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Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip?
    #5684198 -

If so explain why and some other ways of intensifying your trip.


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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: HUBSonDUBS]
    #5684207 -

no...are we talking shrooms or 'cid here??


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Nature is my God, Science is my religion.

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? *DELETED* [Re: HUBSonDUBS]
    #5684212 -

Post deleted by dr_gonz

Reason for deletion: f

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: HUBSonDUBS]
    #5684216 -

I don't know whether OJ does or not, but I like to do it anyway, just in case. I think that if you believe it will, it will.


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"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: nicechrisman]
    #5684226 -

I was thinkn along the lines that the OJ breaks down the shrooms faster.


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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: HUBSonDUBS]
    #5684236 -

drink mushroom tea, it will be more intese but not last quite as long


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Nature is my God, Science is my religion.

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: HUBSonDUBS]
    #6334599 -

on shrooms or acid??..i read somewhere that drinking OJ after droppin acid intensifies it cause of the chemicals or some shit..don't think it works for shrooms tho


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"Did you ever stop to think and then forget to start again?"

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: z_x_x_z]
    #6334647 -

dr_gonz said:
brush your teeth with colgate toothpaste while tripping. that shit FUCKS you up!!!!!


is this really true? :confused: because if so, i will consider trying it...if so, y does it "fuck you up" or i think you mean in other words intensify the trip?


--------------------
"Life lived in the absence of the psychedelic experience that primordial shamanism is based on is life trivialized, life denied, life enslaved to the ego."

"You teach the world how to treat you, by showing the world how you treat yourself."

A well developed sense of humor is far superior to any religion"

"Everything you could want and could be, you already have and are."

:peace: & :heart:

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: hoopershroomer]
    #6334766 -

shit your pants that fucks ya up


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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: hoopershroomer]
    #6334783 -

read:the lemon experience

from a little google searching, it appears the average pH of o.j. is between 3.5 and 4. so it would probably have the same effects of the cranberry juice used in the afformentioned article.

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: eyehavenoi]
    #6334790 -

yes vitamins help you trip
there was one time not too long ago I had a friends take some cacti. 5 hours later he wasnt feeling it so I told him to take vitamins
his trip kicked in shortly after and lasted the rest of the night

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: cpw1971]
    #6334797 -

i vote placebo


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Cloning the easy way with LC - newbie friendly pictorial tek

All your answers are here!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: creamcorn]
    #6334945 -

I have no scientific data to support one way or the other. All I can base on is my personal experience. The first 3 times I tripped, I took an eighth dried, and had great trips. The third time, I drank some OJ, and it was a little more intense and visual than the others. I've never had a true hallucination on shrooms, just the beauty aspect. My fourth time (last Tues), I straight munched 6g wet, and downed about a liter of OJ. I tripped my ass off. I will chase w/ OJ every time I eat straight shrooms from now on. IME, it does help.



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:gc:
Madtowntripper said:Or just give her a cloroform soaked rag and tell her it's ether!

Edited by MistaUNGA (12/05/06 12:23 AM)

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: MistaUNGA]
    #6335100 -

the hardest i ever tripped was when i took a good 6 vitamin c pills and a glass of OJ. my eyes rolled in the back of my head. THE second runner up is when i was on dob. my brother handed me some cranberry juice, not even thinking i kept pouring my self glasses of it and tripped complete balls. It resulted in me getting abducted by aliens. The next day i realized what i did and how stupid i was. Ive done the same amount of dob a few times and never got even near that close


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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: HUBSonDUBS]
    #6336347 -

apparently vitamin c makes you trip harder. im not too sure if this is the actual vitamin c in drinks like orange juice, or the actual acidic quality of the drink that break down the goods faster.

friends who have sucked on vitamin c tablets + acid say they trip a lot harder.

i say you try it out and let us know.

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: DrunkenAttempt]
    #6336407 -

DrunkenAttempt said:
drink mushroom tea, it will be more intese but not last quite as long


There is no physical basis for that. Placebo.

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6336603 -

As far as I am aware there have been no clinical studies to determine wether or not vitamin c makes you trip harder. I would guess, that if it is true, it probably has something to do with Vitamin C being a redox agent, meaning it is a antioxidant in some cases, and a oxidizer in others. So it probably alters they way the active chemicals are metabolized.

You could always try it. I mean really, whats the worst that could happen? It doesn't work?

There is I think a thread on the lemon tek method. Basically the same thing as ingesting OJ or vit C or some other fruit juice.

hmmm... here's a link to the lemon tek thread.... Lemon tek

It's hella long.... have fun.


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WAFFLEZZ!!!11!!!1!!!1!!!!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6336616 -

Chemiker said:
DrunkenAttempt said:
drink mushroom tea, it will be more intese but not last quite as long


There is no physical basis for that. Placebo.


yes there is. it's in liquid form. it absorbs faster to your brain thus hitting you faster/more intensely. and thus, because it's processed faster it doesn't last as long.


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https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6337021 -

Chemiker said:
DrunkenAttempt said:
drink mushroom tea, it will be more intese but not last quite as long


There is no physical basis for that. Placebo.



couldnt be more wrong


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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: DeathCompany]
    #6337101 -

did you ever try to trip 2 days in a row from lsd??
I read it uses the vitamins in your brain and therefore makes it harder to trip the next day because your vitamins are spent. If you take vitamins the next morning you will be good to go that night.
Kinda like an alcohol hangover. The alcohol robs the vitamins in your brain and to help get rid of a hangover you can take vitamins. I have done that many times and it does work. Also you can drink a few glasses of water before bed to help rehydrate you.

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Sunny]
    #6337200 -

mr_sunshine said:
So it probably alters they way the active chemicals are metabolized.


How can you say "probably" without any evidence? It could, sure. But probably? I don't see why you think that.

Edited by Chemiker (12/05/06 06:59 PM)

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6337210 -

if you had any experience with mushie tea, you would not be posting that.  :thumbdown:  :rolleyes:


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https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Syle]
    #6337215 -

Chemiker said:There is no physical basis for that. Placebo.
Quote:
DrunkenAttempt said:

yes there is. it's in liquid form. it absorbs faster [/QUOTE]


It's not going to be that much faster and maybe you're forgetting, but with 5HT2A hallucinogens like LSD and psilocin, the experience does not correlate well with metabolism of the drug. One study has shown that most LSD has *already* left the brain before the trip begins. Psilocin is probably similar. Thus, if the experience is due a downstream biochemical process and not just receptor binding (which is what is consistent with the data), then whether or not it is absorbed faster will hardly make any difference with respect to the intensity or duration of the experience.

Edited by Chemiker (12/05/06 05:16 PM)

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6337226 -

thats what antioxidants do. They alter they way a chemical is metalbolized.

from the wikipedia:

Quote:
Metabolism (from Greek μεταβολισμός "metabolismos") is the biochemical modification of chemical compounds in living organisms and cells.


Quote:
An antioxidant is a chemical that reduces the rate of particular oxidation reactions in a specific context, where oxidation reactions are chemical reactions that involve the transfer of electrons from a substance to an oxidising agent, this generally results in different chemicals to the original ones.


Thats why it's "probably". Actually, that is how vitamin C works. now how it specifically changes active chemicals I don't know.


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WAFFLEZZ!!!11!!!1!!!1!!!!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6337259 -

Quote:
Psilocin is probably similar.


probably? meh, eating/backtracking on your own words bub.

look, do you want an experienced trippers advice? or do you want to keep throwing out assumptions?


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https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: DeathCompany]
    #6337265 -

If I "couldn't be more wrong" then it should be easy for you to provide evidence of why I'm wrong. Please support what you're saying with evidence.

I have just made my reasoning clear above, but I'll go into more detail.

Whether or not you've "pre-extracted" the psiloc(yb)in into hot water before ingesting it will alter the absorption of the drug from your GI tract, but not to a huge degree (say +/- 30 minutes).

However, this does not mean that the experience will be more intense (this is absolutely ridiculous in itself - for many drugs, the half-lives are around 3 to 4 hours, so +/- 15 minutes in absorbtion time will not change the plasma kinetics).

Like I said above, with LSD (another 5HT-2A hallucinogen), the psychedelic effects are not perfectly correlated with 5HT-2A receptor binding. That it, LSD binds to 5HT-2A receptors quickly after ingestion and then is clearly from the receptors, *hours* before the peak. Presumably psilocin works in similar fashion. This indicates that the experience due to 5HT-2A hallucinogens is not merely due to receptor binduing, but is the result of a downstream biochemical process.
It is entirely possible (and indeed, seems to be the case) that drugs such as LSD and psilocin activate a 2ndary messenger after binding the receptor and it is some process activated by the messenger that is responsible for the experience. If this downstream process is something like inhibition of a specific enzyme due to upregulation of a 2ndary messenger as a result of 5HT2A binding, then a change in the rate of absorption from the GI tract will have essentially no effect on the duration of the trip.

In other words, you are assuming that there is a correlation between GI tract absorption kinetics and the biochemical kinetics of neurons in the brain. This isn't necessarily the case. The evidence actually suggests otherwise.

So, once again, would you like to explain why you think I'm wrong, or am I safe in assuming that your understanding of drugs is merely rudimentary and you don't have a leg to stand on?

DeathCompany said:
Chemiker said:
There is no physical basis for that. Placebo.



couldnt be more wrong


Edited by Chemiker (12/05/06 05:12 PM)

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: cpw1971]
    #6337273 -

cpw1971 said:
I read it uses the vitamins in your brain and therefore makes it harder to trip the next day because your vitamins are spent.


Nobody knows exactly why tolerance to LSD develops the way it does.

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Syle]
    #6337282 -

Do not presume to tell me what I have or have not done.


Syle said:
if you had any experience with mushie tea, you would not be posting that.  :thumbdown:  :rolleyes:


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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6337298 -

Chemiker said:
Do not presume to tell me what I have or have not done.


Syle said:
if you had any experience with mushie tea, you would not be posting that.  :thumbdown:  :rolleyes:




i can deduce from your posts that you are just trying to be the different perspective here.

look, you have tried and true methods out there from countless...countless testimonies that tea hits faster (which, can mean harder/more intense) and doesn't last as long.

if you want to keep arguing and bringing up lame terms and examples then by all means do it. but you are in the vast minority my friend.


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https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Sunny]
    #6337306 -

mr_sunshine said:
thats what antioxidants do. They alter they way a chemical is metalbolized.


Do they alter how EVERY chemical you ingest is metabolized? No.

Quote:
An antioxidant is a chemical that reduces the rate of particular oxidation reactions in a specific context


You normally have vitamin C in your body and the amount you have in you is regulated (if you don't believe, eat a bunch of vitamin C and report back). A deficiency of it will alter how some chemicals are metabolized, yes, but the difference between eating some with a dose, slightly before a dose, or just getting enough to stay healthy may not have any effect on psilocin. Is there any evidence that vitamin C is involved in the metabolism of psilocin?

Furthermore, like I already pointed out, psiloc(yb)in is probably like LSD in that it is taken to the brain first, where it binds 5HT2A and *then* gets metabolized. If the psychedelic experience is due to a consequence of receptor binding, then any metabolic process following binding will likely have no effect on the experience.

Quote:
Thats why it's "probably".


That is not convincing and I assure you that what you've quoted doesn't make it likely that vitamin C is at all involved in psiloc(yb)in metabolism.

Edited by Chemiker (12/05/06 07:01 PM)

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Syle]
    #6337323 -

Uhh, excuse me but I am also an experienced tripper. Don't give me such a condescending attitude and don't assume that you have a remote fucking clue as to what drugs I have or have not taken and under what conditions. Your assumption disgusts me.

"Probably" yes. Want me to back it up with references? Sure, I will, but it doesn't take genius to realize that two substances with such similar effects, structure, and receptor binding probably also have a similar mechanism of action. So, if you really want some references, let me know.

BTW, these are not assumptions. What I'm saying is based on solid factual evidence. What others are saying is based on physical models that are so simple that they ignore the evidence. You guys are making far more assumptions that I am.

Syle said:
Quote:
Psilocin is probably similar.


probably? meh, eating/backtracking on your own words bub.

look, do you want an experienced trippers advice? or do you want to keep throwing out assumptions?


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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6337343 -

the point is, mushies and LSD are different. like apples and oranges. stop comparing them, that is where your argument fails because you, LIKE US, have to resort to terms like "probably" and "presumably" to link mushrooms to the LSD effects/causes.

you are wrong according to practically everyone on this board; experience > your lacking proof.


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https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Syle]
    #6337423 -

Syle said:
i can deduce from your posts that you are just trying to be the different perspective here.


No. Don't tell me what I think. I genuinely believe what I'm saying and your "deduction" is wrong. I believe that since this is a harm reduction forum aimed at providing accurate information that I should point out inaccuracies when I believe I see them. I believe I see some very flawed thinking in this thread. You don't have to believe me, but don't go telling me what I think. It's offensive, first of all, and it's counter-productive because it is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand.

Obviously I will only give the different perspective if I only post when I believe I see a mistake.

Quote:
look, you have tried and true methods out there from countless...countless testimonies that tea hits faster (which, can mean harder/more intense) and doesn't last as long.


What happens when you take a psychedelic drug and you have altered expectations about the experience (because the mode of delivery is different)? Is there another explanation for why people have a different experience? Yes. Absolutely. Is there anything particularly wrong I find with the notion that it could hit faster? Yes. Absolutely. It contradicts the bulk of the evidence. Do self-reported anecdotes have any wide statistical meaning? No, not really. These reports mean very little. Until you can give me a credible set of data confirming what you're saying, I can't accept it.

Quote:
if you want to keep arguing and bringing up lame terms and examples then by all means do it. but you are in the vast minority my friend.


Lame terms? Is this how you think you're supposed to argue? First, let's try to discredit the other person by attacking their character and then let's discredit them further by criticizing their terminology.

Whether or not my opinion is in the minority or majority is not relevant to whether or not I'm right (yet another logically fallacy you've tried to use to discredit me . . . instead of sticking to the facts).

Also, my examples are direcftly relevant to what you're talking about. If you want to ignore them, then I will consider you willfully ignorant. Now please stick to the issue.

You obviously can't defend what you're saying because you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

And, you know, what exactly is the point of making a value judgement like "lame terms"? Huh? The words I use aren't cool enough for you?

Edited by Chemiker (12/05/06 06:02 PM)

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6337432 -

:rolleyes:

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6337439 -

Chemiker said:
Syle said:
i can deduce from your posts that you are just trying to be the different perspective here.


No.  Don't tell me what I think.  I genuinely believe what I'm saying and your "deduction" is wrong.  I believe that since this is a harm reduction forum aimed at providing accurate information that I should point out inaccuracies when I believe I see them.  I believe I see some very flawed thinking in this thread.  You don't have to believe me, but don't go telling me what I think.  It's offensive, first of all, and it's counter-productive because it is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand. 

Obviously I will only give the different perspective if I only post when I believe I see a mistake. 

[QUOTE]look, you have tried and true methods out there from countless...countless testimonies that tea hits faster (which, can mean harder/more intense) and doesn't last as long.[/QUOTE]

What happens when you take a psychedelic drug and you have altered expectations about the experience (because the mode of delivery is different)?  Is there another explanation for why people have a different experience? Yes.  Absolutely.  Is there anything particularly wrong I find with the notion that it could hit faster?  Yes.  Absolutely.  It contradicts the bulk of the evidence.  Do self-reported anecdotes have any wide statistical meaning?  No, not really.  These reports mean very little.  Until you can give me a credible set of data confirming what you're saying, I can't accept it. 

Quote:
if you want to keep arguing and bringing up lame terms and examples then by all means do it. but you are in the vast minority my friend.


Lame terms?  Is this how you think you're supposed to argue?  First, let's try to discredit the other person by attacking their character and then let's discredit them further by criticizing their terminology.

Whether or not my opinion is in the minority or majority is not relevant to whether or not I'm right (yet another logically fallacy you've tried to use to discredit me . . . instead of sticking to the facts). 

Also, my examples are direcftly relevant to what you're talking about.  If you want to ignore them, then I will consider you willfully ignorant.  Now please stick to the issue. 

You obviously can't defend what you're saying because you don't have a clue what you're talking about. 

And, you know, what exactly is the point of making a value judgement like "lame terms"?  Huh?  The words I use aren't cool enough for you?


then consider me ignorant, but trust me, you are wrong  :smile:


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6337460 -

look, you are still not presenting the fact I WANT, that is needed to correlate mushroom chemistry directly to LSD chemistry. so, until then, i am gonna dick around with you all i want, because anyone, who has any experience with mushroom tea AT ALL, and is reading this thread, knows i am right, whether it's placebo or not, is irrelevent. if it acts faster and harder, and lasts shorter, there is nothing you can say or do that will convince anyone otherwise.


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6337506 -

whoa. before you skewer me for pointing out what vitamin c does, remember that not everyone here is biochemist. I was simply allowing some methodology for how the process might work. Also note that I didn't say it did or didn't work, just that vitamin C is a redox agent, and if it did work, it would work through the metabolic process. I ALSO REDIRECTED TO THE LEMON TEK THREAD. where I'm sure all of this has been discussed prior.

The information I stated neither supports nor disproves anything, they are simply facts. I wasn't trying to support or disprove anything, just state facts.

Now that your massive frontal lobe has doused us all with it's knowledge of the brains various receptor systems, could you please shut up and stop being a dick? Even if everything you stated was 100% correct, which, were all sure it is, nobody here is happy with the way you have belittled them. Fuck, I'll disagree with you now just because your being an ass.

*FURTHERMORE* you need to cool out man. Maybe you should take some diazepam, it works by enhancing the activity of the GABA-A Receptors.
When these receptors open cloride channels, it causes the hyperpolarization of neurons. Basically it tickles your amygdala, causing you, to cool out.


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WAFFLEZZ!!!11!!!1!!!1!!!!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Syle]
    #6337508 -

Syle said:
the point is, mushies and LSD are different. like apples and oranges. stop comparing them,


First of all, in another thread, I already said that I didn't think I could tell the difference between the two, so I don't see them as inherently different.

Nonetheless, they are different, that's correct, but they can still be compared. Your objection is not relevant because the basis by which I am comparing is totally reasonable. They are both indole backbone hallucinogens that bind to 5HT2A receptors in human beings and produce a psychedelic experience. Their chemical structures are easily similar enough that I can extend findings from LSD to say that it "probably" applies to psiloc(yb)in.

[And the fact that you're putting quotes around "probably" to indicate that I'm not 100% sure if I'm right about these things, is ridiculous. Science uses something known as inductive logic, so I can't say with 100% confidence that my claim is accurate, just like I can't say with 100% confidence that gravity is holding the couches down in my basement right now. I have to look at the evidence and make a judgement call on whether or not my inductions are reasonable and they are and they can be backed up with evidence if you like. Also, what you need to get clear is that what I have done is offer an alternative explanation for events, which is based on more fact and less assumptions that what others have come up with. For example, the speculation on vitamin C affecting the experience is essentially baseless, until you can find more evidence of an interaction. So, while I've provided evidence for an argument that may or may not be right (though I certainly think it is) all you have do is try to discredit and all the others have done is provide explanations based on a little tiny backbone of evidence]

Quote:
that is where your argument fails because you, LIKE US, have to resort to terms like "probably" and "presumably" to link mushrooms to the LSD effects/causes.


No matter how much evidence any one of us accumulates, it's always only going to add up to "probably" and "presumably." You're never going to prove it 100%, so what you have to do is gather enough evidence that you feel confident your answer is right. My argument is based on sound physical theories and empirical facts. The alternative explanations here are based on the most basic and minimal models you could have. Clearly, if I have more evidence that you, even though I still have to use words like "probably", we should be more confident that I'm right.

Also, my argument doesn't fail at all (that's ridiculous also). In fact, the whole reason I use words like "probably" and "presumably" is because I'm aware that when working on unknown scientific problems, you have to use inductive logic, which never gives 100% definite answers. Anyway, what I'm saying is far more consistent with reality than "because it's in liquid form it gets absorbed faster."

Quote:
you are wrong according to practically everyone on this board


First of all, you shouldn't speak for everyone or practically everyone. Secondly, I simply don't believe your. Finally, it's hardly relevant.

Hey and let's say that you are right. The facts that I've presented are true, so wouldn't you be at all interested in trying to come up with a working model that incorporates ALL of the facts. If you can demonstrate to me that shroom tea does result in a shorter and more intense experience than eating mushrooms (and that this is due to absorbtion in the GI tracts), then I'd love to try explaining the facts as I'm aware of them. It's a challenge, but if you'd rather just ignore facts when it's convenient, then I'll still be happy to consider you willfully ignorant.

experience > your lacking proof.


Edited by Chemiker (12/05/06 06:31 PM)

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6337520 -

Chemiker said:
Syle said:
i can deduce from your posts that you are just trying to be the different perspective here.


No. Don't tell me what I think. I genuinely believe what I'm saying and your "deduction" is wrong. I believe that since this is a harm reduction forum aimed at providing accurate information that I should point out inaccuracies when I believe I see them. I believe I see some very flawed thinking in this thread. You don't have to believe me, but don't go telling me what I think. It's offensive, first of all, and it's counter-productive because it is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand.

Obviously I will only give the different perspective if I only post when I believe I see a mistake.

Quote:
look, you have tried and true methods out there from countless...countless testimonies that tea hits faster (which, can mean harder/more intense) and doesn't last as long.


What happens when you take a psychedelic drug and you have altered expectations about the experience (because the mode of delivery is different)? Is there another explanation for why people have a different experience? Yes. Absolutely. Is there anything particularly wrong I find with the notion that it could hit faster? Yes. Absolutely. It contradicts the bulk of the evidence. Do self-reported anecdotes have any wide statistical meaning? No, not really. These reports mean very little. Until you can give me a credible set of data confirming what you're saying, I can't accept it.

Quote:
if you want to keep arguing and bringing up lame terms and examples then by all means do it. but you are in the vast minority my friend.


Lame terms? Is this how you think you're supposed to argue? First, let's try to discredit the other person by attacking their character and then let's discredit them further by criticizing their terminology.

Whether or not my opinion is in the minority or majority is not relevant to whether or not I'm right (yet another logically fallacy you've tried to use to discredit me . . . instead of sticking to the facts).

Also, my examples are direcftly relevant to what you're talking about. If you want to ignore them, then I will consider you willfully ignorant. Now please stick to the issue.

You obviously can't defend what you're saying because you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

And, you know, what exactly is the point of making a value judgement like "lame terms"? Huh? The words I use aren't cool enough for you?


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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Syle]
    #6337668 -

Syle said:
look, you are still not presenting the fact I WANT, that is needed to correlate mushroom chemistry directly to LSD chemistry.


Ok, but look, you're making a big assumption which isn't remotely justifiable in your "its in the water phase so it gets absorbed and processed faster." The assumption is that metabolic processing is directly linked to the drug experience. Can you back this up at all?

It is very reasonable to expect that LSD chemistry would be similar to psilocybin chemistry (if you can't see the parallels, then you shouldn't be assuming that I'm wrong). Let's go over the reasons:

Both have an indole nucleus and are substituted at the 3 and four positions. Both LSD and psiloc(yb)in have pi orbitals extending from the indole-4 position to the substituent on that position, whereas the substituent in both cases is an ethanamine.

The bulk of it, obviously, has to do with the fact that both have the inole backbone. Would you like me to do a thorough review of indole chemistry or not? They'll have a lot of similar properties, such as planarity and conformational rigidity over this backbone. Rich in pi electron density (sorry for all the "lame" terms, but I don't know how else to describe the similarities).

And honestly, can you really tell me that after spending time here you haven't heard of TIHKAL, which compares LSD and psiloc(yb)in. A lot of people here express the conventional wisdom that the chemical similarities between LSD and psilocin (and other tryptamines) are obviously responsible for their overlapping effects. I shouldn't have to go into detail about indole, pi electrons, conformation, etc. and receptor binding. I can, because I know about all of it, but it's going to require that you read a lot of "lame terms." If you can accept the conventional wisdom of the group on some issues, then why do you seem to be selectively ignoring that wisdom on other issues.

The paper from J. Med. Chem. is excellent and describes the similarities in receptor binding, which is how bromo-dragonfly was designed (the authors studies the similarities in LSD and psilocybin binding and had a computer predict a drug that would bind the same receptor more effectively - their prediction was correct and bromo-dragonfly was born). The authors start their paper by saying:
"A major focus of our research for a number of years has been to understand the structure-activity relationship (SAR) of classical hallucinogens and their derivatives , the pharmacological action of which is believed to be mediated primarily by agonist activity at the serotonin 5-HT2A receptor. In particular, we have sought to understand the relationship between the modes of binding of the hallucinogens containing an indole nucleus, including LSD and psilocybin . . ."

The article from Neuropsychopharmacology says that LSD, psilocin and many phenethylamines bind 5HT-2A in similar fashion and this is believed responsible for their effects (note the diversity in compounds binding the receptor, but psilocin and LSD are pretty similar in structure).

Note that cross-tolerance occurs between LSD and psilocybin, which is another, very strong indication of similar receptor binding (this is basically indisputable evidence that both substances share almost exactly the same mechanism of action). This is from David E. Nichols's article.

- Glennon, R A. Arylalkylamine Drugs of Abuse: An Overview of Drug Discrimination Studies. Pharmacology, Biochemistry & Behaviour. 64, pp. 251 - 256. (1999)

- Parker, M A. et al. A Novel (Benzodifuranyl)aminoalkane with Extremely Potent Activity at the 5HT-2A Receptor. Journal of Medicinal Chemistry. 41, pp. 5148 - 5149. (1998)

- Aghajanian, G K. and Marek, G J. Serotonin-Glutamate Interactions: A New Target for Antipsychotic Drugs. Neuropsychopharmacology. 21, pp. S122 - S133. (1999)

- Nichols, D E. Hallucinogens. Pharmacology & Therapeutics. 101, pp. 131 - 181. (2004)

Do you want more? Anything you're not clear on?

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6337994 -

i know what i have experienced bub. just leave it at that, you're not going to convince me otherwise.

i am not ignoring the information, i am merely relying on my (and pretty much every tea-tripper out there) experiences.

why don't you just leave it at that?


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6338272 -

Not trying to piss you off but no matter how much scientific information you post in the world is going to convince anyone. it doesn't matter what science says because anyone who has done it says otherwise. I don' think every single person that has done mushroom tea was experiencing a placebo effect, it just goes against odds. I know i probably wont convince you but maybe you should try giving some to your friends, telling them that it takes a long time to kick in, wont be as strong and lasts much longer. See what happens. Sorry about the rude comment earlier


--------------------

Edited by DeathCompany (12/05/06 09:53 PM)

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Syle]
    #6338635 -

Syle said:
i know what i have experienced bub. just leave it at that, you're not going to convince me otherwise.


I am not trying to convince you that you have experienced something other than you have experienced. In a previous post you said that you don't care if it is placebo or not. I think it is placebo and you don't care, so fine (hence, I guess I'll take that to mean that you agree with me that this was placebo, since you don't care if it was placebo or not).

I don't see how you can misunderstand me so fundamentally that you think I'm trying to tell you, "No you didn't experience X, you experienced Y."

Quote:
i am not ignoring the information, i am merely relying on my (and pretty much every tea-tripper out there) experiences.


Well, perhaps you'd like to help try coming up with a model that incorporates all of the facts.

BTW, your claims about me being in the "vast minority" seem quite erroneous. There are a few posts at the start of this thread with users saying that they think this is a placebo effect.

Quote:
why don't you just leave it at that?


I put with your long string of insults. I provided you with the evidence you wanted. Now, I have to explain my position to you (which should really clear by this point) because you don't seem to understand what I'm saying.

If you're happy to say that all of the information seems consistent with placebo, then I'll leave it at that. If not, then I'll ask you to explain why and if you don't want to explain why, then I guess we'll have to leave it at that.

Edited by Chemiker (12/05/06 10:17 PM)

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: DeathCompany]
    #6338687 -

DeathCompany said:
Not trying to piss you off but no matter how much scientific information you post in the world is going to convince anyone.


I think you should speak for yourself instead of saying that everyone is close-minded and refuses to consider facts.

Quote:
it doesn't matter what science says because anyone who has done it says otherwise.


No. Science is also based on experience (and if you do become an experimental scientist, you'll see that "facts" are not just things we wrote down in books). Experimental science directly involves experiencing things.

Based on how oblique this particular post of yours is, I am not sure if you are clear as to what I'm trying to say.

I believe you when you say that if you drink mushy tea, you have a shorter and more intense experience. I am saying that I believe that this is due to a placebo effect and not a result of the metabolism of the drug. If you feel like ignoring science on this one, then I don't see what I am supposed to do.

Quote:
I don' think every single person that has done mushroom tea was experiencing a placebo effect


Many people who drink mushroom tea do not report a significant difference in duration or intensity of the effects.

Quote:
it just goes against odds.


And I suppose you have data to support what the odds are of observing specific placebo effects under specific conditions with a specific psychedelic drug?

Quote:
I know i probably wont convince you


You should try using facts consistently, instead of essentially saying, "Well, I'll look at the evidence that you present but you can't convince me that you're right. Now, here's my evidence." I've already said in a previous post that I am very open to trying to explain both an increased intesity (w/ shorter duration) and all of the pharmacological data.

However, at this point, I'm far from convinced that mushy tea universally results in a significantly shorter and more intense experience than other similar modes of ingestion. I don't consider self-reporting very valid, but even in this thread it looks like we have about a 50/50 placebo : non-placebo ratio.

Quote:
maybe you should try giving some to your friends


I have used mushroom tea before (and with others). Objectively, we have never noticed any difference between tea and eating the shrooms fresh, or dry (and hell, chewing on shrooms could result in faster absorbtion - did you ever consider that? is psiloc(yb)in absorbed through the mouth? Maybe.

I have also eaten fresh shrooms, dry shrooms, shrooms whipped up in a blender with orange juice, etc. I have noticed a difference in duration. With intensity, obviously I cannot control all of the variables, but I never noticed a consistently increased intensity when it came to tea.

Edited by Chemiker (12/05/06 10:23 PM)

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6338719 -

Chemiker said:
Syle said:
i know what i have experienced bub. just leave it at that, you're not going to convince me otherwise.


I am not trying to convince you that you have experienced something other than you have experienced. In a previous post you said that you don't care if it is placebo or not. I think it is placebo and you don't care, so fine (hence, I guess I'll take that to mean that you agree with me that this was placebo, since you don't care if it was placebo or not).

I don't see how you can misunderstand me so fundamentally that you think I'm trying to tell you, "No you didn't experience X, you experienced Y."

Quote:
i am not ignoring the information, i am merely relying on my (and pretty much every tea-tripper out there) experiences.


Well, perhaps you'd like to help try coming up with a model that incorporates all of the facts.

BTW, your claims about me being in the "vast minority" seem quite erroneous. There are a few posts at the start of this thread with users saying that they think this is a placebo effect.

Quote:
why don't you just leave it at that?


I put with your long string of insults. I provided you with the evidence you wanted. Now, I have to explain my position to you (which should really clear by this point) because you don't seem to understand what I'm saying.

If you're happy to say that all of the information seems consistent with placebo, then I'll leave it at that. If not, then I'll ask you to explain why and if you don't want to explain why, then I guess we'll have to leave it at that.


not placebo because the first time i did tea mush, it was fast, and i had no idea it hit faster nor lasted shorter, i took it for the stomach comforting. but after i researched it i found out that many other people experienced a quick come up and a short overall trip.

just shut up dude and leave it, isn't it obvious your not going to change my mind? lordy...


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: DeathCompany]
    #6338728 -

This thread made me laugh my ass off. I love how people argue so much about vitamins and citric acid and scientific information. Heres my simple take on the situation...

you want a more intense trip? eat better/more shrooms. I don't think it matters either way you eat the damn things. I also don't buy into any vitamin shit. (Don't think this is a negative comment towards anyone but this what I have learned from eating shrooms all different ways) Any juice you drink with shrooms is the acid breaking the mushrooms down fast thus releasing the goods faster. Your stomach contains acid that would break it down normally but lets say citric acid also helps. Some people said it before but IMHO vitamins/trip enhancers are placebo.

The only good psychedelic enhancer i have found is some good buds. But whatever you or anyone else finds to make their trip better, keep on doing it if the trip is better in the end.

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6338729 -

Quote:
I have used mushroom tea with my friends. Objectively, we have never noticed any difference between tea and eating the shrooms fresh, or dry (and hell, chewing on shrooms could result in faster absorbtion - did you ever consider that? is psiloc(yb)in absorbed through the mouth? Maybe.

]

for fucks sake. there are studies that show that chewing mushies in your mouth for 10 min makes it hit faster. so, then why wouldn't the mushies in liquid form which is straightly absorbed into your system be faster?


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: daytripper05]
    #6338741 -

daytripper05 said:
This thread made me laugh my ass off. I love how people argue so much about vitamins and citric acid and scientific information. Heres my simple take on the situation...

you want a more intense trip? eat better/more shrooms. I don't think it matters either way you eat the damn things. I also don't buy into any vitamin shit. (Don't think this is a negative comment towards anyone but this what I have learned from eating shrooms all different ways) Any juice you drink with shrooms is the acid breaking the mushrooms down fast thus releasing the goods faster. Your stomach contains acid that would break it down normally but lets say citric acid also helps. Some people said it before but IMHO vitamins/trip enhancers are placebo.

The only good psychedelic enhancer i have found is some good buds. But whatever you or anyone else finds to make their trip better, keep on doing it if the trip is better in the end.


yes, but vitamins/enhancers are different than tea/liquid form psilo. hell no am i arguing vitamin C or any of that other shit.


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Syle]
    #6338750 -

I have held mushrooms in my mouth chewed up and in my lower lip like dip(20 min on 2 occassions) and honestly think you can chew them up just as well and swallow and get the same effect. In fact I know you will get the same effect.

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: daytripper05]
    #6338755 -

daytripper05 said:
I have held mushrooms in my mouth chewed up and in my lower lip like dip(20 min on 2 occassions) and honestly think you can chew them up just as well and swallow and get the same effect. In fact I know you will get the same effect.


wow, no offense meant, but we are really starting to split hairs here now aren't we?


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Syle]
    #6338763 -

Syle said:
daytripper05 said:
I have held mushrooms in my mouth chewed up and in my lower lip like dip(20 min on 2 occassions) and honestly think you can chew them up just as well and swallow and get the same effect. In fact I know you will get the same effect.


wow, no offense meant, but we are really starting to split hairs here now aren't we?


what i mean by that is, i stated and agreed that chewing mush in your mouth for long periods of time has a stronger effect earlier on your system as tea would.

BUT, Chem is saying that it doesn't matter whatever way you ingest...

although, in that last post of his, he went on to say taht chewing in your mouth for 10+ min might have an effect...


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Syle]
    #6338764 -

edit: flaming and personal attacks are funny as fuck. Especially when about Chemiker.

Edited by Edgekrusher (12/06/06 04:44 PM)

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Syle]
    #6338770 -

Syle said:
daytripper05 said:
This thread made me laugh my ass off. I love how people argue so much about vitamins and citric acid and scientific information. Heres my simple take on the situation...

you want a more intense trip? eat better/more shrooms. I don't think it matters either way you eat the damn things. I also don't buy into any vitamin shit. (Don't think this is a negative comment towards anyone but this what I have learned from eating shrooms all different ways) Any juice you drink with shrooms is the acid breaking the mushrooms down fast thus releasing the goods faster. Your stomach contains acid that would break it down normally but lets say citric acid also helps. Some people said it before but IMHO vitamins/trip enhancers are placebo.

The only good psychedelic enhancer i have found is some good buds. But whatever you or anyone else finds to make their trip better, keep on doing it if the trip is better in the end.


yes, but vitamins/enhancers are different than tea/liquid form psilo. hell no am i arguing vitamin C or any of that other shit.



I agree. I said nothing about tea. Tea is my favorite way of ingestion. When I say eat I guess I also mean drink too. I was just commenting on all the vitamin bs. I like to sip on the tea over 30-45 minute time to simulate the digestion process of eating dry shrooms.

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: daytripper05]
    #6338773 -

daytripper05 said:
Syle said:
daytripper05 said:
This thread made me laugh my ass off. I love how people argue so much about vitamins and citric acid and scientific information. Heres my simple take on the situation...

you want a more intense trip? eat better/more shrooms. I don't think it matters either way you eat the damn things. I also don't buy into any vitamin shit. (Don't think this is a negative comment towards anyone but this what I have learned from eating shrooms all different ways) Any juice you drink with shrooms is the acid breaking the mushrooms down fast thus releasing the goods faster. Your stomach contains acid that would break it down normally but lets say citric acid also helps. Some people said it before but IMHO vitamins/trip enhancers are placebo.

The only good psychedelic enhancer i have found is some good buds. But whatever you or anyone else finds to make their trip better, keep on doing it if the trip is better in the end.


yes, but vitamins/enhancers are different than tea/liquid form psilo. hell no am i arguing vitamin C or any of that other shit.



I agree. I said nothing about tea. Tea is my favorite way of ingestion. When I say eat I guess I also mean drink too. I was just commenting on all the vitamin bs. I like to sip on the tea over 30-45 minute time to simulate the digestion process of eating dry shrooms.


oh right on, i mis-stated/misunderstood you.


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Syle]
    #6338787 -

Syle said:
daytripper05 said:
Syle said:
daytripper05 said:
This thread made me laugh my ass off. I love how people argue so much about vitamins and citric acid and scientific information. Heres my simple take on the situation...

you want a more intense trip? eat better/more shrooms. I don't think it matters either way you eat the damn things. I also don't buy into any vitamin shit. (Don't think this is a negative comment towards anyone but this what I have learned from eating shrooms all different ways) Any juice you drink with shrooms is the acid breaking the mushrooms down fast thus releasing the goods faster. Your stomach contains acid that would break it down normally but lets say citric acid also helps. Some people said it before but IMHO vitamins/trip enhancers are placebo.

The only good psychedelic enhancer i have found is some good buds. But whatever you or anyone else finds to make their trip better, keep on doing it if the trip is better in the end.


yes, but vitamins/enhancers are different than tea/liquid form psilo. hell no am i arguing vitamin C or any of that other shit.



I agree. I said nothing about tea. Tea is my favorite way of ingestion. When I say eat I guess I also mean drink too. I was just commenting on all the vitamin bs. I like to sip on the tea over 30-45 minute time to simulate the digestion process of eating dry shrooms.


oh right on, i mis-stated/misunderstood you.


Quoting people looked like fun.........

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Syle]
    #6338799 -

Yeah I have to admit I didn't read but maybe 2 or 3 1/2 words chem said. I just wanted to shoot the shit for a minute.

Bottom line.... I think we all love mushrooms.

Syle said:
daytripper05 said:
I have held mushrooms in my mouth chewed up and in my lower lip like dip(20 min on 2 occassions) and honestly think you can chew them up just as well and swallow and get the same effect. In fact I know you will get the same effect.


wow, no offense meant, but we are really starting to split hairs here now aren't we?


When I said this I thought you were refering to this making the trip more intense. Yeah I think it might increase the come on time by 5-10 minutes but who is worth the taste and for god sakes all those nasty shroom particles in your teeth? I don't think so and choose tea as my choice of ingestion.

Also when I first posted I didn't see all the stuff you had to say. I chimed in the middle of several posts and wast selective in my reading. Sorry for trying to discredit you and after closer examination of the subject I agree with what you have been saying.

Edited by daytripper05 (12/05/06 11:00 PM)

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: daytripper05]
    #6338842 -

agreed.


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Syle]
    #6338901 -

I can think of an explanation, but it's not specific yet.

Psychedelics obviously alter mental activity and one of the ways they seem to do so is with a general catalytic effect. I think I once read that psychedelics could even been seen as "general catalysts for certain mental processes." Take it with a grain of salt. I think that psychedelics can amplify placebo responses (or at least certain placebo responses). We are, after all, talking about mind altering drugs and my hypothesis merely requires that the drug can enhance a placebo response.

I've found that some psychedelic users do find this kind of thing offensive, because they feel it is equivalent to being told that they're stupid. This is not the case. Everyone makes mistakes and not thinking through the dynamics of psiloc(yb)in absorbtion, metabolism, etc. is hardly something that makes you stupid. I think that this could be an excellent illustration of how powerfully a psychedelic can enhance a placebo response.

So, though what I'm suggesting does have a role for the drug within it, the response is not only due to the drug (it is necessary for the drug to be present to have such a powerful response but it is not sufficient: the other cues - i.e. the "set" - must also be present.

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6338955 -

chemiker:

Don't PM me. This conversation is over with.


--------------------
WAFFLEZZ!!!11!!!1!!!1!!!!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Sunny]
    #6339056 -

mr_sunshine said:
chemiker:

Don't PM me. This conversation is over with.


:rofl2:  :rofl2:  :rofl2: :popcorn:

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: daytripper05]
    #6339429 -

daytripper05 said:
who is worth the taste and for god sakes all those nasty shroom particles in your teeth?


I think shrooms taste great.

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Syle]
    #6339441 -

Syle said:
for fucks sake. there are studies that show that chewing mushies in your mouth for 10 min makes it hit faster.


I find that difficult to swallow. Please cite those studies.

Quote:
so, then why wouldn't the mushies in liquid form which is straightly absorbed into your system be faster?


Because absorbtion through the gastrointestinal tract would be slower than direct absorbtion through the mouth. Tea would result in slower, more spread out (and possibly less efficient) absorbtion of psilo(cy)bin.

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Syle]
    #6339445 -

Syle said:
not placebo because the first time i did tea mush,


So what? That's one sample. You're taking the variation from one experience and trying to generalize to millions of experiences?

Quote:
just shut up dude and leave it, isn't it obvious your not going to change my mind? lordy...


Don't tell me what to do. If I see what I think is total nonsense, then I'm going to point out that I think it's nonsense. I'm not doing this for your benefit, since you have already admitted to being close-minded (yet you've already reversed yourself from saying you don't care if it is placebo to now claiming that it isn't).

Also, it's not just me who thinks that it's a placebo response, but you seem to be insisting that I'm about the only person mushroom user who thinks this. Yet, we've got others in this thread who agree with me and you refuse to acknowledge that your response is simply not universal.

It still baffles me how you can just be ignore contradictory information and say something as silly as "you'll never convince me." So, apparently facts mean nothing to you and you have no desire to come to a consistent understanding of reality?

Edited by Chemiker (12/06/06 04:25 AM)

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Syle]
    #6339513 -

Syle said:
BUT, Chem is saying that it doesn't matter whatever way you ingest...



OMG.

I am not saying that, at all.

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: HUBSonDUBS]
    #6339608 -

HUBSonDUBS said:
Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? If so explain why and some other ways of intensifying your trip.


I just couldnt bother to read all of the arguing posts. But to answer the original poster. Yes, there are some tried and true ways to enhance the trip (as have previously been discussed on this board).

1.
if you ingest some blackcurrant juice (or anything with high blackcurrant percentage) roughtly one or two hours before your trip. that will intensify and prolong the trip. i usually buy a one litre carton of blaccurrant juice, drink half about 90 minutes before, and half just as the trip is coming up.

2.
the other way is as mentioned using lemon or lime juice(not orange its not acidic enough). so you grind the dried shrooms into a powder, and mix that into half a glass of freshly squeezed lime/lemon juice (make sure its really sour). leave it sitting in the glass for about 20 minutes. then drink (you can mix in some oj at this stage if its to sour for your taste or if you have a sensitive stomach). this will preconvert the actives and thus make your trip come on faster, peak higher and last shorter.

happy tripping

mz


--------------------
Mindzpores words of wisdom:
"If you think something is foolproof, you just haven't met proper fools".

Wiccan_Seeker said:
"It is better to adjust to become a better listener than to keep on cranking up the volume".

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Mindzpore]
    #6339646 -

When eating mushrooms as a 'whole', it's not just the metabolism of the psilocybin that plays a factor, there is also the role of having to break down all of that fiber in the mushrooms to actually get at the psilocybin.

Now, lets say you had a 'pure' extract of psilocybin, chances are there would not be much difference between taking it down as a tea, or eating it straight up - as it is already readily available for the system to digest.

But, when eating them as a whole mushroom and not chewing them very well - all of that fiber around the 'good stuff' needs to be digested/broken down until the body is able to get at the psilocybin.

When making a tea, or powdering the mushrooms, or even just chewing them *VERY* well, your stomach has less work to do breaking down all the extra fiber, and thus it hits your system / enters it faster.

Its like if you want an E pill to hit faster/harder - chew it up a bit before swallowing. Easier to digest, more 'surface area' of the substance is accessible, and will hit/come on faster.

Edited by kaniz (12/06/06 07:18 AM)

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: kaniz]
    #6339675 -

which is why i suggest one grinds the shrooms to a powder before mixing with the juice. grinding certainly produces finer particles than chewing.

grinding can be done in many ways (depending on the state of the shrooms). but an ordinary household mixer will usually do the trick.


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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: creamcorn]
    #6339741 -

creamcorn said:
i vote placebo


def with creamcorn on this one, i have had awesome trips with and without vitamin c.


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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Mindzpore]
    #6340098 -

Regarding blackcurrant, I can't find anything about its effects on humans as a MAOI. Do you have anything?

The "lemon effect", if it is indeed valid, cannot be explained by the pH of the drink.

Tryptophan's amino group has a pKa around 9.39. With two methyl substituents donating electron density into the nitrogen in psiloc(yb)in, the amino group will be more basic (quite a bit more, but let's be generous to the explanation and assume a pKa of 9.5 for the psilo(cy)bin amino group).

Even at physiological pH (7.4), the amino group is going to be 99.2% protonated. At neutral pH (7.0), the amino group is going to be 99.7% protonated. Dropping the pH down to 2 can only protonate a very small fraction of the overall psiloc(yb)in, assuming we're starting from neutral.

pH simply cannot explain the effect and a number of people in that thread seem to have pointed that out already. The alternative explanations basically suffer from the same flaw as the shroom tea method because they ignore the fact that based on what is known about the psiloc(yb)in mechanism of action. Specifically, a more rapid rapid absorbtion would not be likely to cause a more rapid or intense trip, unless that difference were significantly large (i.e. absorbtion over 2 minutes as opposed to an hour). The placebo effect is still consistent with the observations, however.

Mindzpore said:
1.
if you ingest some blackcurrant juice (or anything with high blackcurrant percentage)

2.
the other way is as mentioned using lemon or lime juice(not orange its not acidic enough). mz


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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6340119 -

In all honesty, I find that trying too hard to enhance/prolong/intensify any trip is counter productive. Just eat the fucking things, trip and be done.

I simply put all the shrooms in a blender with some OJ... Does it do anything? Who cares... It tastes great, pre-chews for me and I trip balls... If you want to "intesify" it, use more shrooms.

Remember, the more complex you make something, the more you can fuck up everything and end up throwing up or something. If you eat shrooms, you trip... If you eat MORE, you trip harder... simple enough.

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: RoosterCogburn]
    #6340149 -

I have taken mushies many times as a tea and just ate them straight. I couldnt tell you the tea come on any faster though.
But... back in the 80's I used to get the microdots "lsd" and if I were to swallow them It would take a full hour for the effects. I alsso used to take them and pop them with a lighter bottom and snort them.... In this case they came on in 15 minutes. guaranteed every time.

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: cpw1971]
    #6340193 -

Quote:
alsso used to take them and pop them with a lighter bottom and snort them.


That's hard fuckin' core.... :rockon:

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: RoosterCogburn]
    #6340304 -

PH/Vitamin C/etc aside.

Think of it this way.

- Drop a sugar cube into a drink, swirl it around a bit.
- Drop a a teaspoon of sugar into a drink, swirl it around a bit.

The teaspoon will dissolve MUCH faster than the cube.

IMO, I think the main 'benefit' of the lemon juice experiment comes from people simply grinding up the mushrooms excessively prior to soaking / drinking / eating them / whatever. There psi is extracted into the water, making it more readily available to be absorbed by the system. the stomach does not need to break down all of the fibrous material in the mushroom to get at the good stuff.

Or, when eating them when finely ground up / powdered, the surface area is much greater - and it's easier for the stomach to break down.

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: kaniz]
    #6340398 -

kaniz said:
PH/Vitamin C/etc aside.

Think of it this way.

- Drop a sugar cube into a drink, swirl it around a bit.
- Drop a a teaspoon of sugar into a drink, swirl it around a bit.

The teaspoon will dissolve MUCH faster than the cube.

IMO, I think the main 'benefit' of the lemon juice experiment comes from people simply grinding up the mushrooms excessively prior to soaking / drinking / eating them / whatever. There psi is extracted into the water, making it more readily available to be absorbed by the system. the stomach does not need to break down all of the fibrous material in the mushroom to get at the good stuff.

Or, when eating them when finely ground up / powdered, the surface area is much greater - and it's easier for the stomach to break down.


exactly what i have been arguing, you just said it much better than i could.


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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Syle]
    #6340418 -

my thoughts exactly too... hence my vote for placebo. :smile:

i notice a major difference in eating mushrooms whole versus grinding & capping, or grinding and making a tea (where the ground ones hit faster, hit harder, and are shorter lived)... notice no difference when grinding and adding to lemon juice and doing it like a shooter though, versus the tea or caps... other than the sourness :smile:

it might differ somewhat for fresh mushrooms, chopping them up and quickly placing them into an liquid high in antioxidants might prevent oxidation of the psilosin... we know that ascorbic acid on fresh fruits prevents blueing and even reverses blueing, restoring the original color, that might be an indication it "protects" the psilosin content in some way

but since most of the psilosin content is gone by the time you're dealing with dry mushrooms... i just dont see how it could matter

but whatever, even if it is a placebo effect, there's still some usefulness there.  a more intense trip is a more intense trip, period.  no matter if there's a scientific explanation or if its all in your head. :smile:


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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: kaniz]
    #6340767 -

It still does not explain a difference in the intensity of duration of the experience.

kaniz said:
The teaspoon will dissolve MUCH faster than the cube.


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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: creamcorn]
    #6340773 -

Syle, why don't you understand that there is more to the action of a drug than simply having it absorbed by your gastrointestinal tract?

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6340856 -

I also don't think that humans can digest chitin. If that's the case, digestion of most mushroom fibres would not be necessary for psilocin extraction.

Even still, increasing the absorbtion rate of the substance would not result in an more intense or less prolonged trip. The duration of the trip is not dependent on the metabolism of psilocin.

Why must you only acknowledge models that support what you think is true?

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6341003 -

This is folly

Mushroom tea provides a quicker and slightly more intense trip.

This is true. Years of experience prove it. Anyone who has experience with both can tell you. You can also tell yourself by trying it. This argument is totally pointless.


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HELP!!!!!!!!!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6341060 -

Chemiker said:
It still does not explain a difference in the intensity of duration of the experience.

kaniz said:
The teaspoon will dissolve MUCH faster than the cube.




Your body is not spending time breaking down the fiber to get at 'the good stuff', thus its readily available to start being processed / digested right away.

Increased surface area = increased availability
Increased availability = faster absorption
faster absorption = faster onset

I'm going to really generalize here and say : Lets take a unit of 30. This holds no real specific reference to anything, its just a generalization.

You take your dose of mushrooms, give it a chew or two, and swallow it. As your stomach needs to digest and break down the actual mushroom fiber that contains Psilocybin, the Psilocybin is less readily available. So, lets say, per minute - 1 unit of Psilocybin becomes available for your system to digest. So, by 15 mins, you only have 15 units of Psilocybin in your system.

When its in a tea, or soaked in lemon juice, or chewed up really well, or ground to a powder. There is more Psilocybin readily available to enter your system at a faster rate. Instead of trickling in at like, 1 per unit of time, it may come in at 2 or even 3. So by 15 mins, it may all already be in your system, or atleast a much larger amount, thus the faster onset.

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: kaniz]
    #6341233 -

Everybody lay off Chemiker. He has problems. He just sent me a PM explaining how he's "retarded" and extremely "lucky" to have passed through school.

I'm not lying either..... No flaming here.

But I'm with Everyone else. Shutup and stop PMing me.

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Edgekrusher]
    #6341310 -

:lolz0rz:  :lolz0rz:  :foreheadslap:  :cuckoo:

Man I can't believe this thread is still going. chemiker what's the deal???? there is absolutly nothing to argue about. a few people already said it perfectly and I highly doubt your retarted by your posts above, just ignorant.

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: daytripper05]
    #6341378 -

He claims Aspberger's syndrome as his disability. This is what google had to say:

"Asperger’s Syndrome is a newly recognized neurological disorder. For many people with Asperger’s, intellectual functioning is not a problem. They are able to meet such mental challenges as instantly calculating square roots, learning foreign languages in amazingly short periods of time or calculating dates in history with incredible accuracy.

Those afflicted with this syndrome have difficulty understanding what those around them think and feel. As a result of this, they often behave inappropriately in social situations and appear unkind... do no fit in with peers.. their practical abilities are lacking.. these children may become very interested in one subject.. obsessive"

Had never heard of it, but damn does it make a lot of sense. He'd be a good guy to keep around for math problems and such....... Conversation, not so much.

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: HUBSonDUBS]
    #6341384 -

This thread has been closed.

Reason:
Locking before this thread degenerates any further than it already has.

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