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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Sunny]
    #6337200 -

mr_sunshine said:
So it probably alters they way the active chemicals are metabolized.


How can you say "probably" without any evidence? It could, sure. But probably? I don't see why you think that.

Edited by Chemiker (12/05/06 06:59 PM)

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6337210 -

if you had any experience with mushie tea, you would not be posting that.  :thumbdown:  :rolleyes:


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Syle]
    #6337215 -

Chemiker said:There is no physical basis for that. Placebo.
Quote:
DrunkenAttempt said:

yes there is. it's in liquid form. it absorbs faster [/QUOTE]


It's not going to be that much faster and maybe you're forgetting, but with 5HT2A hallucinogens like LSD and psilocin, the experience does not correlate well with metabolism of the drug. One study has shown that most LSD has *already* left the brain before the trip begins. Psilocin is probably similar. Thus, if the experience is due a downstream biochemical process and not just receptor binding (which is what is consistent with the data), then whether or not it is absorbed faster will hardly make any difference with respect to the intensity or duration of the experience.

Edited by Chemiker (12/05/06 05:16 PM)

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6337226 -

thats what antioxidants do. They alter they way a chemical is metalbolized.

from the wikipedia:

Quote:
Metabolism (from Greek μεταβολισμός "metabolismos") is the biochemical modification of chemical compounds in living organisms and cells.


Quote:
An antioxidant is a chemical that reduces the rate of particular oxidation reactions in a specific context, where oxidation reactions are chemical reactions that involve the transfer of electrons from a substance to an oxidising agent, this generally results in different chemicals to the original ones.


Thats why it's "probably". Actually, that is how vitamin C works. now how it specifically changes active chemicals I don't know.


--------------------
WAFFLEZZ!!!11!!!1!!!1!!!!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6337259 -

Quote:
Psilocin is probably similar.


probably? meh, eating/backtracking on your own words bub.

look, do you want an experienced trippers advice? or do you want to keep throwing out assumptions?


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: DeathCompany]
    #6337265 -

If I "couldn't be more wrong" then it should be easy for you to provide evidence of why I'm wrong. Please support what you're saying with evidence.

I have just made my reasoning clear above, but I'll go into more detail.

Whether or not you've "pre-extracted" the psiloc(yb)in into hot water before ingesting it will alter the absorption of the drug from your GI tract, but not to a huge degree (say +/- 30 minutes).

However, this does not mean that the experience will be more intense (this is absolutely ridiculous in itself - for many drugs, the half-lives are around 3 to 4 hours, so +/- 15 minutes in absorbtion time will not change the plasma kinetics).

Like I said above, with LSD (another 5HT-2A hallucinogen), the psychedelic effects are not perfectly correlated with 5HT-2A receptor binding. That it, LSD binds to 5HT-2A receptors quickly after ingestion and then is clearly from the receptors, *hours* before the peak. Presumably psilocin works in similar fashion. This indicates that the experience due to 5HT-2A hallucinogens is not merely due to receptor binduing, but is the result of a downstream biochemical process.
It is entirely possible (and indeed, seems to be the case) that drugs such as LSD and psilocin activate a 2ndary messenger after binding the receptor and it is some process activated by the messenger that is responsible for the experience. If this downstream process is something like inhibition of a specific enzyme due to upregulation of a 2ndary messenger as a result of 5HT2A binding, then a change in the rate of absorption from the GI tract will have essentially no effect on the duration of the trip.

In other words, you are assuming that there is a correlation between GI tract absorption kinetics and the biochemical kinetics of neurons in the brain. This isn't necessarily the case. The evidence actually suggests otherwise.

So, once again, would you like to explain why you think I'm wrong, or am I safe in assuming that your understanding of drugs is merely rudimentary and you don't have a leg to stand on?

DeathCompany said:
Chemiker said:
There is no physical basis for that. Placebo.



couldnt be more wrong


Edited by Chemiker (12/05/06 05:12 PM)

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: cpw1971]
    #6337273 -

cpw1971 said:
I read it uses the vitamins in your brain and therefore makes it harder to trip the next day because your vitamins are spent.


Nobody knows exactly why tolerance to LSD develops the way it does.

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Syle]
    #6337282 -

Do not presume to tell me what I have or have not done.


Syle said:
if you had any experience with mushie tea, you would not be posting that.  :thumbdown:  :rolleyes:


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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6337298 -

Chemiker said:
Do not presume to tell me what I have or have not done.


Syle said:
if you had any experience with mushie tea, you would not be posting that.  :thumbdown:  :rolleyes:




i can deduce from your posts that you are just trying to be the different perspective here.

look, you have tried and true methods out there from countless...countless testimonies that tea hits faster (which, can mean harder/more intense) and doesn't last as long.

if you want to keep arguing and bringing up lame terms and examples then by all means do it. but you are in the vast minority my friend.


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Sunny]
    #6337306 -

mr_sunshine said:
thats what antioxidants do. They alter they way a chemical is metalbolized.


Do they alter how EVERY chemical you ingest is metabolized? No.

Quote:
An antioxidant is a chemical that reduces the rate of particular oxidation reactions in a specific context


You normally have vitamin C in your body and the amount you have in you is regulated (if you don't believe, eat a bunch of vitamin C and report back). A deficiency of it will alter how some chemicals are metabolized, yes, but the difference between eating some with a dose, slightly before a dose, or just getting enough to stay healthy may not have any effect on psilocin. Is there any evidence that vitamin C is involved in the metabolism of psilocin?

Furthermore, like I already pointed out, psiloc(yb)in is probably like LSD in that it is taken to the brain first, where it binds 5HT2A and *then* gets metabolized. If the psychedelic experience is due to a consequence of receptor binding, then any metabolic process following binding will likely have no effect on the experience.

Quote:
Thats why it's "probably".


That is not convincing and I assure you that what you've quoted doesn't make it likely that vitamin C is at all involved in psiloc(yb)in metabolism.

Edited by Chemiker (12/05/06 07:01 PM)

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Syle]
    #6337323 -

Uhh, excuse me but I am also an experienced tripper. Don't give me such a condescending attitude and don't assume that you have a remote fucking clue as to what drugs I have or have not taken and under what conditions. Your assumption disgusts me.

"Probably" yes. Want me to back it up with references? Sure, I will, but it doesn't take genius to realize that two substances with such similar effects, structure, and receptor binding probably also have a similar mechanism of action. So, if you really want some references, let me know.

BTW, these are not assumptions. What I'm saying is based on solid factual evidence. What others are saying is based on physical models that are so simple that they ignore the evidence. You guys are making far more assumptions that I am.

Syle said:
Quote:
Psilocin is probably similar.


probably? meh, eating/backtracking on your own words bub.

look, do you want an experienced trippers advice? or do you want to keep throwing out assumptions?


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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6337343 -

the point is, mushies and LSD are different. like apples and oranges. stop comparing them, that is where your argument fails because you, LIKE US, have to resort to terms like "probably" and "presumably" to link mushrooms to the LSD effects/causes.

you are wrong according to practically everyone on this board; experience > your lacking proof.


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Syle]
    #6337423 -

Syle said:
i can deduce from your posts that you are just trying to be the different perspective here.


No. Don't tell me what I think. I genuinely believe what I'm saying and your "deduction" is wrong. I believe that since this is a harm reduction forum aimed at providing accurate information that I should point out inaccuracies when I believe I see them. I believe I see some very flawed thinking in this thread. You don't have to believe me, but don't go telling me what I think. It's offensive, first of all, and it's counter-productive because it is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand.

Obviously I will only give the different perspective if I only post when I believe I see a mistake.

Quote:
look, you have tried and true methods out there from countless...countless testimonies that tea hits faster (which, can mean harder/more intense) and doesn't last as long.


What happens when you take a psychedelic drug and you have altered expectations about the experience (because the mode of delivery is different)? Is there another explanation for why people have a different experience? Yes. Absolutely. Is there anything particularly wrong I find with the notion that it could hit faster? Yes. Absolutely. It contradicts the bulk of the evidence. Do self-reported anecdotes have any wide statistical meaning? No, not really. These reports mean very little. Until you can give me a credible set of data confirming what you're saying, I can't accept it.

Quote:
if you want to keep arguing and bringing up lame terms and examples then by all means do it. but you are in the vast minority my friend.


Lame terms? Is this how you think you're supposed to argue? First, let's try to discredit the other person by attacking their character and then let's discredit them further by criticizing their terminology.

Whether or not my opinion is in the minority or majority is not relevant to whether or not I'm right (yet another logically fallacy you've tried to use to discredit me . . . instead of sticking to the facts).

Also, my examples are direcftly relevant to what you're talking about. If you want to ignore them, then I will consider you willfully ignorant. Now please stick to the issue.

You obviously can't defend what you're saying because you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

And, you know, what exactly is the point of making a value judgement like "lame terms"? Huh? The words I use aren't cool enough for you?

Edited by Chemiker (12/05/06 06:02 PM)

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6337432 -

:rolleyes:

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6337439 -

Chemiker said:
Syle said:
i can deduce from your posts that you are just trying to be the different perspective here.


No.  Don't tell me what I think.  I genuinely believe what I'm saying and your "deduction" is wrong.  I believe that since this is a harm reduction forum aimed at providing accurate information that I should point out inaccuracies when I believe I see them.  I believe I see some very flawed thinking in this thread.  You don't have to believe me, but don't go telling me what I think.  It's offensive, first of all, and it's counter-productive because it is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand. 

Obviously I will only give the different perspective if I only post when I believe I see a mistake. 

[QUOTE]look, you have tried and true methods out there from countless...countless testimonies that tea hits faster (which, can mean harder/more intense) and doesn't last as long.[/QUOTE]

What happens when you take a psychedelic drug and you have altered expectations about the experience (because the mode of delivery is different)?  Is there another explanation for why people have a different experience? Yes.  Absolutely.  Is there anything particularly wrong I find with the notion that it could hit faster?  Yes.  Absolutely.  It contradicts the bulk of the evidence.  Do self-reported anecdotes have any wide statistical meaning?  No, not really.  These reports mean very little.  Until you can give me a credible set of data confirming what you're saying, I can't accept it. 

Quote:
if you want to keep arguing and bringing up lame terms and examples then by all means do it. but you are in the vast minority my friend.


Lame terms?  Is this how you think you're supposed to argue?  First, let's try to discredit the other person by attacking their character and then let's discredit them further by criticizing their terminology.

Whether or not my opinion is in the minority or majority is not relevant to whether or not I'm right (yet another logically fallacy you've tried to use to discredit me . . . instead of sticking to the facts). 

Also, my examples are direcftly relevant to what you're talking about.  If you want to ignore them, then I will consider you willfully ignorant.  Now please stick to the issue. 

You obviously can't defend what you're saying because you don't have a clue what you're talking about. 

And, you know, what exactly is the point of making a value judgement like "lame terms"?  Huh?  The words I use aren't cool enough for you?


then consider me ignorant, but trust me, you are wrong  :smile:


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6337460 -

look, you are still not presenting the fact I WANT, that is needed to correlate mushroom chemistry directly to LSD chemistry. so, until then, i am gonna dick around with you all i want, because anyone, who has any experience with mushroom tea AT ALL, and is reading this thread, knows i am right, whether it's placebo or not, is irrelevent. if it acts faster and harder, and lasts shorter, there is nothing you can say or do that will convince anyone otherwise.


--------------------
https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6337506 -

whoa. before you skewer me for pointing out what vitamin c does, remember that not everyone here is biochemist. I was simply allowing some methodology for how the process might work. Also note that I didn't say it did or didn't work, just that vitamin C is a redox agent, and if it did work, it would work through the metabolic process. I ALSO REDIRECTED TO THE LEMON TEK THREAD. where I'm sure all of this has been discussed prior.

The information I stated neither supports nor disproves anything, they are simply facts. I wasn't trying to support or disprove anything, just state facts.

Now that your massive frontal lobe has doused us all with it's knowledge of the brains various receptor systems, could you please shut up and stop being a dick? Even if everything you stated was 100% correct, which, were all sure it is, nobody here is happy with the way you have belittled them. Fuck, I'll disagree with you now just because your being an ass.

*FURTHERMORE* you need to cool out man. Maybe you should take some diazepam, it works by enhancing the activity of the GABA-A Receptors.
When these receptors open cloride channels, it causes the hyperpolarization of neurons. Basically it tickles your amygdala, causing you, to cool out.


--------------------
WAFFLEZZ!!!11!!!1!!!1!!!!

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Syle]
    #6337508 -

Syle said:
the point is, mushies and LSD are different. like apples and oranges. stop comparing them,


First of all, in another thread, I already said that I didn't think I could tell the difference between the two, so I don't see them as inherently different.

Nonetheless, they are different, that's correct, but they can still be compared. Your objection is not relevant because the basis by which I am comparing is totally reasonable. They are both indole backbone hallucinogens that bind to 5HT2A receptors in human beings and produce a psychedelic experience. Their chemical structures are easily similar enough that I can extend findings from LSD to say that it "probably" applies to psiloc(yb)in.

[And the fact that you're putting quotes around "probably" to indicate that I'm not 100% sure if I'm right about these things, is ridiculous. Science uses something known as inductive logic, so I can't say with 100% confidence that my claim is accurate, just like I can't say with 100% confidence that gravity is holding the couches down in my basement right now. I have to look at the evidence and make a judgement call on whether or not my inductions are reasonable and they are and they can be backed up with evidence if you like. Also, what you need to get clear is that what I have done is offer an alternative explanation for events, which is based on more fact and less assumptions that what others have come up with. For example, the speculation on vitamin C affecting the experience is essentially baseless, until you can find more evidence of an interaction. So, while I've provided evidence for an argument that may or may not be right (though I certainly think it is) all you have do is try to discredit and all the others have done is provide explanations based on a little tiny backbone of evidence]

Quote:
that is where your argument fails because you, LIKE US, have to resort to terms like "probably" and "presumably" to link mushrooms to the LSD effects/causes.


No matter how much evidence any one of us accumulates, it's always only going to add up to "probably" and "presumably." You're never going to prove it 100%, so what you have to do is gather enough evidence that you feel confident your answer is right. My argument is based on sound physical theories and empirical facts. The alternative explanations here are based on the most basic and minimal models you could have. Clearly, if I have more evidence that you, even though I still have to use words like "probably", we should be more confident that I'm right.

Also, my argument doesn't fail at all (that's ridiculous also). In fact, the whole reason I use words like "probably" and "presumably" is because I'm aware that when working on unknown scientific problems, you have to use inductive logic, which never gives 100% definite answers. Anyway, what I'm saying is far more consistent with reality than "because it's in liquid form it gets absorbed faster."

Quote:
you are wrong according to practically everyone on this board


First of all, you shouldn't speak for everyone or practically everyone. Secondly, I simply don't believe your. Finally, it's hardly relevant.

Hey and let's say that you are right. The facts that I've presented are true, so wouldn't you be at all interested in trying to come up with a working model that incorporates ALL of the facts. If you can demonstrate to me that shroom tea does result in a shorter and more intense experience than eating mushrooms (and that this is due to absorbtion in the GI tracts), then I'd love to try explaining the facts as I'm aware of them. It's a challenge, but if you'd rather just ignore facts when it's convenient, then I'll still be happy to consider you willfully ignorant.

experience > your lacking proof.


Edited by Chemiker (12/05/06 06:31 PM)

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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Chemiker]
    #6337520 -

Chemiker said:
Syle said:
i can deduce from your posts that you are just trying to be the different perspective here.


No. Don't tell me what I think. I genuinely believe what I'm saying and your "deduction" is wrong. I believe that since this is a harm reduction forum aimed at providing accurate information that I should point out inaccuracies when I believe I see them. I believe I see some very flawed thinking in this thread. You don't have to believe me, but don't go telling me what I think. It's offensive, first of all, and it's counter-productive because it is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand.

Obviously I will only give the different perspective if I only post when I believe I see a mistake.

Quote:
look, you have tried and true methods out there from countless...countless testimonies that tea hits faster (which, can mean harder/more intense) and doesn't last as long.


What happens when you take a psychedelic drug and you have altered expectations about the experience (because the mode of delivery is different)? Is there another explanation for why people have a different experience? Yes. Absolutely. Is there anything particularly wrong I find with the notion that it could hit faster? Yes. Absolutely. It contradicts the bulk of the evidence. Do self-reported anecdotes have any wide statistical meaning? No, not really. These reports mean very little. Until you can give me a credible set of data confirming what you're saying, I can't accept it.

Quote:
if you want to keep arguing and bringing up lame terms and examples then by all means do it. but you are in the vast minority my friend.


Lame terms? Is this how you think you're supposed to argue? First, let's try to discredit the other person by attacking their character and then let's discredit them further by criticizing their terminology.

Whether or not my opinion is in the minority or majority is not relevant to whether or not I'm right (yet another logically fallacy you've tried to use to discredit me . . . instead of sticking to the facts).

Also, my examples are direcftly relevant to what you're talking about. If you want to ignore them, then I will consider you willfully ignorant. Now please stick to the issue.

You obviously can't defend what you're saying because you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

And, you know, what exactly is the point of making a value judgement like "lame terms"? Huh? The words I use aren't cool enough for you?


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Re: Does taking a multi-vitamin or orange juice intensify a trip? [Re: Syle]
    #6337668 -

Syle said:
look, you are still not presenting the fact I WANT, that is needed to correlate mushroom chemistry directly to LSD chemistry.


Ok, but look, you're making a big assumption which isn't remotely justifiable in your "its in the water phase so it gets absorbed and processed faster." The assumption is that metabolic processing is directly linked to the drug experience. Can you back this up at all?

It is very reasonable to expect that LSD chemistry would be similar to psilocybin chemistry (if you can't see the parallels, then you shouldn't be assuming that I'm wrong). Let's go over the reasons:

Both have an indole nucleus and are substituted at the 3 and four positions. Both LSD and psiloc(yb)in have pi orbitals extending from the indole-4 position to the substituent on that position, whereas the substituent in both cases is an ethanamine.

The bulk of it, obviously, has to do with the fact that both have the inole backbone. Would you like me to do a thorough review of indole chemistry or not? They'll have a lot of similar properties, such as planarity and conformational rigidity over this backbone. Rich in pi electron density (sorry for all the "lame" terms, but I don't know how else to describe the similarities).

And honestly, can you really tell me that after spending time here you haven't heard of TIHKAL, which compares LSD and psiloc(yb)in. A lot of people here express the conventional wisdom that the chemical similarities between LSD and psilocin (and other tryptamines) are obviously responsible for their overlapping effects. I shouldn't have to go into detail about indole, pi electrons, conformation, etc. and receptor binding. I can, because I know about all of it, but it's going to require that you read a lot of "lame terms." If you can accept the conventional wisdom of the group on some issues, then why do you seem to be selectively ignoring that wisdom on other issues.

The paper from J. Med. Chem. is excellent and describes the similarities in receptor binding, which is how bromo-dragonfly was designed (the authors studies the similarities in LSD and psilocybin binding and had a computer predict a drug that would bind the same receptor more effectively - their prediction was correct and bromo-dragonfly was born). The authors start their paper by saying:
"A major focus of our research for a number of years has been to understand the structure-activity relationship (SAR) of classical hallucinogens and their derivatives , the pharmacological action of which is believed to be mediated primarily by agonist activity at the serotonin 5-HT2A receptor. In particular, we have sought to understand the relationship between the modes of binding of the hallucinogens containing an indole nucleus, including LSD and psilocybin . . ."

The article from Neuropsychopharmacology says that LSD, psilocin and many phenethylamines bind 5HT-2A in similar fashion and this is believed responsible for their effects (note the diversity in compounds binding the receptor, but psilocin and LSD are pretty similar in structure).

Note that cross-tolerance occurs between LSD and psilocybin, which is another, very strong indication of similar receptor binding (this is basically indisputable evidence that both substances share almost exactly the same mechanism of action). This is from David E. Nichols's article.

- Glennon, R A. Arylalkylamine Drugs of Abuse: An Overview of Drug Discrimination Studies. Pharmacology, Biochemistry & Behaviour. 64, pp. 251 - 256. (1999)

- Parker, M A. et al. A Novel (Benzodifuranyl)aminoalkane with Extremely Potent Activity at the 5HT-2A Receptor. Journal of Medicinal Chemistry. 41, pp. 5148 - 5149. (1998)

- Aghajanian, G K. and Marek, G J. Serotonin-Glutamate Interactions: A New Target for Antipsychotic Drugs. Neuropsychopharmacology. 21, pp. S122 - S133. (1999)

- Nichols, D E. Hallucinogens. Pharmacology & Therapeutics. 101, pp. 131 - 181. (2004)

Do you want more? Anything you're not clear on?

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
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