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Offlinehot48yearolds
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Alan Watts
    #5629743 - 05/14/06 07:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I think its about time i have made this post. I have litsened to over 4 days of his lectures, just finished reading "The Way of Zen" and read "The Book". Allan Watts has completely changed my life. He has helped me to realize more about the universe, society, and my self. Just wondering what you guys think about his ideas and Zen in general.


--------------------
"Truth is more in the process than in the result."
- J. Krishnamurti




"We ourselves are not an illusory part of Reality; rather are we Reality itself illusorily conceived." Wei Wu Wei


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: hot48yearolds]
    #5629842 - 05/14/06 08:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

one of my favorites!


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinemichael_lifshitz
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Icelander]
    #5630135 - 05/14/06 09:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I really really enjoy reading and listening to him. The Book is wonderful.


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: hot48yearolds]
    #5630368 - 05/14/06 10:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Too bad Alan Watts was unable to control his own life making his 'teachings' highly suspect.

FREEDOM & LICENSE From James Ishmael Ford, Valley Unitarian Universalist Church Chandler, AZ, 5/29/99

A "Monkey Mind" Column

Lately, I've found myself thinking a lot about those old issues of freedom and license. As a child of the nineteen sixties, I'm slightly inclined to the license part. I like thinking as I please. I like acting as I please. And, I don't like thinking about consequences.

Of course, that can be a dangerous game. One of the people I really liked as a youth was the English spiritual interpreter of things Eastern, Alan Watts. He wrote what I believe was the very first book I ever read on Zen. It was more or less a popularization of the rather more dense writings of the Japanese scholar D. T. Suzuki. And it was, for its time, a very good introduction. However, Watts had a continuing hidden agenda in his various writings on Zen and other Eastern spiritualities. That agenda was what I would characterize as Watts' penchant for license.

He believed that all those East Asian spiritual traditions, and particularly Zen, were about spontaneity. By this, as near as I can tell, he seemed to mean doing his own thing. (A very sixties term, don't you think?) In this he inclined to the spirit of license, very much. At least it seems so to me. When I met him near the end of his career he was soaked to the gills and nipping at a flask. His eyes were a nightmare to behold. No doubt alcoholism was a major contributor to his death. He followed his own way, to hell with the consequences.

Of course in the real world there are always consequences. For me Watts decline into an alcoholic haze was a consequence of his not believing in any kind of restraints. There can, obviously, be many other factors involved. But, here I see a corollary between his following any desire unchecked and the consequence of drinking too heavily for too long. I found Watts' end a harsh presentation of the truth of causality.

We are all connected. What is done affects or effects many things. I suppose there may be actions without consequences, small or great, but I can't really imagine what such an action might be. In my experience everything I do has a consequence, or many. And for me, the Alan Watts I encountered at the beginning of my spiritual quest was a manifested warning. One I hope I've not ever forgotten.


--------------------
I'm Sporetacus!


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: hot48yearolds]
    #5630375 - 05/14/06 10:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I'm reading "the Way of Zen" right naw.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5630404 - 05/14/06 10:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Everyone is suspect. I have used some of Alans ideas (which he got from somewhere) and used them to some benefit whether he could or not. I've never been attached to what he does because that's his business and if he cannot practice what he preaches or some such that's not a condemnation of the ideas he presents. He did what he could and he was weak and that's what you can say about him. Some of the ideas are sound IMO and I verified them in other places besides his books.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinemichael_lifshitz
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Icelander]
    #5630446 - 05/14/06 10:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Not to mention, if an idea rings as true and helps you, I dont think it matters who wrote it or what they did 10 years later.


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Icelander]
    #5630462 - 05/14/06 10:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I hear ya, honestly I do. I am just so tired of self-proclaimed authorities telling everyone "here is how to arrive at the mountain peak" when they haven't arrived. So how can they know with any certainty their map has any value?

It is like the author of a book called "How to Manifest Money" who is $50,000 in debt and living at the YMCA. His prinicples (like Watts)may be sound, but if the author cannot or will not follow his/her prescription, the reader cannot tell if the teachings or the teacher or both have any practical merit a priori to years of self-experimentation by the reader.


--------------------
I'm Sporetacus!


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: michael_lifshitz]
    #5630472 - 05/14/06 10:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Not to mention, if an idea rings as true



Not a good indicator of any truth - sorry. KKK teachings 'ring true' to many folks.

Quote:

helps you



True, but I want to know AHEAD OF TIME if the map has some validity - otherwise I could follow an endless number of dead-end trails.


--------------------
I'm Sporetacus!


Edited by Sporetacus (05/15/06 12:13 AM)


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OfflinePed
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5630828 - 05/15/06 12:10 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

>> Too bad Alan Watts was unable to control his own life making his 'teachings' highly suspect.

>> But, here I see a corollary between his following any desire unchecked and the consequence of drinking too heavily for too long. I found Watts' end a harsh presentation of the truth of causality.

I get a different impression from the article.

It sounds like his death was probably his most powerfully resounding teaching. Words fade in to obscurity, but examples are like immovable mountains. Taking the whole picture of Alan Watts' life, there is no part of it which does not serve as a lesson to us. From our point of view, this something of immense purity to behold. Sure, we can cast doubt on his teachings by observing how his life ended, but that leaves us feeling disillusioned and unhappy. Far more beneficial it is to be humbled by the tremendous meaning of both his life and teachings, as well as the dangers he revealed to us through the example of his later years.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


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InvisibleTheHateCamel
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5630857 - 05/15/06 12:21 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said: He did what he could and he was weak and that's what you can say about him.




What was weak?

He was an intelligent man, he knew what he was doing.

He made a choice.


Quote:

Sporetacus said:
I am just so tired of self-proclaimed authorities telling everyone "here is how to arrive at the mountain peak" when they haven't arrived.




He wasn't a self-proclaimed authority.

He stated very clearly that he was not a guru nor a teacher.

If you want to listen you can.

"I speak in the same way water flows down a stream, if a thirsty traveler comes across the stream and wants to take a drink he's free to do so." -Alan Watts

Wonderful man.

What does it mean to "arrive at the mountain peak"?

Perfection?



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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: TheHateCamel]
    #5630878 - 05/15/06 12:26 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

He wasn't a self-proclaimed authority.




I see. A man who writes and lectures about about the 'true' nature of reality and how to contact your own divinity could be better described as an __________ ?

Quote:

He stated very clearly that he was not a guru nor a teacher.



And Nixon stated very clearly that he was "not a crook".


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I'm Sporetacus!


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5631676 - 05/15/06 08:45 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sporetacus said:
I hear ya, honestly I do. I am just so tired of self-proclaimed authorities telling everyone "here is how to arrive at the mountain peak" when they haven't arrived. So how can they know with any certainty their map has any value?

It is like the author of a book called "How to Manifest Money" who is $50,000 in debt and living at the YMCA. His prinicples (like Watts)may be sound, but if the author cannot or will not follow his/her prescription, the reader cannot tell if the teachings or the teacher or both have any practical merit a priori to years of self-experimentation by the reader.




And I hear you to. I really do. I agree too. But you need to look at yourself (me too). I have often given (good) advice and then at sometime down the road found myself not taking it.

Sporetacus, I think the problem is really that people start to worship these people and their facade. That's just weak and lazy and unskillful. They want someone to tell them how to live. Then that so called teacher may start to believe in all these people telling them their something special and that really looks yucky indeed.

Better to take what works and you can verify, whereever you find it, and do your best to forget where you learned it. As I said "everyone is suspect".


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinehot48yearolds
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Icelander]
    #5632098 - 05/15/06 11:13 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I think he died for our sins.


--------------------
"Truth is more in the process than in the result."
- J. Krishnamurti




"We ourselves are not an illusory part of Reality; rather are we Reality itself illusorily conceived." Wei Wu Wei


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5632113 - 05/15/06 11:17 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

How much Alan Watts have you read?


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: hot48yearolds]
    #5632479 - 05/15/06 01:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I've read Watts' Meditation book on an audiobook, and have been listening to 10 CDs so far from his lecture torrent posted here a little back.

Even though he may not have followed his own teachings, he is a great introduction to Japanese Zen to a Western man. And learning about any religion is extremely beneficial to understanding people and our world, for it is a dense packet of knowledge collected for hundreds or thousands of years.


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010001100100001001000101!


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5633149 - 05/15/06 03:20 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"I hear ya, honestly I do. I am just so tired of self-proclaimed authorities telling everyone "here is how to arrive at the mountain peak" when they haven't arrived. So how can they know with any certainty their map has any value?"

Just because one can make it to the peak does not mean that they can not fall off. Any human is flawed.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5633184 - 05/15/06 03:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Why do y'all make this more complicated than it needs to be? If the teacher cannot follow their own teachings what does that say about the nature of the teachings or their method of instruction?

I never offer to take on a student until I first dominate them. This is not about ego, but about showing them that my techniques and approach have REAL-WORLD value. Would one study under a physically strong and capable sensei if an untrained student could whip his ass easily? Me no think so.


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I'm Sporetacus!


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5633206 - 05/15/06 03:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

People backslide. We all do it to one degree or another. That does not invalidate the man's work. If it is good work then it remains good work no matter what. I have myself fallen into that pit of despair....someday I may again....but I hope I am smarter than that. In any case we are all flawed and we are all capable of great things at the same time.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinemichael_lifshitz
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5634298 - 05/15/06 07:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

But Alan Watts's teachings HAVE had real world value, so I dont care at all what happened to him. Not a bit.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5634353 - 05/15/06 07:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sporetacus said:
Why do y'all make this more complicated than it needs to be? If the teacher cannot follow their own teachings what does that say about the nature of the teachings or their method of instruction?




This thinking is so black and white that I wonder how you yourself can believe it. You're talking about superman right? The perfect man. You can take your statement to ridiculous extremes. One bad moment or slip and it's all shot because for that one second the teacher did not follow his teaching. No one is perfect at all moments. You're talking about Gurus and Gods and I thought you didn't believe in that nonsense.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5635287 - 05/15/06 09:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
How much Alan Watts have you read?




Well, Mr Sporetacus?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5635308 - 05/15/06 10:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I imagine he's read quite a bit of Watts in the past. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflinePed
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5635560 - 05/15/06 11:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

>> I never offer to take on a student until I first dominate them.

I'm not sure if this kind of moral violence is the way to lead people out of their miseries. Alan Watts' life and teachings have helped many people walk out of their miseries, and the example he showed in his alcoholism has helped many people avoid that same misery. From our point of view, his whole life has been a positive example inasmuch as both his successes and failures have shown us the nature of suffering. There is no point in evaluating a teacher for the fidelity of his behaviour; this just causes us to become deaf to any wisdom that could otherwise be gained by listening. We cannot judge a teacher's validity in this way because there is no "right person" with the "right way." There is only that which functions to liberate, and that which functions to imprison. Both of these are entirely dependent on you and your own tendencies of consciousness.

Imposing the "real-world" on people, and dominating their views with your own because yours are more "true" to the "real-world" is not going to help anybody. It is only going to make matters worse. It encourages doubt and insubordination, causes otherwise pure teachings to degenerate, and brings about a spirit of hierarchy that destroys all spiritual awareness. No one can correctly dominate one view with another, because the "right person" with the "right way" arises only in dependence upon the inclinations and intentions of the student.


>> This is not about ego, but about showing them that my techniques and approach have REAL-WORLD value.

The ego functions in two ways. It's existence depends upon two habituated modes of consciousness. These are: 1) supposing that a "real-world" exists, that we our self exist in and have a qualified understanding of it, and 2) imposing that view upon others, or our own experience.

Essentially, what are you are saying is in the very nature of ego. Saying that it's "not about ego" is a complete contradiction. Your sentence contains all the ingredients of utter egocentricity, and has at it's heart the very condition sustaining all egocentricity: the ego not realizing ego.



--------------------


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Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


Edited by Ped (05/15/06 11:14 PM)


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Offlinehot48yearolds
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Icelander]
    #5635563 - 05/15/06 11:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I didnt post this topic to discuss his death...


--------------------
"Truth is more in the process than in the result."
- J. Krishnamurti




"We ourselves are not an illusory part of Reality; rather are we Reality itself illusorily conceived." Wei Wu Wei


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Icelander]
    #5635739 - 05/15/06 11:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

This thinking is so black and white that I wonder how you yourself can believe it. You're talking about superman right? The perfect man. You can take your statement to ridiculous extremes. One bad moment or slip and it's all shot because for that one second the teacher did not follow his teaching. No one is perfect at all moments. You're talking about Gurus and Gods and I thought you didn't believe in that nonsense.





A question is not a statement my northern friend; nor did you attempt to answer my questions. The concept of perfection was never mentioned except by you.


--------------------
I'm Sporetacus!


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Ped]
    #5635762 - 05/15/06 11:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I'm not sure if this kind of moral violence




:rofl2:

You quack me up with your high and mighty posturing. I am sure that you negotiated for the lowest possible salary when taking your current job as to do otherwise would be competitive and 'morally violent'.

In a friendly competition bewteen two consenting adults there is no violence; moral or otherwise. What there is is two students testing their knowledge and skills in the crucible of reality.


--------------------
I'm Sporetacus!


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5636680 - 05/16/06 08:30 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"In a friendly competition bewteen two consenting adults there is no violence; moral or otherwise. What there is is two students testing their knowledge and skills in the crucible of reality."

Well put.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5636759 - 05/16/06 09:06 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sporetacus said:
Quote:

This thinking is so black and white that I wonder how you yourself can believe it. You're talking about superman right? The perfect man. You can take your statement to ridiculous extremes. One bad moment or slip and it's all shot because for that one second the teacher did not follow his teaching. No one is perfect at all moments. You're talking about Gurus and Gods and I thought you didn't believe in that nonsense.





A question is not a statement my northern friend; nor did you attempt to answer my questions. The concept of perfection was never mentioned except by you.




I answered your question in two (count em) of my previous posts.

I maintain your thinking is black and white. No human has ever lived up to their teachings in my estimation. Have you every broken one of your own rules of strategy on the court? If so then your teaching is flawed and you cannot be trusted.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Icelander]
    #5637237 - 05/16/06 12:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

and you cannot be trusted




:shiftyeyes:

Once again not talking about making errors. If Watts was never enlightened then he is not fit to talk about it. If he is teaching  'living in the now' and finds alcohol as the means to that end rather than meditation and awareness then he is a dangerous teacher.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5637305 - 05/16/06 12:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

How do you know that Watts never had the experience of enlightenment or living in the now? In my guess it's a passing experience. I believe (but do not know) many have had this experience and over time go on to crash and burn like many folk without the experience. It doesn't promise permanence.

Look my friend. I generally understand and agree with your point to a point.  :grin: I also know from experience that I can get ideas from people like Watts and can then go off and explore them to my great benefit. Even if he just read it or postulated it without experience he put the ideas in my head. I personally believe that he was aware of many things that he could not accomplish in fullness in his own life.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Icelander]
    #5637418 - 05/16/06 01:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, he may have experienced the now under the stars, then went home had a stiff drink and beat his wife. That sort of temporary feeling is to be cultivated though years of zazen and then forgotten in the next moment. How is that conducive to growth?


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I'm Sporetacus!


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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5637474 - 05/16/06 01:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I never said he lost it in the next moment. The residuals may have affected the rest of his life. Fortuantely I don't need to defend him or his actions, and now I am tired of this. You understand my perspective and don't see it as valid. I see yours and I do see some validity in it and also in mine. I'm satisfied. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Icelander]
    #5637512 - 05/16/06 01:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The residuals may have affected the rest of his life.




His short, liver-damaged life.

Seems his eloquent use of words is more important than any example he set.

BTW, I NEVER tire of useless back & forth posts.  :grin:


--------------------
I'm Sporetacus!


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5637551 - 05/16/06 01:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

BTW, I NEVER tire of useless back & forth posts.

Then you win. :thumbup: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Icelander]
    #5638531 - 05/16/06 05:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Then you win. :thumbup: :heart:




Not if I will have anything to do with it. :smirk:

Back in the day, you'd have great sparring partners, like crunchytoast, but nowadays they are all whiny punks who can't even stay on track. :frown:

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5639114 - 05/16/06 07:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sporetacus said:
Yes, he may have experienced the now under the stars, then went home had a stiff drink and beat his wife. That sort of temporary feeling is to be cultivated though years of zazen and then forgotten in the next moment. How is that conducive to growth?




True Zen is continous and loving. It is constant growth, and anything else is stagnation or decay, because one gets caught up with concepts and imagination and neglects the present which is the only place that growth can occur.

I agree with Icelander: simply because he didn't practice what he preached (and assuming that the article you posted was completely unbiased), it does not mean that what he preached was less valid. Idle speculation on why he ended up the way he did is pointless, because there are many possibilities.

Regardless, the information he conveys, which is what is actually important, is articulate and I have talked to many who have found his teachings useful.

As with any study of knowledge, limiting yourself to only one resource is foolish. I'm not sure if any one single author could possibly accurately and totally convey an entire spiritual tradition through the written word. That's why it's crucial to get input from many authors and sources when gathering knowledge.

Thus, one ought to integrate in Watts' teachings. As the Buddha says, find out for yourself, don't take his word for it. But don't simply brush it aside merely because you don't approve of the author's lifestyle. You will never once hear or read him advocating being an alcoholic in his books and speeches.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: dblaney]
    #5639388 - 05/16/06 08:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

You will never once hear or read him advocating being an alcoholic in his books and speeches.





Nope. Nor did Jim Jones advocate drinking poisoned Kool-aid.

Rajneesh was also a great intellectual writer who ended up surrounded by gun-toting psychos and lost in material gluttony.

Maybe, just maybe, the teachings truly are not worth that much. Perhaps they lead nowhere, are impossible to follow or merely sound good when reading.


--------------------
I'm Sporetacus!


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5639416 - 05/16/06 08:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The worth depends on the individual. Spiritual truth is merely subjective. One persons wisdom is another persons poison. Many great leaders are corrupted by wealth...some just lose faith.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5639467 - 05/16/06 09:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Maybe, just maybe, the teachings truly are not worth that much. Perhaps they lead nowhere, are impossible to follow or merely sound good when reading.

Good question. I have answered it for myself. So have you. We have different answers. How very interesting. That makes sense to me.

I learned a lot from the Rajneesh and especially at the end. I took it all in and wasn't attached to any of it. I didn't want to defend his teachings and so was able to see somewhat IMO clearly into all sides of this human. In the end his self-importance got him. Tricky coyote. :grin: Can you see the cosmic joke? It's on us. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflinePed
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Icelander]
    #5641442 - 05/17/06 10:47 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

>> Once again not talking about making errors. If Watts was never enlightened then he is not fit to talk about it. If he is teaching 'living in the now' and finds alcohol as the means to that end rather than meditation and awareness then he is a dangerous teacher.

Why should we remain hushed about freedom until we are free? That's so severe.

You are looking outside yourself for examples of some sort of static enlightened ideal. That is the "moral violence" of which you accuse me of being "high and mighty" about. When you build up expectations of others, you put yourself in a place of discordance with your experience, and the question of ethics becomes a violent one. The point I have been trying to make, if you're willing to listen to me instead of the imagination you have of me, is that the only real lesson to be gained form Alan Watts is to be taken in the context of your own life. You can see that alcoholism is not a place of liberation. You can see the kind of suffering that comes from it. And so from your point of view, these are wisdom's emphasized through the life and example of Alan Watts. From your perspective, this makes Alan Watts a qualified teacher. And for that matter, it makes any homeless drug addict on the street a qualified teacher.

The point I'm trying to make here is that spiritual life has to be kept humane, down to earth, in the here and now. If you insist on putting people into these boxes, constantly comparing their words with their behaviour, it is inhumane, and you will always, always find contradictions. As a result, you will never, ever have enough faith in anybody to gain any meaningful insights from them. Because it is an exploration guided by receiving feedback from imposing, it deserves the description "violent".

My spiritual guide has been a monk for 15 years, and he makes many mistakes. Sometimes he behaves in ways that are opposite to his message. But that doesn't matter. What matters that his heart is sincere, his discipline is genuine and dynamic, and he is journeying just like I am. He has faith in me, and I have faith in him, and in that open space we have the freedom to to grow, to smooth out our own rough edges, and to develop a good heart toward others.

By the same token, if we can have faith in everybody -- that is to say, if we can search with an open heart for the path to liberation in their words and example -- suddenly everyone becomes our spiritual guide. Because we see everyone as our spiritual guide, all we see is kindness. We are able not only to learn from everyone, but also to meet others exactly where they are, and to guide them from their own painful places as well. This is real kindness. It is kindness with ourself and others. When we are constantly critical of others, always searching for some kind of perfect integrity, we never have the opportunity to connect with them in a genuine and meaningful way, and the lessons we gain come with agitation and turbulence. This is what I mean by "moral violence."


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Ped]
    #5641588 - 05/17/06 11:31 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

This is an advanced perspective IMO, and is a good example of this subject. I adhere to your perspective and often advance it in these forums but at times am unable to follow my own advice.

To me it's all part of the step by step process of growth and without my failures and foibles growth does not happen for me.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Icelander]
    #5642838 - 05/17/06 05:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Alan Watts seems more like a scholar than a spiritual teacher.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5642865 - 05/17/06 05:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

A pundit for sure. Almost everyone is.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblekoppie
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5646563 - 05/18/06 02:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I agree broadly with the article you quoted. While I love listening to Watts, and his interpretations of life, he firmly remained a western scholar with a slightly simplified concept of zen. The zen-lunatic from Kerouac's Dharma Bums comes close to this concept, while mostly ignoring the ideas of duty, kindness and humility in zen that need to go hand in hand with spiritual development for it to be of any value. But then his books and lectures probably wouldn't be as popular as they were.

But to condemn him as a hypocrite for his alcoholism is going a bit far.

One zen saying is that small attachments are transformed to small satori while great attachments will be transformed into great satori.

Some of the greatest masters in the Soto Zen tradition, for instance the early 20th century reformer Kodo Sawaki and his student Taisen Deshimaru were alcoholics. Zen takes people as they are with all their flaws. Zen masters aren't saints. They were often rogues. Condemning them for not conforming to an essentially Christian idea of righteousness is projecting the values of one culture onto another and in my opinion inappropriate. If Watts lived by zen philosophy, then you should judge his success of failure by zen criteria.

Watts' mission was to popularize eastern philosophy in the West, and he succeeded remarkably, but his books and lectures are only an introduction into the subject and he never claimed they were anything else, if you want to have a real understanding of Zen or Hinduism or Daoism then you have to read the books by active practitioners in the field both ancient and contemporary.


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: koppie]
    #5646599 - 05/18/06 02:48 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Condemning them for not conforming to an essentially Christian idea of righteousness is projecting the values of one culture onto another




Escapism from The Now through alcohol has nothing to do with the Bible. Who is the one projecting here? *holds up mirror*


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5647245 - 05/18/06 06:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sporetacus said:
Quote:

Condemning them for not conforming to an essentially Christian idea of righteousness is projecting the values of one culture onto another




Escapism from The Now through alcohol has nothing to do with the Bible. Who is the one projecting here? *holds up mirror*




How do you know he was "escaping from the now"? Maybe he just wanted to be shitfaced while in the now. Really. How do you know? Maybe some are using racketball to escape from the now. Whatever the fuck that means. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Icelander]
    #5648080 - 05/18/06 10:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

How do you know he was "escaping from the now"?




Because genuine masters have said that alcohol is not compatable with Zen.


--------------------
I'm Sporetacus!


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5648155 - 05/18/06 10:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Everyone knows those who drink alcohol cannot study or write about Eastern thought.


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Offlinehot48yearolds
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5648244 - 05/18/06 10:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Alan Watts was not a buddhist guru himself, he was simply the the bridge between eastern thought and the western world. Basically everything that you guys are arguing about is pointless because he was not meant to practiced what he thought. His purpose was to teach people who couldnt speak japanese the philosophies of zen. You guys need to get your heads out of your asses. peace


--------------------
"Truth is more in the process than in the result."
- J. Krishnamurti




"We ourselves are not an illusory part of Reality; rather are we Reality itself illusorily conceived." Wei Wu Wei


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5648272 - 05/18/06 10:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
How much Alan Watts have you read?




Well, Mr Sporetacus?




:hissyfit:


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Invisiblekoppie
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5648895 - 05/19/06 02:00 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sporetacus said:
Quote:

How do you know he was "escaping from the now"?




Because genuine masters have said that alcohol is not compatable with Zen.




Please provide names and references. As I said in a previous post, some of the greatest minds both within and without zen were alcoholics. While I wish they weren't, the reality is that despite this weakness they were admirable human beings and great creators and I refuse to look down on them out of a protestant puritanism.

Of course the eight precepts frown on intoxication, and monastic rules prohibit alcohol.
And of course it's hard to realize that zen isn't a miracle cure for all the flaws in life. It's a disappointment when you see that even the most enlightened of beings still succumb to the lowest human weaknesses. If people who have devoted forty years of their lives to zen still can't control their urges, how is a mere beginner like me supposed to benefit?

As master Deshimaru once said, you don't need the ancient koans in books like the Gateless Gate to practice zen. Daily life throws up enough bewildering koans for us to ponder. The greatest advantage of this is that there isn't a book where you can find the official answers. You'll have to work it out for yourself.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: koppie]
    #5648934 - 05/19/06 02:21 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

As master Deshimaru once said, you don't need the ancient koans in books like the Gateless Gate to practice zen. Daily life throws up enough bewildering koans for us to ponder. The greatest advantage of this is that there isn't a book where you can find the official answers. You'll have to work it out for yourself.




Beautious!

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: Alan Watts [Re: koppie]
    #5649058 - 05/19/06 03:28 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

koppie said:
Quote:

Sporetacus said:
Quote:

How do you know he was "escaping from the now"?




Because genuine masters have said that alcohol is not compatable with Zen.




Please provide names and references. As I said in a previous post, some of the greatest minds both within and without zen were alcoholics. While I wish they weren't, the reality is that despite this weakness they were admirable human beings and great creators and I refuse to look down on them out of a protestant puritanism.

Of course the eight precepts frown on intoxication, and monastic rules prohibit alcohol.
And of course it's hard to realize that zen isn't a miracle cure for all the flaws in life. It's a disappointment when you see that even the most enlightened of beings still succumb to the lowest human weaknesses. If people who have devoted forty years of their lives to zen still can't control their urges, how is a mere beginner like me supposed to benefit?

As master Deshimaru once said, you don't need the ancient koans in books like the Gateless Gate to practice zen. Daily life throws up enough bewildering koans for us to ponder. The greatest advantage of this is that there isn't a book where you can find the official answers. You'll have to work it out for yourself.




Maybe a beginner like yourself can't practice zen. Perhaps the reason why it "worked" for the drunks is because their lives were a thousandfold more nightmarish than your own and that is why they needed the ideology of zen.

I have a friend that is going to start going to psychotherapy at the university. His psychotherapist is going to be a 24 year old grad student that had perfect grades (perfect grades are needed to get into the program) and probably had a very sheltered, stable life in a richer part of town. How is this person going to understand my friend, his broken, suicidal, passive-aggressive, manipulative, ad nauseum, family? How can the grad student understand the importance of beauty, art and the good life, for my friend, who might as well die without the meaning of these things to work for, with and against in his existence?


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Lakefingers]
    #5649135 - 05/19/06 04:54 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

this thread raised several interesting points which i would like to comment on. first of all in reguards to alan watts, i agree with those who stated that he was more of a scholar/translator of eastern disciplines than a spiritual teacher himself. this was the impression i got from the small amount of his work which i have read and he was quite gifted with language.

secondly id like to discuss the issue of whether a spiritual teacher must always practise what they preach. like ped said, this idea causes you to expect others to conform to some preconcieved ideal of how an enlightened being should behave and will always result in contradictions even when the teacher does practise what he preaches. in fact this very tactic is what swami would use over and over again in his attempts to invalidate spirituality and make people look foolish. for instance every time a certain spiritual teacher was mentioned (ram daas, deepak chopra anyone?) , swami would choose some aspect of their behavior or event from their past which didn't fit with his idea of how an enlightened being should act and claim this was proof they were a fraud, their teaching was invalid and their only motive was to sell books. in reality, a spiritual teacher (or organization) doesn't need to be perfect and doesn't need to never make mistakes in order to be effective. in fact there are many individuals like swami who will go to great lenghts to discredit any teacher or organization in existence.

that said, its still important to use disgression when selecting a spiritual teacher or teaching. ped gave the concept that everybody can be your spiritual teacher and while i agree with this, like icelander said, it is an advanced concept and depending on your level of spiritual growth you might benefit a lot from selecting a specific teacher. the fact that ped's teacher happens to be a monk shows that he believes in selecting a spiritual teacher based on merit, or at least believed this at one time. generally speaking, the higher the level of attainment of your teacher, the higher your teacher can help you rise too. afterall, why would you need a teacher if you had more attainment then your teacher? so it is perfectly valid to wish to select a teacher who practises what they preach, at least to a higher degree than alan watts did.

Quote:

This thinking is so black and white that I wonder how you yourself can believe it. You're talking about superman right? The perfect man. You can take your statement to ridiculous extremes. One bad moment or slip and it's all shot because for that one second the teacher did not follow his teaching. No one is perfect at all moments. You're talking about Gurus and Gods and I thought you didn't believe in that nonsense.




he didn't say he would only accept superman as his teacher, just someone who practises what they preach. this is by no means an unreasonable request. if you wanted to learn time management and good study habbits, would you observe your roommate who has both of those qualities or the guy down the hall who claims to know a lot about them but rarely actually studies?


Edited by Deviate (05/19/06 05:02 AM)


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Invisibleninjapixie
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: hot48yearolds]
    #5649207 - 05/19/06 06:13 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I think Alan Watts is like the gateway drug to eastern philosophy. He made it easy to understand such difficult concepts. He also liked to call himself an 'entertainer' rather then a guru.

'The Wisdom of Insecurity' is by far my favourite book of his. Unfortunately he preaches against alcoholism in that book which must put into question whether or not he believed what he said. I think he did at the time, but this puts into question the rest of his work.

Having listened to nearly all his lectures and read a few books, I got the impression that he never believed in the concept of 'enlightenment,' or at least not the concept of enlightenment people have before they get into eastern philosophies i.e. a permanent state of bliss/heaven/nirvana etc.

To me, he seemed to be saying that 'true' enlightenment is the realization that there is no enlightenment. I think knowing this belief of his puts a different perspective on his alcoholism.

Anyway, I think Alan Watts has been a great help to me in understanding eastern wisdom. Another great thing about him is he was absolutely hilarious.

Wow this is my first post in years. I really just had to give my opinion on Mr. Watts :smile:


--------------------
Put that monkey back in the oven.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5649424 - 05/19/06 08:49 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sporetacus said:
Quote:

How do you know he was "escaping from the now"?




Because genuine masters have said that alcohol is not compatible with Zen.




WTF is a genuine master? :tongue: :rolleyes: Can you name one and prove that he is a genuine master? And what do you or I know about what is compatible with Zen?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Deviate]
    #5649430 - 05/19/06 08:58 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
this thread raised several interesting points which i would like to comment on. first of all in reguards to alan watts, i agree with those who stated that he was more of a scholar/translator of eastern disciplines than a spiritual teacher himself. this was the impression i got from the small amount of his work which i have read and he was quite gifted with language.

secondly id like to discuss the issue of whether a spiritual teacher must always practise what they preach. like ped said, this idea causes you to expect others to conform to some preconcieved ideal of how an enlightened being should behave and will always result in contradictions even when the teacher does practise what he preaches. in fact this very tactic is what swami would use over and over again in his attempts to invalidate spirituality and make people look foolish. for instance every time a certain spiritual teacher was mentioned (ram daas, deepak chopra anyone?) , swami would choose some aspect of their behavior or event from their past which didn't fit with his idea of how an enlightened being should act and claim this was proof they were a fraud, their teaching was invalid and their only motive was to sell books. in reality, a spiritual teacher (or organization) doesn't need to be perfect and doesn't need to never make mistakes in order to be effective. in fact there are many individuals like swami who will go to great lenghts to discredit any teacher or organization in existence.

that said, its still important to use disgression when selecting a spiritual teacher or teaching. ped gave the concept that everybody can be your spiritual teacher and while i agree with this, like icelander said, it is an advanced concept and depending on your level of spiritual growth you might benefit a lot from selecting a specific teacher. the fact that ped's teacher happens to be a monk shows that he believes in selecting a spiritual teacher based on merit, or at least believed this at one time. generally speaking, the higher the level of attainment of your teacher, the higher your teacher can help you rise too. afterall, why would you need a teacher if you had more attainment then your teacher? so it is perfectly valid to wish to select a teacher who practises what they preach, at least to a higher degree than alan watts did.

Quote:

This thinking is so black and white that I wonder how you yourself can believe it. You're talking about superman right? The perfect man. You can take your statement to ridiculous extremes. One bad moment or slip and it's all shot because for that one second the teacher did not follow his teaching. No one is perfect at all moments. You're talking about Gurus and Gods and I thought you didn't believe in that nonsense.




he didn't say he would only accept superman as his teacher, just someone who practises what they preach. this is by no means an unreasonable request. if you wanted to learn time management and good study habbits, would you observe your roommate who has both of those qualities or the guy down the hall who claims to know a lot about them but rarely actually studies?




No one should be held to a consistent standard or norm, we are humans and we are in flux. We have no internal soliloquoy, our psyches are complex. Yet, as Nietzsche wrote, a philosopher must set a good example, else what is his philosophy but something that has nothing to do with the life we live -- then the philosophy is just more Christian/transcendentalist/ascetic/life-denying monomania.

Also, swami was very clever in his analytical approach, but he couldn't get beyond that -- not even to see how he contradicted himself according to the system of logic he held others to. However, none of us that care about open debate pay attention ad hominem attacks, unless we already dislike the person being attacked. And in such case we'll do anything to rub discredit in the face of those that believe the words of the attacked. And what's that? It's an attempt to discredit others based on name-calling and personal attacks; it is ressentiment.


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Lakefingers]
    #5650014 - 05/19/06 12:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Some here still don't quite understand the difference between a valid and an invalid ad hominem.

Invalid ad hominem: Physicist X's theorem is suspect because he was an alcoholic. In this case the theorem should stand or fall on it's own merits.

Valid ad hominem: Writer X' view on how to achieve inner peace and contentment is suspect because he was an alcoholic. In this case how the writer actually lived (and died) is a valid test of his theorem.


--------------------
I'm Sporetacus!


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Invisibledblaney
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Posts: 7,894
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5650056 - 05/19/06 12:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Invalid ad hominem: Physicist X's theorem is suspect because he was an alcoholic. In this case the theorem should stand or fall on it's own merits.

Peace and unrest are both physical phenomena (that is, arising out of the physical elements). Therefore, any suggestions aimed at achieving inner peace could easily be considered a theorem dealing with a physical phenomenon. So by this logic, a view on how to achieve inner peace and contentment should stand or fall on it's own merits, which means the practitioner tries out the techniques or suggestions and evaluates them to see if there is improvement.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: dblaney]
    #5650066 - 05/19/06 12:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

If the author invalidates his own theorem, then it is finished.


--------------------
I'm Sporetacus!


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5650075 - 05/19/06 12:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sporetacus said:
If the author invalidates his own theorem, then it is finished.



How can you be sure the author was following his own advice? Should we scrap Jefferson's words about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness because he owned slaves? Being a hypocrite doesn't prevent you from being right.


--------------------


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Silversoul]
    #5650086 - 05/19/06 12:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Being a hypocrite doesn't prevent you from being right.

I see. So how many folks still follow the teachings of Jim Jones?


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I'm Sporetacus!


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Invisibledblaney
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Posts: 7,894
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5650230 - 05/19/06 01:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

How do you know he invalidated his own theories?

Perhaps he was following his own writings but was missing a crucial piece of understanding. This doesn't make the other pieces less valid, it just means that one should study other sources to ensure that one gets whatever piece/s he may have been missing.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: dblaney]
    #5650254 - 05/19/06 01:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I see. One should spend 30 years doing spiritual practices that may be incomplete, erroneous or ineffectual because the author 'sounded cool'.

Multiply that times all the books in the philosophy sector - well, we just don't live that long - so I will check out the author himself.


--------------------
I'm Sporetacus!


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5650263 - 05/19/06 01:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

How have you done that? Reading about someones problems second hand doesn't necessarily tell you that much.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5650292 - 05/19/06 01:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

One should spend 30 years doing spiritual practices that may be incomplete, erroneous or ineffectual because the author 'sounded cool'.

No, that's not what I said at all.

I said that one should integrate insights and understanding presented by one source with those of other authors/sources, precisely because one source may be incomplete.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5650652 - 05/19/06 03:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sporetacus said:
Being a hypocrite doesn't prevent you from being right.

I see. So how many folks still follow the teachings of Jim Jones?



Straw man. I have not said that hypocrites are always right. All I said is that it does not prevent them from being right.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Silversoul]
    #5650666 - 05/19/06 03:34 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I think Jimmy J did the world a great service. :thumbup: Ever hear of population control and survival of the fittest? What if those people had reproduced?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Icelander]
    #5650812 - 05/19/06 04:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Ditto. if one cannot control their belief in such a way as to maintain their survival then nature will take it's course...it's evolution.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Alan Watts [Re: hot48yearolds]
    #5650899 - 05/19/06 04:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

hot48yearolds said:
Alan Watts was not a buddhist guru himself, he was simply the the bridge between eastern thought and the western world....You guys need to get your heads out of your asses.




:thumbup:


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Icelander]
    #5651125 - 05/19/06 06:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

What if those people had reproduced?





they did reproduce, many of them had children who did not partake in the suicide.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Deviate]
    #5651270 - 05/19/06 06:48 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

oh well, then at least they set an example for them.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSporetacus
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Registered: 04/19/06
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Icelander]
    #5651979 - 05/20/06 12:08 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

What I learned was to switch from grape to cherry flavor.


--------------------
I'm Sporetacus!


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5652515 - 05/20/06 07:36 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

One step at a time. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5652640 - 05/20/06 08:49 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I don't like to drink any kool-aid unless I make it myself.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: hot48yearolds]
    #5654496 - 05/20/06 08:42 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

There was a time when I really enjoyed Alan Watts books, but in retrospect I can't believe how many of them I've bought/read (surely must have been dozens). For the most part, the same information was presented in every book with only a handful of new thoughts. Personally I'd say just read through a couple or few of them, and save your time and money on other things.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflinePed
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #5655810 - 05/21/06 10:32 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

In thinking about this subject a little more deeply, and in contemplating some of the points raised in the continuation of this thread, I've arrived at some new conclusions.

Some of Sporetacus' points have important applications. Some of my own points have important applications. Each side has it's advantages and disadvantages. Incidentally, it seems as though the advantages and disadvantages of either view are in perfect opposition to each other, and in fact function to cancel any extremes that could arise from their application.

One view is that we must search for an exceptionally qualified teacher who meets our own standards for spiritual and ethical integrity if we are to make any spiritual progress. This has many benefits. It helps us find preliminary confidence in the instructions we receive and put in to practise. It helps us find the boundaries when we encounter troubling situations that exceed our present capacity. This view, however, also has many drawbacks. If relied upon too heavily, it can put us at odds with our teachers, fill us with doubts which destroy our spiritual life, and isolate us within a cacophony of confusing experiences.

The other view is that we should maintain an open inquisitiveness, deriving from life lessons wherever they happen to appear. This has many benefits. It is a view that makes everyone our spiritual guide, enabling us to progress swiftly, increasing our concentration and wisdom. It engages us with our experience, and brings great meaning to our whole life. If relied upon too heavily, however, this view has many drawbacks. For example, we might become arrogant and self-absorbed, develop ignorance toward valid spiritual instruction, and we may lose our spiritual bearings and end up lost in a hazy mist of subjectivism.

And so it seems like a blend of these two views is most appropriate. They balance each other out. Relying properly on the integrity of a qualified teacher, without being overly critical and probing his instructions pointlessly, will help keep us centred and give us spiritual direction. At the same time, keeping an open heart and searching for spiritual lessons from everyone we encounter and all the places we travel, propels us with great momentum in the direction of peace and happiness. It seems like a union of these two views might function like the laser beam that perfectly centres our intention upon correct spiritual targets.

We should of course always be cautious about who we listen to. If we adopt the kind of approach that I originally suggested, a view which makes us a "student of our own experience", that is to say, learning from many kinds of input without discrimination, we are in danger of carrying it to an extreme and becoming lost in self-absorption, and we shall make no genuine progress. It is helpful to have somebody else to rely on, and, if we are to rely on such a figure, we should be certain of their integrity. The criteria for this certainty, however, also has to be kept reasonable. If we are too critical and carry our rigidity to an extreme, we will become lost in doubt and disillusionment, deaf to any teachings we might receive, and we shall make no genuine progress.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


Edited by Ped (05/21/06 10:45 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Ped]
    #5655912 - 05/21/06 11:12 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You Buddhist's and your middle path. :grin: :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: Alan Watts [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5656015 - 05/21/06 11:56 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sporetacus said:
Some here still don't quite understand the difference between a valid and an invalid ad hominem.

Invalid ad hominem: Physicist X's theorem is suspect because he was an alcoholic. In this case the theorem should stand or fall on it's own merits.

Valid ad hominem: Writer X' view on how to achieve inner peace and contentment is suspect because he was an alcoholic. In this case how the writer actually lived (and died) is a valid test of his theorem.





Instead of some, you could say "you".

As I said if you hold the system to itself (that is of logical fallacies), you'll see it only contradicts itself:

all logical fallacies are appeals to authority *.



* -- see all my other posts (and Life) to discover the truthlessness of logic and analytical philosophy


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Offlinehot48yearolds
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Ped]
    #5656081 - 05/21/06 12:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
In thinking about this subject a little more deeply, and in contemplating some of the points raised in the continuation of this thread, I've arrived at some new conclusions.

Some of Sporetacus' points have important applications.  Some of my own points have important applications.  Each side has it's advantages and disadvantages.  Incidentally, it seems as though the advantages and disadvantages of either view are in perfect opposition to each other, and in fact function to cancel any extremes that could arise from their application.

One view is that we must search for an exceptionally qualified teacher who meets our own standards for spiritual and ethical integrity if we are to make any spiritual progress.  This has many benefits.  It helps us find preliminary confidence in the instructions we receive and put in to practise.  It helps us find the boundaries when we encounter troubling situations that exceed our present capacity.  This view, however, also has many drawbacks.  If relied upon too heavily, it can put us at odds with our teachers, fill us with doubts which destroy our spiritual life, and isolate us within a cacophony of confusing experiences.

The other view is that we should maintain an open inquisitiveness, deriving from life lessons wherever they happen to appear.  This has many benefits.  It is a view that makes everyone our spiritual guide, enabling us to progress swiftly, increasing our concentration and wisdom.  It engages us with our experience, and brings great meaning to our whole life.  If relied upon too heavily, however, this view has many drawbacks. For example, we might become arrogant and self-absorbed, develop ignorance toward valid spiritual instruction, and we may lose our spiritual bearings and end up lost in a hazy mist of subjectivism.

And so it seems like a blend of these two views is most appropriate.  They balance each other out.  Relying properly on the integrity of a qualified teacher, without being overly critical and probing his instructions pointlessly, will help keep us centred and give us spiritual direction.  At the same time, keeping an open heart and searching for spiritual lessons from everyone we encounter and all the places we travel, propels us with great momentum in the direction of peace and happiness.  It seems like a union of these two views might function like the laser beam that perfectly centres our intention upon correct spiritual targets.

We should of course always be cautious about who we listen to.  If we adopt the kind of approach that I originally suggested, a view which makes us a "student of our own experience", that is to say, learning from many kinds of input without discrimination, we are in danger of carrying it to an extreme and becoming lost in self-absorption, and we shall make no genuine progress.  It is helpful to have somebody else to rely on, and, if we are to rely on such a figure, we should be certain of their integrity.  The criteria for this certainty, however, also has to be kept reasonable.  If we are too critical and carry our rigidity to an extreme, we will become lost in doubt and disillusionment, deaf to any teachings we might receive, and we shall make no genuine progress.





Very good post. And my oppinion exactly.  :laugh: :thumbup:


--------------------
"Truth is more in the process than in the result."
- J. Krishnamurti




"We ourselves are not an illusory part of Reality; rather are we Reality itself illusorily conceived." Wei Wu Wei


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OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: Ped]
    #5656814 - 05/21/06 03:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
In thinking about this subject a little more deeply, and in contemplating some of the points raised in the continuation of this thread, I've arrived at some new conclusions.

Some of Sporetacus' points have important applications. Some of my own points have important applications. Each side has it's advantages and disadvantages. Incidentally, it seems as though the advantages and disadvantages of either view are in perfect opposition to each other, and in fact function to cancel any extremes that could arise from their application.

One view is that we must search for an exceptionally qualified teacher who meets our own standards for spiritual and ethical integrity if we are to make any spiritual progress. This has many benefits. It helps us find preliminary confidence in the instructions we receive and put in to practise. It helps us find the boundaries when we encounter troubling situations that exceed our present capacity. This view, however, also has many drawbacks. If relied upon too heavily, it can put us at odds with our teachers, fill us with doubts which destroy our spiritual life, and isolate us within a cacophony of confusing experiences.

The other view is that we should maintain an open inquisitiveness, deriving from life lessons wherever they happen to appear. This has many benefits. It is a view that makes everyone our spiritual guide, enabling us to progress swiftly, increasing our concentration and wisdom. It engages us with our experience, and brings great meaning to our whole life. If relied upon too heavily, however, this view has many drawbacks. For example, we might become arrogant and self-absorbed, develop ignorance toward valid spiritual instruction, and we may lose our spiritual bearings and end up lost in a hazy mist of subjectivism.

And so it seems like a blend of these two views is most appropriate. They balance each other out. Relying properly on the integrity of a qualified teacher, without being overly critical and probing his instructions pointlessly, will help keep us centred and give us spiritual direction. At the same time, keeping an open heart and searching for spiritual lessons from everyone we encounter and all the places we travel, propels us with great momentum in the direction of peace and happiness. It seems like a union of these two views might function like the laser beam that perfectly centres our intention upon correct spiritual targets.

We should of course always be cautious about who we listen to. If we adopt the kind of approach that I originally suggested, a view which makes us a "student of our own experience", that is to say, learning from many kinds of input without discrimination, we are in danger of carrying it to an extreme and becoming lost in self-absorption, and we shall make no genuine progress. It is helpful to have somebody else to rely on, and, if we are to rely on such a figure, we should be certain of their integrity. The criteria for this certainty, however, also has to be kept reasonable. If we are too critical and carry our rigidity to an extreme, we will become lost in doubt and disillusionment, deaf to any teachings we might receive, and we shall make no genuine progress.






this is precisely what i was trying to say.


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