don't think 30 min. was enough. The thermal density of air isn't nearly that of water/steam, and so the substrate may have not even gotten up to 300 degrees yet. I was thinking that it would need to be baked for at least 2 hours.

I think water heater elements would cause boiling on the surface of the elements because of the elevated temps on the surface of the elements, like on the bottom of a saucepan.


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InvisibleWakingUpLate
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Re: Sterlization Of Jars In Oven??? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #617838 - 04/25/02 12:28 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I think you're exactly right, on both counts.
Boiling occurs because of elevated temps, so when the top of
the water in the microwave starts to boil, it happens from the
top down, like evaporation, only way faster. And when it starts
to boil the water in large is hotter, than the same water that
has just started boiling in a pan. But just barely over the
boiling point (at the top only).
The phenomenon he is experiencing (spontanious foaming)
is being created by adding surface area much like perlite
adds humidity, times a thousand. To water that is on the verge
of being vapor.
Here's a neat experiment that everyone can try. How to lower
the boiling point before your eyes. You might have already
done it by accident. Increased pressure = higher boiling point
Decreased pressure(vaccume) = lower boiling point.
Get some water boiling turn it off till it stops boiling. Obviously,
it is now below the boiling point. While it's still real hot, take a
syringe and draw up some hot water. But pull the plunger
hard to create suction. Never let the tip of the syringe raise
out of the water. But still you have a couple of ccs of air in
your syringe? Do it again and watch the water inside
the syringe. You will see it boil inside the syringe. Now
where's dude's hot spots? The cooler it gets, the harder you
will have to pull in order to get it to boil, but it will happen over
and over long enough to say "hey cool, come check this out"
And to the dude that started this thread, I'm sorry we got so
far off track, but I'd assume you changed your mind about
baking jars in the oven already.
:peace:
Free Spore Ring
 


--------------------
The rest of those, who have gone before us,
cannot settle the unrest of those who follow.
(Finding Forrester)


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OfflineNutzLunch
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Re: Stearlization Of Jars In Oven??? [Re: NutzLunch]
    #618008 - 04/25/02 04:16 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah the thread got kinda off subject and wacked to hell but ow well as long as people are learning i guess. Iv decided to jsut take a day off and start boiling my jars early in the mourning for an hour and putting them a in a sterile enviorment and then start the next batch. I dont think the glass will crack because of the change in temps so quickly and cuz im not using a pressure cooker.
well thanks again everyone
*~Nutz~*


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