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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Alan Watts
    #5629743 -

I think its about time i have made this post. I have litsened to over 4 days of his lectures, just finished reading "The Way of Zen" and read "The Book". Allan Watts has completely changed my life. He has helped me to realize more about the universe, society, and my self. Just wondering what you guys think about his ideas and Zen in general.


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"Truth is more in the process than in the result."
- J. Krishnamurti




"We ourselves are not an illusory part of Reality; rather are we Reality itself illusorily conceived." Wei Wu Wei

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Re: Alan Watts [Re: hot48yearolds]
    #5629842 -

one of my favorites!


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Icelander]
    #5630135 -

I really really enjoy reading and listening to him. The Book is wonderful.

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Re: Alan Watts [Re: hot48yearolds]
    #5630368 -

Too bad Alan Watts was unable to control his own life making his 'teachings' highly suspect.

FREEDOM & LICENSE From James Ishmael Ford, Valley Unitarian Universalist Church Chandler, AZ, 5/29/99

A "Monkey Mind" Column

Lately, I've found myself thinking a lot about those old issues of freedom and license. As a child of the nineteen sixties, I'm slightly inclined to the license part. I like thinking as I please. I like acting as I please. And, I don't like thinking about consequences.

Of course, that can be a dangerous game. One of the people I really liked as a youth was the English spiritual interpreter of things Eastern, Alan Watts. He wrote what I believe was the very first book I ever read on Zen. It was more or less a popularization of the rather more dense writings of the Japanese scholar D. T. Suzuki. And it was, for its time, a very good introduction. However, Watts had a continuing hidden agenda in his various writings on Zen and other Eastern spiritualities. That agenda was what I would characterize as Watts' penchant for license.

He believed that all those East Asian spiritual traditions, and particularly Zen, were about spontaneity. By this, as near as I can tell, he seemed to mean doing his own thing. (A very sixties term, don't you think?) In this he inclined to the spirit of license, very much. At least it seems so to me. When I met him near the end of his career he was soaked to the gills and nipping at a flask. His eyes were a nightmare to behold. No doubt alcoholism was a major contributor to his death. He followed his own way, to hell with the consequences.

Of course in the real world there are always consequences. For me Watts decline into an alcoholic haze was a consequence of his not believing in any kind of restraints. There can, obviously, be many other factors involved. But, here I see a corollary between his following any desire unchecked and the consequence of drinking too heavily for too long. I found Watts' end a harsh presentation of the truth of causality.

We are all connected. What is done affects or effects many things. I suppose there may be actions without consequences, small or great, but I can't really imagine what such an action might be. In my experience everything I do has a consequence, or many. And for me, the Alan Watts I encountered at the beginning of my spiritual quest was a manifested warning. One I hope I've not ever forgotten.


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I'm Sporetacus!

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Re: Alan Watts [Re: hot48yearolds]
    #5630375 -

I'm reading "the Way of Zen" right naw.

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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5630404 -

Everyone is suspect. I have used some of Alans ideas (which he got from somewhere) and used them to some benefit whether he could or not. I've never been attached to what he does because that's his business and if he cannot practice what he preaches or some such that's not a condemnation of the ideas he presents. He did what he could and he was weak and that's what you can say about him. Some of the ideas are sound IMO and I verified them in other places besides his books.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Icelander]
    #5630446 -

Not to mention, if an idea rings as true and helps you, I dont think it matters who wrote it or what they did 10 years later.

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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Icelander]
    #5630462 -

I hear ya, honestly I do. I am just so tired of self-proclaimed authorities telling everyone "here is how to arrive at the mountain peak" when they haven't arrived. So how can they know with any certainty their map has any value?

It is like the author of a book called "How to Manifest Money" who is $50,000 in debt and living at the YMCA. His prinicples (like Watts)may be sound, but if the author cannot or will not follow his/her prescription, the reader cannot tell if the teachings or the teacher or both have any practical merit a priori to years of self-experimentation by the reader.


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I'm Sporetacus!

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Re: Alan Watts [Re: michael_lifshitz]
    #5630472 -

Quote:
Not to mention, if an idea rings as true


Not a good indicator of any truth - sorry. KKK teachings 'ring true' to many folks.

Quote:
helps you


True, but I want to know AHEAD OF TIME if the map has some validity - otherwise I could follow an endless number of dead-end trails.


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I'm Sporetacus!

Edited by Sporetacus (05/15/06 02:13 AM)

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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5630828 -

>> Too bad Alan Watts was unable to control his own life making his 'teachings' highly suspect.

>> But, here I see a corollary between his following any desire unchecked and the consequence of drinking too heavily for too long. I found Watts' end a harsh presentation of the truth of causality.

I get a different impression from the article.

It sounds like his death was probably his most powerfully resounding teaching. Words fade in to obscurity, but examples are like immovable mountains. Taking the whole picture of Alan Watts' life, there is no part of it which does not serve as a lesson to us. From our point of view, this something of immense purity to behold. Sure, we can cast doubt on his teachings by observing how his life ended, but that leaves us feeling disillusioned and unhappy. Far more beneficial it is to be humbled by the tremendous meaning of both his life and teachings, as well as the dangers he revealed to us through the example of his later years.


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:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5630857 -

Icelander said: He did what he could and he was weak and that's what you can say about him.


What was weak?

He was an intelligent man, he knew what he was doing.

He made a choice.


Quote:
Sporetacus said:
I am just so tired of self-proclaimed authorities telling everyone "here is how to arrive at the mountain peak" when they haven't arrived.


He wasn't a self-proclaimed authority.

He stated very clearly that he was not a guru nor a teacher.

If you want to listen you can.

"I speak in the same way water flows down a stream, if a thirsty traveler comes across the stream and wants to take a drink he's free to do so." -Alan Watts

Wonderful man.

What does it mean to "arrive at the mountain peak"?

Perfection?


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Re: Alan Watts [Re: TheHateCamel]
    #5630878 -

Quote:
He wasn't a self-proclaimed authority.



I see. A man who writes and lectures about about the 'true' nature of reality and how to contact your own divinity could be better described as an __________ ?

Quote:
He stated very clearly that he was not a guru nor a teacher.


And Nixon stated very clearly that he was "not a crook".


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I'm Sporetacus!

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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5631676 -

Sporetacus said:
I hear ya, honestly I do. I am just so tired of self-proclaimed authorities telling everyone "here is how to arrive at the mountain peak" when they haven't arrived. So how can they know with any certainty their map has any value?

It is like the author of a book called "How to Manifest Money" who is $50,000 in debt and living at the YMCA. His prinicples (like Watts)may be sound, but if the author cannot or will not follow his/her prescription, the reader cannot tell if the teachings or the teacher or both have any practical merit a priori to years of self-experimentation by the reader.


And I hear you to. I really do. I agree too. But you need to look at yourself (me too). I have often given (good) advice and then at sometime down the road found myself not taking it.

Sporetacus, I think the problem is really that people start to worship these people and their facade. That's just weak and lazy and unskillful. They want someone to tell them how to live. Then that so called teacher may start to believe in all these people telling them their something special and that really looks yucky indeed.

Better to take what works and you can verify, whereever you find it, and do your best to forget where you learned it. As I said "everyone is suspect".


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Icelander]
    #5632098 -

I think he died for our sins.


--------------------
"Truth is more in the process than in the result."
- J. Krishnamurti




"We ourselves are not an illusory part of Reality; rather are we Reality itself illusorily conceived." Wei Wu Wei

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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5632113 -

How much Alan Watts have you read?

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Re: Alan Watts [Re: hot48yearolds]
    #5632479 -

I've read Watts' Meditation book on an audiobook, and have been listening to 10 CDs so far from his lecture torrent posted here a little back.

Even though he may not have followed his own teachings, he is a great introduction to Japanese Zen to a Western man. And learning about any religion is extremely beneficial to understanding people and our world, for it is a dense packet of knowledge collected for hundreds or thousands of years.


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010001100100001001000101!

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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5633149 -

"I hear ya, honestly I do. I am just so tired of self-proclaimed authorities telling everyone "here is how to arrive at the mountain peak" when they haven't arrived. So how can they know with any certainty their map has any value?"

Just because one can make it to the peak does not mean that they can not fall off. Any human is flawed.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5633184 -

Why do y'all make this more complicated than it needs to be? If the teacher cannot follow their own teachings what does that say about the nature of the teachings or their method of instruction?

I never offer to take on a student until I first dominate them. This is not about ego, but about showing them that my techniques and approach have REAL-WORLD value. Would one study under a physically strong and capable sensei if an untrained student could whip his ass easily? Me no think so.


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I'm Sporetacus!

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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5633206 -

People backslide. We all do it to one degree or another. That does not invalidate the man's work. If it is good work then it remains good work no matter what. I have myself fallen into that pit of despair....someday I may again....but I hope I am smarter than that. In any case we are all flawed and we are all capable of great things at the same time.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5634298 -

But Alan Watts's teachings HAVE had real world value, so I dont care at all what happened to him. Not a bit.

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